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Fun With Wyters


dumuzid

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So, without getting into the details of the campaign I'm in, my character just became the priest of a newly founded community's wyter.  It's a weird community, and the resulting spirit is a bit odd as well (it's a huge spider with legs that become serpents' tails, bound to a bronze spear).  My GM and I haven't worked out all its mechanics, but he rolled a POW of 28 and CHA 11 while generating it.  My character gives it access to a spread of Darkness and Harmony magic, Rune and spirit; it will also have some more as-yet-undefined spirit powers.

I've played a fully initiated shaman in RQ:G, but the relationship between a wyter and its priest seems a little different.  This thing is a lot bigger than anything my shaman character directly bound, for one thing.  Any advice on what skills my character should look into to get the most out of their new friend?  Or thoughts on potential applications for the wyter out in the world?  The Bestiary mentions going on heroquests to establish wyters for a particular community, and going on further quests with them to empower the spirits further; my character has ready magical access to the Gods realm and is a lay member of the House of Black Arkat, so precision questing to enrich the wyter is definitely on the table.  The first Sacred Time after the community's founding is within a few in-game weeks too, so suggestions of anything jazzy that could be done with or for the wyter during those rites would be greatly appreciated.

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What was the wyter before it was a wyter? 

A wyter is powerful, but all of its abilities are hard to replenish community resources. Being the 'priest' is a big community responsibility, and irresponsible use of the wyter weakens the community. The most effective use is find methods that don't weaken the wyter much, and support it, rather than the other way around, like if it can attack as a shade then buff it and heal it. Even something as simple as spirit combat or spirit magic can come at a big cost  - any magic point loss isn't regenerated the next day, but last for the rest of the season until the holy day. So they aren't an everyday thing, but a turn the tide in a crisis thing. 

One big everyday use for it is just moving about and perceiving things. Decide where it always checks, use it to scout, keep it checking for threats to the community. 

And just its presence is enough to protect against some spirit attacks - many spirits won't attack if intimidated because their POW is much less. 

Lore skills that help you learn about the history of the community or the magic of the wyter are going to be very useful. A heroquest can demonstrate new aspects of the link with the wyter. You could find out what its enemies are, and the community could defend it, or you could take on the enemies of the community with its help, and thus forge a bond. You could investigate the wyters origins, and if it has a natural superior or ancestor talk and ask it for help. You could re-enact some ancient event of the past. Black Arkat probably knows a few secrets for making a spirit more powerful. 

A really cool ability can make a wyter much useful - look at the Lunar war spirit in the Beastiary, with its ability to cast a Madness spell for just magic points! 

Sounds like a fun campaign!

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Remember that you get to use its Magic Points as though it was an Allied Spirit.

The multi-targeting of Rune Magic can be very powerful, although it costs outright POW, which smarts. Still, you have a full community to feed it the POW back. I'm sure some judicious munchkinnery can find unusually abusable spells in this regard.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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53 minutes ago, davecake said:

What was the wyter before it was a wyter? 

This is an important question.  The wyter was brought into its current position and state by two connected magical acts: 1) the successful staging of a Unity Battle that included humans from several cults and societies, dark trolls and trollkin, centaurs and minotaurs, and Flamal elves, and 2) a ritual conducted by a genuine Seshnelan sorcerer among all the participants in the battle who wanted to continue working together and found a settlement.  The sorcerer framed what he intended as a gift to those assembled, but didn't explain in advance.  He asked a speaker from each contingent to name themselves and voice what they wanted from the ceremony.  Once everyone had spoken, his sorcery summoned the spirit into the center of the new community's site.  Either the sorcerer or the spirit called for something to house it in, and when others hesitated my character offered the bronze lance he used in the Unity Battle.  That is when the wyter-priest connection formed, and the last thing to happen in-game.

Both in and out of character, I don't know for certain whether the spirit came into being at that moment, or whether it was an older being called to a time and place that suited it.  The settlement site is very old, with several layers of previous habitation; the spirit could be a long-time resident, a composite of previous community guardians, something entirely new, or a mix of several such answers.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

A wyter is powerful, but all of its abilities are hard to replenish community resources. Being the 'priest' is a big community responsibility, and irresponsible use of the wyter weakens the community. The most effective use is find methods that don't weaken the wyter much, and support it, rather than the other way around, like if it can attack as a shade then buff it and heal it. Even something as simple as spirit combat or spirit magic can come at a big cost  - any magic point loss isn't regenerated the next day, but last for the rest of the season until the holy day. So they aren't an everyday thing, but a turn the tide in a crisis thing. 

