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How to deal with this much rune magic ?


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16 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Isn't that a question from a different thread on issues with Rune spells?

The OP was about whether there was too much Rune magic now. And that's really just a matter of a GM determining pace of game and what they want.

I think the two questions are interlocked,hard to think about one without thinking about the other. Actually, I personally don't have a problem with "too much rune magic," except maybe for Bless Crops. In Rayquest, rune magic is highly accessible, had to be as Ray simply abolished "battle magic" altogether. As a GM I've tended to if anything loosen access to Rune magic instead of tightening it.

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Being an initiate makes a ton more sense to me than a staying a lay member.   Real life bronze age did not have a terribly high percentage of atheists, and in a magic-dense world like Glorantha it's j

I do think hunters need some love. Leather Crafting, Butchery, Peaceful cut, Devise (Trapping in Dark and Storm season!) etc.  Plus their cults do seem a bit weak. I mean I know balance isnt a th

You seem to be making a pretty big assumption that "initiation" in this context means lay membership. Iirc, lay membership is the equivalent of what pantheon worship was in HQ1. Thinking back on

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5 minutes ago, Glorion said:

My knowledge of HQ, a game I never cared for, is rusty. If there is some status below devotee and above initiate in HQ, that's a better equivalent to RQG initiate.

Well, HQG initiates are honestly on about the same if not a higher power level than RQG initiates imo. Being an initiate lets you buy breakout abilities to do supernatural things with your runes, like lightning spears or opening holes in the earth. All lay members can do is augment with their runes, they can't have magical breakouts from them (at least from their cult, you could have a piece of personal magic as a breakout I guess).

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Can we agree at least that using the phrase "initiated into" to mean "become a lay member of" is needlessly confusing?

RQ3 largely did away with lay membership; pretty much the first rung on cult membership became initiate instead. RQ2 didn't; there were cults where you had to have been a lay member for X years before you could even try to become an initiate.

One can certainly argue about which of these previous versions got it correct, but from the standpoint of RQG it seems that lay membership, at the very least, is not important in game terms. If "initiated into the cult of Orlanth Adventurous" really is intended to mean "became a lay member of the cult of Orlanth Adventurous" then that is a bizarre decision akin to D&D's varied use of the term "level" - a needless barrier to comprehension from new GMs given that alternative language is readily available. I submit that most new GMs that see the phrase "initiated into" are going to assume that means "becomes an Initiate of", and honestly it's hard to say RAW that they're wrong to do so.

Certainly as I'm converting over Borderlands and Beyond for my upcoming RQG game I'm redoing the NPCs initiates as having Rune Points, even though they rarely do in the (RQ2) original.

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58 minutes ago, Glorion said:

My knowledge of HQ, a game I never cared for, is rusty. If there is some status below devotee and above initiate in HQ, that's a better equivalent to RQG initiate. 

I didn't overly like the original HW/HQ1 game, but enjoy HQG, and run both that and RQG. Initiates in one are initiates in the other. There's no effective lay member in HQG as it doesn't add any value.  HQG has Godtalkers which pairs with RQG Godtalkers. Devotees are decidedly Rune Level.

59 minutes ago, Glorion said:

I think the two questions are interlocked, hard to think about one without thinking about the other. Actually, I personally don't have a problem with "too much rune magic,"

I've not had a problem with either "too much Rune magic" or issues with Rune spells in the 2.5 years I've been running an RQG game, but that could just be game style too. I definitely like it better than RQ3's take on Rune magic/spells (which I ran for 10 years).

52 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Can we agree at least that using the phrase "initiated into" to mean "become a lay member of" is needlessly confusing?

It is to me! That's why I stick with "initiated into" means "initiate of" 🙂

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1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

Can we agree at least that using the phrase "initiated into" to mean "become a lay member of" is needlessly confusing?

RQ3 largely did away with lay membership; pretty much the first rung on cult membership became initiate instead. RQ2 didn't; there were cults where you had to have been a lay member for X years before you could even try to become an initiate.

One can certainly argue about which of these previous versions got it correct, but from the standpoint of RQG it seems that lay membership, at the very least, is not important in game terms. If "initiated into the cult of Orlanth Adventurous" really is intended to mean "became a lay member of the cult of Orlanth Adventurous" then that is a bizarre decision akin to D&D's varied use of the term "level" - a needless barrier to comprehension from new GMs given that alternative language is readily available. I submit that most new GMs that see the phrase "initiated into" are going to assume that means "becomes an Initiate of", and honestly it's hard to say RAW that they're wrong to do so.

Certainly as I'm converting over Borderlands and Beyond for my upcoming RQG game I'm redoing the NPCs initiates as having Rune Points, even though they rarely do in the (RQ2) original.

