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How to deal with this much rune magic ?


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Being an initiate makes a ton more sense to me than a staying a lay member.   Real life bronze age did not have a terribly high percentage of atheists, and in a magic-dense world like Glorantha it's j

I do think hunters need some love. Leather Crafting, Butchery, Peaceful cut, Devise (Trapping in Dark and Storm season!) etc.  Plus their cults do seem a bit weak. I mean I know balance isnt a th

You seem to be making a pretty big assumption that "initiation" in this context means lay membership. Iirc, lay membership is the equivalent of what pantheon worship was in HQ1. Thinking back on

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22 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Not sure what you mean here. Obviously you need an Issaries initiate or better, but that could easily be one of the PCs. Or do you mean cult permisssion? That's only mentioned specifically for Earth Goddesses and Storm Bull/Waha. And if you're in decent standing, why would anyone object? Especially if you're doing it within the clan (potentially even within the cult!). It incurs no cost for the temple, and only the risk of spread and irresponsible use of cult magic should be a factor. 

The description of the spell says the only people you, the Issarian, can swap with are Priests.  You can't just grab passing initiates.  And Priests might have their own reasons and desires beyond merely widening their own magic, and probably have plenty of chance to do it with people who are NOT you... And would you care to up your offer please?

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13 minutes ago, Diana Probst said:

The description of the spell says the only people you, the Issarian, can swap with are Priests.  You can't just grab passing initiates.  And Priests might have their own reasons and desires beyond merely widening their own magic, and probably have plenty of chance to do it with people who are NOT you... And would you care to up your offer please?

Oh, yes, you're right - that's super weird. Why would initiates - or let alone, God-Talkers and Rune-Lords! -  be unable to spell trade? Can cults without priests not spell trade at all

Still, you only need a friendly priest, who might even be a PC. (You can even trade the same spell back to the one you traded with for good results, although this is of course munchkin-level stuff.)

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14 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Oh, yes, you're right - that's super weird. Why would initiates - or let alone, God-Talkers and Rune-Lords! -  be unable to spell trade? Can cults without priests not spell trade at all

Still, you only need a friendly priest, who might even be a PC. (You can even trade the same spell back to the one you traded with for good results, although this is of course munchkin-level stuff.)

Sure, but that's a balancing thing right in there.  You MIGHT know a friendly Storm Voice - but your supply is not unlimited.

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25 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Oh, yes, you're right - that's super weird. Why would initiates - or let alone, God-Talkers and Rune-Lords! -  be unable to spell trade?

Offhand:  Because it's not a "free market" I suspect; not everyone has equal access, etc.

This is Rune-magic, avatar-of-the-Deity stuff.

Joe Initiate -- and Jane, for that matter -- may not be responsible enough to decide how/when/why to trade such holiness.

I don't recall any myth(s) of the origin of spell-trading... but it sounds like there "should be" a myth featuring a "bad" trade with irresponsible lower-ranked person trading what they shouldn't have...

 

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2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

 

  • It takes extreme ill luck in order to not get a limb regrown (Heal 6 used to be a bit rare, but virtually everyone has Heal Wounds and 6 MP, and even Regrow Limb is not much a big deal)   :

NB in The Smoking Ruins there is a bit describing battle-worn troops as having damaged armour that hasn't been Repaired and brutal scars from not having being healed up to full for lack of Rune/Magic points and having healed at least some of the way naturally. So this is NOT the normal situation and shows a unit under pressure. 

  • Problems with pregnancies are exclusively for poor people

Why would poor people be short on Magic? It just requires time and access to a shrine. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Thaz said:

NB in The Smoking Ruins there is a bit describing battle-worn troops as having damaged armour that hasn't been Repaired and brutal scars from not having being healed up to full for lack of Rune/Magic points and having healed at least some of the way naturally. So this is NOT the normal situation and shows a unit under pressure. 

Lack of Magic Points is ridiculous - you fill up daily. No-one will ever be short on MPs for more than a few days in a row.

Lack of Rune Points is little more credible, but you still fill upp weekly or seasonally.

17 minutes ago, Thaz said:

Why would poor people be short on Magic? It just requires time and access to a shrine. 

You need to know the right spell, and if you have one single Rune spell, it's probably not Bless Pregnancy - you will have to find someone else to cast it. Sure, that's what the priestesses are for, but they don't do it for free. Note that use of one Rune Point is listed at 20L, which is a lot for poor people, and even if you can expect rebates, it can be more than you can afford.

Also, Bless Pregnancy is unusual in that it "locks up" the Rune Point(s) for the entire pregnancy, which is a giant cost compared to most Rune Magic. It's bound to be more expensive.

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5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

. A very substantial part of Orlanthi men can hit you with either Lightning or a Thunderbolt, or can Fly.

 

You do realize this is your interpretation, and Jason, and Jeff have both said this is not the case. The NPCs written about are mostly like the PCs, incredible. The common spells are not common to all initiates, just the exceptional (like PCs}. So while all initiates must have 1 RP this could well mean one spell. 