The exact nature of the wyter's magic is still very much under development.  Right now its only fully defined characteristics are the POW and CHA.  All the wyters in the Bestiary have CHA, INT, POW, magic points, rune points, and 80+% ratings in at least one rune.  2/3rds of them have their own spirit and rune magic in addition to whatever their priests have; as you say later in your post, the Field School wyter doesn't have its own spread of magic, and can only cast rune spells its priest knows by spending permanent POW (though it does have rune points its priest can spend...), but can cast Madness with MP if its priest knows that spell.  I'm not the only one with input on this process, but I expect its final runes and magic to express the diverse powers the community's weird array of contributors brings.

As I write this, one obvious community heroquest that occurs to me would be seasonal and/or sacred time ceremonies to incorporate new cults and cultures into the community, and unlock their magical contribution to the wyter in the process.

MP regeneration is definitely an issue, but I think we have a built-in counter to in the nature of the wyter's community.  The contributors to the spell that created the wyter (and the Loyalty passion that underlies it) included cultists of Argan Argar, Ernalda, Maran Gor, Flamal, Arachne Solara, and Storm Bull.  The cults of the first two in the new community will be run by player characters, and wyters can be incorporated into the seasonal festivals of their community's gods.  I don't have the numbers at hand to do the math on it, but if every cult of the community incorporates the wyter into their seasonal rites it's likely to be brimming with MP.  Its own holy day is Godday, Harmony Week of each season.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

A really cool ability can make a wyter much useful - look at the Lunar war spirit in the Beastiary, with its ability to cast a Madness spell for just magic points! 

There's two powers independent of rune and spirit magic I'd definitely like to see in the wyter: Communication and Shape-change.  This community was founded on a Unity Battle, and one of my favorite elements of the Unity Battle myth is how Only Old One appeared to each group that contributed to the Unity Army as one of their own: always huge, dark and lordly, but as a human among humans, a dragonewt among dragonewts, etc.  I'd like for the wyter to be able to inhabit its priest and give them the ability to take the form, and use the language, of each society that's contributed to the new community.  Given its probably strong connections to Earth and Darkness it'd make sense for it to be able to form a body of its own from some mixture of those elements.  A bite attack makes sense for a spirit with both serpent and spider characteristics.

 

Finally, to get into this will require discussing some Smoking Ruin spoilers; any disinclined to see those, please avert your gaze:

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Lore skills that help you learn about the history of the community or the magic of the wyter are going to be very useful. A heroquest can demonstrate new aspects of the link with the wyter. You could find out what its enemies are, and the community could defend it, or you could take on the enemies of the community with its help, and thus forge a bond. You could investigate the wyters origins, and if it has a natural superior or ancestor talk and ask it for help. You could re-enact some ancient event of the past. Black Arkat probably knows a few secrets for making a spirit more powerful. 

We took over the Smoking Ruin.  The player characters in my campaign staged a Unity Battle against Vamargic, got the blessings of the Green and Red dragons to break the ruins' several long-term curses, and have formed a new little Unity Council of those participants in the Unity Army who wanted to settle in this powerfully magical place.  So, strictly speaking, we have Heroquesting options from the late 2nd Age hero plane stuff back all the way to the early Storm Age and foundational Orlanth & Ernalda myths to 'prove' the connections of this wyter to various stages of the Smoking Ruin's long history.  Most recently, the Unity Battle that led to the community's founding created its own traditional enemy in Thanatar-worshiping Tusk Riders who fought on Vamargic's side, who were driven off but not exterminated or negotiated with.  This weird snake-legged spider spirit might've woven the silk of Ernalda's wedding gown, or hidden in the shadows of Orlanth's cloak as he set off on the Lightbringers Quest.  It might've been a gift-servant to Ernalda on the wedding of her sister Esrola to Argan Argar.  I happily welcome any thoughts on ways to empower the wyter of such an ancient and potent place.

 

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One thing about Wyters and Rune Magic - they make no difference between one-use and re-useable Rune Magic, paying permanent POW equally for both. If your clan is willing to pay up a mere 10 POW, it could (if it knows the spell) resurrect 36 people after a battle or disaster (and if nothing else, those people should be willing to bear the POW cost!).

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How does Wyter POW regeneration work?  Is it really 1 for 1, i.e. after casting the 10-point Resurrection, if ten people from the community each give a POW the wyter's topped back up?