Definitely true! Either Chaosium should say to hell with realistic notions of Glorantha, this is just a game anyway, and accept the popular call to make everyone in sight an initiate, or this should be clarified. Not least clarified to the folk writing supplements and adventures! I'm somewhat pleased to be reminded that you had less profusion of rune magic in RQ2 than in RQ3. RQG is after all based on 2 which was popular, not 3 which was less so.

 

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45 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I've not had a problem with either "too much Rune magic" or issues with Rune spells in the 2.5 years I've been running an RQG game, but that could just be game style too. I definitely like it better than RQ3's take on Rune magic/spells (which I ran for 10 years).

What was RQ3's take on rune magic? I was under the impression that it was similar to RQ2's.

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19 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's not just the holy place itself - you need someone to officiate the worship. If you're in a cult like Yinkin or Odayla, you may well not have even one God-Talker in the clan.

That is one important reason why Yinkin, Odayla, and Foundchild go and do that Great Hunt thing - a place where you can always find a God-Talker and other cult members. They’ll use Sanctify if needed.

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Ok I've read the other thread now and it certainly does imply that just about everyone gets a weekly RP reup _if_ they can take part in a all day worship ceremony.

At this point the limiting factor is availability of a Priest, God Talker or Rune Lord  and available shrine/sanctify spell.

For Players the issue is that each cults weekly holy day is a different day. So If your party is willing to take a weeks downtime in a Town or City with the major temples/shrines then it's not an issue. But it enforces downtime. I've no issue with that. Once you have a worship leading PC it gets even easier if other players are in an allied cult or join up (if allowed) and sanctify on the move (assuming the worship leader is able to keep enough RP to cast it!) but that's rather situational and at least in the campaigns I've seen players have tended to be quite diverse compared to RQ3 and HQ/HW where being all from the same clan is common. We have praxian's, sartarites, esrolians and very few fellow cultists in the 2-3 groups I've observed. And Orlanth and Ernalda are actually pretty rare choices for players. (I have none in the game I GM :- Humakti, LM, Yelmalio/Elmal, Issaries(and will go Gustbran or Heller) and Yinkin. In the game I play in we have one Vingan and another Ernaldan who's actually looking to go shaman. The remainder are Humakti, Stormbull, LM, CA etc). Players tend to gravitate to different cults so they all get their own little niche.

For the world at large:- Bless Crops. Either house-rule it to Priests and God Talkers and RuneLevel only OR 

Looking back at KoDP Computer game:- It's entirely possible to use Magic to improve crops or herds or whatever but it's a major commitment Clan/Tribal of resources to do so. So how does this model into RQG?

Well you need a rune level worship leader who's pretty much going to be nailed down for a while and possibly more importantly you need 10+ worshippers out all day and who can get out and do the casting. Elders would make sense. It's totally worth doing if you can find yourself the appropriate rune level type. I've no issues with that.

 

 

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1 hour ago, davecake said:

That is one important reason why Yinkin, Odayla, and Foundchild go and do that Great Hunt thing - a place where you can always find a God-Talker and other cult members. They’ll use Sanctify if needed.

Yes, but it has a couple of issues. One is that it’s only yearly. The other is that it’s just up against Sacred Time, which creates a problem with the distribution.

Still, as you say, hunters will certainly fill up their Rune points during the Great Hunt.

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16 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I do think hunters need some love.

Leather Crafting, Butchery, Peaceful cut, Devise (Trapping in Dark and Storm season!) etc.  Plus their cults do seem a bit weak. I mean I know balance isnt a thing. But still. 

I'm thinking Furrier for craft skill rather than leatherworking (making leather in antiquity is a bloody awful business, and not something you do out in the wilds), but the idea is the same.

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17 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm thinking Furrier for craft skill rather than leatherworking (making leather in antiquity is a bloody awful business, and not something you do out in the wilds), but the idea is the same.

IMG the goto leather/padding equivalent for Orlanthi is actually sheepskin. Perfect for under metal armour (if you are high status) and decently effective for the Fyrd as is. Strong Hat, Shield,  Sheepskin plus Spear and/or Axe and/or Scram(shortsword or dagger) and there ya go. I imagine following the various defeats of the Lunar Armies by 1626 there's a fair amount of Lunar or Tarsh loot floating about as well. 

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5 hours ago, Richard S. said:

What was RQ3's take on rune magic? I was under the impression that it was similar to RQ2's.

More or less, except that RQ3 pretty much everyone starts as an initiate (as in RQG). In RQ2, becoming an initiate was likely to be something you achieved after at least a few sessions of play, depending on whether you started with prior experience or not.

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11 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Can we agree at least that using the phrase "initiated into" to mean "become a lay member of" is needlessly confusing?