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5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I agree, it's the almost trivial Rune Point regain that is the issue (that you will always have 95% to succeed when you want them doesn't help any). In the design stage, I had thought an Initiate would regain Rune Points once or twice yearly, not on a weekly basis if they feel like it!

I would add to your list:

  • Every field will be blessed (Bless Crops)
  • Every breeding animal will be blessed (Bless Animal)
  • etc.

If you want to conclude that for your Glorantha, then you are welcome to do so. It isn't the only conclusion available though, so feel free to take a different approach if that suits your style of play.

The adventurer creation rules are for adventurers, for player characters, that has been made abundantly clear many times. Extrapolating Gloranthan reality from the RuneQuest rules is also not logical, as RuneQuest is a rule system for running a roleplaying game, not a perfect formula for deriving all Gloranthan truth.

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10 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

While not "perfect", it's also what we have.

Since Initiates gain immense benefits from acquiring a few points of Rune Spells, it is logical for them to do so.  What would be the downsides?

My suggestion about extrapolating Glorantha from RuneQuest is, "don't do that". Yet you ask me about doing exactly that. Forgive me for not answering.

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6 hours ago, Thaz said:
6 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Now I understand that  most adults get 2 or 3 rune points that if they live near a fair size temple they can replenish every week.

What is the wording on that? Dont have my books to hand....certainly POW gain rolls to get stuff to sacrifice are still Yearly unless your a Priest, Shammy or the like so people wont have a ton of RP

6 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Acccording to jeff -  Pg 315 Minor Holy days, but my books arent with me either

Yeah, that works for cults with a Holy Day each week.  According to the RAW though, that's only Babeester Gor, Eiritha( maybe, could just be for priestesses ), Ernalda, and Issaries.  None of the other cults in the core book mention weekly holy days.

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7 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I was wrongly under the impression that initiates only got there magic back on high holy days and sacred times ( don't ask me how, something i picked up in the playstest and game dev phases that stuck in my mind, and i never checked again).

Now I understand that  most adults get 2 or 3 rune points that if they live near a fair size temple they can replenish every week. Thats a  game changing level of rune magic,  available to PCs, NPC's , foes and lots of monsters.

Rune magic has Just got turned up to 11.

A very critical piece to bear in mind with RQG is the assumption that you are running One session per season.  In practice that means one opportunity to renew Rune points before the next session.  This is a general framework, and if you are running scenarios that are extending across many weeks, you will need to adjust the framework to fit.  The framework is meant for adventurers, not the general populace.  If you are running extended weekly adventures and don't adjust, then you are just encouraging a form of munchkinery (and yes you will feel like it is "too much").

There are a number of factors to consider with this:

1) The basic starts with this: "Rune points may only be replenished through worship of the deity on a holy day and participation in cult rites."  I.e. at a temple on a holy day, succeed in Worship roll, spend 2 MP.

2) The specific holy day matters. Sacred Time/High Holy Day: success = all; fail = 2d6. Seasonal holy day: success = 2d6; fail = 1d3. Minor holy day: success = 1d6; fail = 0.

3) The size of temple could matter. It certainly matters as to the availability of Rune spells to learn.  Does it matter to your game?  Normally, no. But, it's a place the framework can be adjusted. Shrine = 1 special rune spell.  Minor temple = all cult special spells + 1 local subcult.  Major temple = all cult common and special spells + local subcults + 1 associated cult. Great temple = all spells + some/most associated cults.  You can apply restrictions to replenishing Rune points by several means: capping at the # of available spells; limiting by a factor (e.g. shrine = 1/4, minor = 1/2, etc.); restricting to only renewal where the available spells equal those the character knows; etc.

4) Adjusting the effect of the Worship roll could be leveraged. Fail might always be 0. Success = 1d3. Special = 1d6. Critical = 2d6 (or all). Or some other metric.

5) Worship rolls can be adjusted/restricted.

This, of course, still favors the adventurer who can be in the city in time for the seasonal holy day. My players are always factoring this in to their timetables - which is fine as it is what we do in real life. This, too, can be restricted, and you do it based on 1) whether you are known to the temple priests (which can be abstracted as Loyalty to the city); 2) whether you are known to be Loyal to the temple. If you aren't known, then you don't get invited into the ritual parts of the ceremonies where all of your Rune points are replenished (instead treat what you gain as the next level down).

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4 hours ago, Diana Probst said:

Access to the correct shrine.  Or, better, Temple.  Your local place will probably only have one spell available.  Bully for you if it helps with pregnancy, but not so good for your fields.

Nope. You pop to town for Seasonal Holy day or HH and sacrifice for magics your local shrine or temple doesnt have but can renew the RP at the local filling station...er shrine. 

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4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Lack of Magic Points is ridiculous - you fill up daily. No-one will ever be short on MPs for more than a few days in a row.

Lack of Rune Points is little more credible, but you still fill upp weekly or seasonally.

 

i)In a long running fight you are in it for a day or more and it's no longer trivial. So if you dont heal up full you can loose limbs or acquire scars or not be able to call on all that sparkly rune magic on day 5 of the siege....for example. Rune Quest magic is _brittle_ and out lasting your enemies is important.

 

ii)Big difference between weekly and seasonaly. 