I'm gonna have to work out some Argan Argari 'if you offer POW to the town wyter, you're owed however much RP worth of magic from the community's initiates and priests' Equal Exchange scheme.

And a side question: wyters function as allied spirits in most respects.  Most characters can have only one allied spirit at a time.  Does being a wyter's priest fill that spiritual 'slot' for a character, preventing them from gaining a conventional allied spirit under most circumstances?

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13 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

How does Wyter POW regeneration work?  Is it really 1 for 1, i.e. after casting the 10-point Resurrection, if ten people from the community each give a POW the wyter's topped back up?

According to the rules, yes, but some wyters are listed as having Rune Points as well. So it might have a few RP that do regenerate normally by worship, and be able to spend POW in an emergency to cast more.

Quote

I'm gonna have to work out some Argan Argari 'if you offer POW to the town wyter, you're owed however much RP worth of magic from the community's initiates and priests' Equal Exchange scheme.

Giving POW to the wyter is a responsibility that everyone in the community has. If it needs it, someone has to step up. If you never buy a round, you don't get invited to the pub as often.

Quote

And a side question: wyters function as allied spirits in most respects.  Most characters can have only one allied spirit at a time.  Does being a wyter's priest fill that spiritual 'slot' for a character, preventing them from gaining a conventional allied spirit under most circumstances?

Queen Leika has both her own Allied Spirit and the Black Spear wyter.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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23 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

 

Queen Leika has both her own Allied Spirit and the Black Spear wyter.

You can even add a third kinda-Allied Spirit if you worship Daka Fal - an ancestor can become an impromptu Allied Spirit using Rune Magic. And since you can be Priest and Shaman simultaneously in Daka Fal, your Fetch acts as a fourth kinda-Allied Spirit.

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13 hours ago, dumuzid said:

And a side question: wyters function as allied spirits in most respects.  Most characters can have only one allied spirit at a time.  Does being a wyter's priest fill that spiritual 'slot' for a character, preventing them from gaining a conventional allied spirit under most circumstances?

In old school RQ2/3 talk, they are both in permanent Mind Link, at least when the wyter is in range. But an allied spirit is not the same, and you can have both - indeed, its pretty common, as the wyter 'priest' was likely a Rune Priest or Lord before they became 'priest'.

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The wyter will have INT 14, and probably the Spirit, Darkness and Harmony runes.  I'm lobbying for it to have the Resurrect rune spell, based on both the thematic appropriateness of the spell and posts here, but I don't have the final say on that.

At this point I'm really hoping to use the wyter as a deliberately spidery guardian for the community.  I want it to bind the community together with its web, detect and snare enemies, and metabolize them into new resources and guardians for the community.  Spirit magic to find and trap, spirit combat in conjunction with my character and other members of the community to overcome foes, then binding magic to weave defeated entities into the community's power structure.

When the game resumes it should be the evening of the wyter's first High Holy Day, and I'm hoping to squeeze a lot of juice out of that.

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On 2/26/2020 at 12:48 AM, Akhôrahil said:

For 23 POW, it could zap 101 enemies with Sever Spirit (in this case, pump it to its POW max beforehand - it will need the POW for penetration).

I'll point out the ambiguity in the write-up...

First it says "These abilities can be used against multiple targets by spending additional points of POW"... then says "Each point of POW spent lets the wyter use the ability on an additional five members of the community." (My emphasis)

I suspect this is intentional because that's what Wyters are all about, and so you wouldn't get that Sever Spirit against (so many) multiple targets. Buffs - yes. Combat - no.

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2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'll point out the ambiguity in the write-up...

First it says "These abilities can be used against multiple targets by spending additional points of POW"... then says "Each point of POW spent lets the wyter use the ability on an additional five members of the community." (My emphasis)

Dangit! So it’s really bad at smiting enemies, then.

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3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Dangit! So it’s really bad at smiting enemies, then.

You'll just have to initiate them sneakily.

Edited by Joerg
Wait, this wasn't the egregious munchkinnery thread?
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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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You can even add a third kinda-Allied Spirit if you worship Daka Fal - an ancestor can become an impromptu Allied Spirit using Rune Magic. And since you can be Priest and Shaman simultaneously in Daka Fal, your Fetch acts as a fourth kinda-Allied Spirit.

 

I think the limit there is your CHA based spirit limit (Cha/3 ? Cant recall off the top of my head). The Rune Magic for Spirit Teacher doesn't list limits...so you could in theory have several (although your going to spending a LOT of RP on extension and so on). We're into munchkin land here.  