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1 hour ago, Marc said:

 

 

Yeah, that works for cults with a Holy Day each week.  According to the RAW though, that's only Babeester Gor, Eiritha( maybe, could just be for priestesses ), Ernalda, and Issaries.  None of the other cults in the core book mention weekly holy days.

^^^^^^^^^ This is KEY. Excellent point

 

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3 hours ago, Thaz said:

Nope. You pop to town for Seasonal Holy day or HH and sacrifice for magics your local shrine or temple doesnt have but can renew the RP at the local filling station...er shrine. 

That town 2 days away, where we're not part of the community?

I can see adventurers doing that, sure.  Not so much other people.  Humans don't act in their own economic interest in the real world.  Why expect fantasy to be different?

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6 minutes ago, Diana Probst said:

That town 2 days away, where we're not part of the community?

I can see adventurers doing that, sure.  Not so much other people.  Humans don't act in their own economic interest in the real world.  Why expect fantasy to be different?

Maybe not the fixed residents, who work in place; but some of the more wandering sorts (like hunters) might well take a several-day journey to reach a shrine; particularly as they can hunt as they travel, or set snares & traps to pick up en route back to their "home" territory.

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12 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I think your looking at use of rune points by adventures, not by people in the wider community, its the 2nd that falls over.

I think this adventure foscus may be our source of the problem

"People in the wider community" are not a problem, because only about a tenth of them are initiates, and initiates who aren't adventurers usually only have 1 or 2 rune points. Why? Because if they aren't adventurers, they don't really need them. The priestess blesses your crops, the healer heals you. And they have better runes and are more likely to make the roll. And, unless you are a hunter or traveling merchant or something, you almost never leave your home village if you aren't an adventurer, if for no other reason than that is pretty damn risky in Dragon Pass. BTW, If you have a weekslong adventure, that means unless you are pretty lucky, you can't spend an *entire day,* sunup to sundown, getting back those rune points, even if you happen by accident to be wandering by a shrine on that minor holy day. And, BTW, sac too much POW for runespells and the bad guys will always succeed in their spellcastings on you, and you will blow a whole lot of luck rolls. An unlucky adventurer is often a dead adventurer. Any GM who doesn't make the low POW adventurers who just sac'ed for runespells do critically important luck rolls is not disciplining the players.

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If it's a problem, then fix it!

@jajagappa has already suggested a few,, and others have suggested the possible difficulties that are  inherent in the system.

You could also add in money. At the moment, IIRC, getting a Rune Spell is free. Change that. 50L is a HUGE investment for most NPCs. Even a noble would baulk at that! (But, it's going to be cheaper in the long run than the Priestess Blessing your personal crops every year for 20L per ... Unless you decide that's what the tithing pays for).

Also, when coming in for your worship service, remember your donations/tithes.

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34 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I seriously question the "most people aren't initiated" standard. 

I've generally followed the idea that I think Greg laid out long ago that in Orlanthi communities the majority (perhaps the Orlanthi "all") are initiated. But, that doesn't mean they are running around with lots of magical power. These are the folk with POW = 10-11. They gained a Rune point when initiated. Perhaps they've sacrificed for another to enhance their connection to the deity over the years. They help the priestesses bless the crops, they help the priests call the clouds and thunder and rain. Maybe they use a special magic when they go on the Fireseason raid, or need to heal someone of a grievous wound. Or, they use the magic of the gods to help protect the magical holy days each season from threats from Darkness, Fire, and even Chaos. 

Whether the Pelorian/DH follow the same pattern or not is another question. In my Gloranthan view, most of those folk initiate to Lodril and Oria, maybe some specialty gods like the Lowfires. But the willingness of the priests to grant access to more magic may be more limiting. Whether that's monetary, a factor of the ceremonies, or something else is not a great concern - just depends on what you want in your game.

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The funny thing to me is that this is one of the cases where RQG copied RQ3 instead of RQ2. Initiates are not common in RQ2; you can play for (game time) months before becoming an initiate and getting any Rune spells at all, and there's none of this "success is automatic if your parents were initiates" stuff: you have to pass the test, and it is entirely possible to fail and have to wait a fair while before you can try again.

A possible house rule: only PCs (and special NPCs, which would include Godtalkers, Rune Priests, and Rune Lords) get Rune Points; everyone else is stuck with spirit magic. Maybe you can only sacrifice POW after some sort of special service or something, which is assumed to be true for PCs at character generation. I'm also not entirely convinced initiates really need weekly holy days; maybe you need Rune Level for those. (Heck, maybe initiates can only get them back on the High Holy Day if you really want to pull it back).

That tones it down a fair bit. I'm currently reading through Borderlands And Beyond prepping for a new campaign and even the likes of Duke Raus don't have any Rune magic, so it is a change and it likely does mean that the compatibility is not necessarily as trivial as is claimed by the conversion document.

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3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I seriously question the "most people aren't initiated" standard.  For 1 POW you have Universal Catastrophic Health Care.  Seems well worth it, right?

You have it already if you have an Ernalda priestess in your village pretty much. Or even if there's an initiate around who likes you for that matter. It is a common runespell after all.

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