Edited by Thaz
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21 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I think the limit there is your CHA based spirit limit (Cha/3 ? Cant recall off the top of my head). The Rune Magic for Spirit Teacher doesn't list limits...so you could in theory have several (although your going to spending a LOT of RP on extension and so on). We're into munchkin land here.  

I think we've already got that one 😛

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The wyter ability to add extra targets for extra POW is limited to community members by default. And that’s what you should expect for a standard wyter - it’s a powerful ability,  it at a huge cost (that’s points of POW not rune points), so it’s a thing you do in extremes. Running down the wyters POW weakens the community. 

But an individual wyter can have abilities that go far beyond that (such as the massive Madness blasts of the Lunar wyter in the bestiary, that only take magic points). It is normal for wyter to gain abilities, several if its for a community with a long history or is empowered by heroquests type magic.

its pretty unusual for wyters that aren’t created by a group of combat magicians to have wyter magic to do mass combat blasts like that though (and pretty usual for ones that are, but that’s mostly either the Lunar College of Magic or Argraths Sartar Magical Union in the broader Dragon Pass area). If you think it’s overpowered, don’t give your players control over a wyter with that sort of ability, easy*.

* well, unless you are laying through the Red Cow campaign using RuneQuest characters which gives PCs access to one, but that’s still constrained enough to be reasonable for most games. 

 

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On 2/25/2020 at 10:40 AM, Akhôrahil said:

One thing about Wyters and Rune Magic - they make no difference between one-use and re-useable Rune Magic, paying permanent POW equally for both. If your clan is willing to pay up a mere 10 POW, it could (if it knows the spell) resurrect 36 people after a battle or disaster (and if nothing else, those people should be willing to bear the POW cost!).

This opens up the question of whether the spirits of deceased members are still considered members of the community.

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Yes, Ancestors are part of the community, at least as long as they are summonable and have not moved on to some inaccessible afterlife (and they probably need to be accessible within the wyters range or summoned by magic at least - probably usually this means their remains/tombs in the community lands?) 

The Humakt cult may sometimes Bind Ghosts to a place. Usually this is voluntary, worshippers may ask for their ghost to be bound to continue to serve beyond death to protect a temple or other place very important to them (and Humakt don't consider this undeath, a ghost is thoroughly dead it just still has some business to do). They would definitely be still considered members of that community (and probably work with the temple wyter to defend it). 

Its unclear if ghosts can be bound to a moveable object rather than a place - if they can, I'm sure most regimental banners etc have ghosts bound to them as well.

Edited by davecake
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  • 2 weeks later...

After several delays the campaign that prompted this thread has met again, and I now have full stats for the community wyter:

Dancer in the Dark: Wyter of Ashen Rise

Pow 28 Int 14 Cha 11 MP: 21/21

RP: Kyger Lytor: 4/4 Arachne Solara: 3/3

Form: Spider with snake legs

Seasonal Holy Day: Godday, Harmony week (all seasons)

Focus: Shadowy Bronze Spear

Runes: Darkness: 90% Harmony: 80% Spirit: 60%

Passions: Love(Ashen Rise) 70%

Rune magic: Absorption Attack Soul Bless Champion Darksee Dismiss Magic Soul Sight

Spirit magic: Befuddle Demoralize Heal Countermagic Extinguish Vigor Slow Dullblade Darkwall

We're about to take it heroquesting with us during the Sacred Time rites of 1626-27.

There's a lot of ways I can see the wyter's powers being put to beneficial use for the community, but the most obvious play to me would be to use the Wyter's power to extend its rune magic to multiple targets to hit a whole team or raiding party with Bless Champion before layering on protective spells.  The wyter also has access to its priest's (my character's) Argan Argar magic, which includes the full common rune magic list.  The community is a mix of several species; using the wyter's multi-target ability to bless a bunch of characters with a season-long Extended Darksee would let members of the community not already gifted with Darksense perceive through Darkwalls and fight in lightless conditions just as well as the trolls through a whole campaign.

The magic-sharing goes two ways of course: now my character knows a bunch of useful spirit magic and Darkness rune magic he wouldn't have access to through just Argan Argar.  One of the synergies this creates is Attack Soul: he has an even stronger Darkness rune than the wyter to cast the spell, and is highly effective in Spirit Combat thanks to a POW 4 support crystal.  Being able to engage in Spirit Combat with material foes without Discorporating is a bit of a game-changer.

Anyone have thoughts on how to use this wyter to best advantage, now that its traits are largely known?

Edited by dumuzid
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