Personally, I found Jeff's response regarding this (quoted earlier) to be rather rude... "You are confusing...".

No, using the same word for two quite different meanings is not us who "is confusing". It's the writers and editors not keeping things straight for the readers. And, in particular, expecting readers to draw the same conclusions that the word is being used with a different meaning with zero reason to do so! 

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16 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Personally, I found Jeff's response regarding this (quoted earlier) to be rather rude... "You are confusing...".

Jason, not Jeff. But otherwise I agree - the customer communication in that thread is not ideal (and also increasingly spotty).

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The more reasonable way handle the seeming discrepancy here would be to clarify that all (Orlanthi all) adults in the Dragon Pass area get initiated (these are the ones you're making characters from on page 73, after all!), while p. 269 might refer to Genertelans in general. That's the only clarification needed, and no nonsense about the difference between being an initiate and merely being initiated is required.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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5 hours ago, Thaz said:

Looking back at KoDP Computer game:- It's entirely possible to use Magic to improve crops or herds or whatever but it's a major commitment Clan/Tribal of resources to do so. So how does this model into RQG?

I think the simplest answer to this is that what KoDP and Six Ages call Clan Magic is an average of clan members' available POW and RP for the season: RP for blessings, defense, and power in the otherworlds; POW to feed the clan wyter for miracles and sacrifice for new rune magic.

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6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

 between being an initiate and merely being initiated is required.

Makes sense to me and that's my house rule. YGMV so I'm not going to get my knickers twisted about it.  I have a few issues with RQG but frankly given how much I _loathed_ HW/HQ I'm basking in the sunshine of the current edition and I'm utterly forgiving of what in essence is minor details which we already have explicitly been told can and should vary as we want.

I get some people just cant let things be however.  

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10 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

I think the simplest answer to this is that what KoDP and Six Ages call Clan Magic is an average of clan members' available POW and RP for the season: RP for blessings, defense, and power in the otherworlds; POW to feed the clan wyter for miracles and sacrifice for new rune magic.

Also how much resources you commit to priests and temples, the strength of your magical treasures, how good your Wyter is, the mood of your ancestors, this year's omens, and so on.

The Community Resources system in HQ is very useful, and RQ has nothing like it. I've been trying to create community rules, but it's not easy to both get it right and have it feel like RQ.

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13 hours ago, Glorion said:

Only among Mormons, and not all of them, does anyone tithe 10% of their income these days.

You would be suprised.

I object to OT legalism of the tithe, but when was active in church gave significantly to the church, and in the future will happily do so again.

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14 hours ago, Glorion said:

But the vast majority of the Sartarite population are farmers and cowherds and stickpickers, and normally could not not really afford to be initiates and pay a tithe. Maybe more like 80% than 90% however. 

If you look at the economy system for farmers in the book though, you will see that you have to pay 20% of the gross of the farm to the temple anyway, and that this counts for your 10% tithing. So there's really no cost involved for a farmer couple to be initiated into Orlanth and Ernalda respectively. Which in turn means that there's almost no cost bar the POW to getting some pretty impressive magical powers. There's just no reason not to get initiated.

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13 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Those look like entirely reasonable "house rules" to me, which I will likely adopt. The advantage of requiring initiates to buy access to specific common Rune spells is that it will avoid analysis paralysis for new RQ players; they won't have as many options to start with, which means that their introduction to the options can be gentle. And we know it isn't crippling, because RQ2/3 initiates had it even worse.

I'd probably open up all the common spells once you hit Rune level and, if I was in a nice mood, might even allow a former Humakt initiate that had sacrificed for access to Heal Wound to trade it for a Humakt special Rune spell upon becoming a Sword.

That's a fair variation on it, but may limit the number of standard spells bought by initiates.

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On 2/26/2020 at 3:14 PM, David Scott said:

Imagine an average Farmer (Orlanth initiate). He's married (Ernalda initiate) with 2 children. Together they farm their land near Apple Lane.

Regardless of their rune points,  Orlanth initiates get to renew their magic twice per season (hopefully the floating days are evenly spread out RQG p300) and during sacred time. RQG p300. Ernaldans, ignoring the minor holy days get 5 seasonal holy days, sacred time and 2 others RQG p293.

Initiation on page 275 says you get 1 special rune spell, so what does an Orlanthi farmer choose for rune magic? Pick well as to get more you need to pay 100L per point (page 275) 100L is 5 cows. Look at what's available for farmers, Orlanth is rubbish. Personally I believe flight is the best, it lets you fly to the holy peaks on holy days. but really they are all Weather or Air based or only useful in a fight. Thunderbolt is likely the best otherwise.

Ernalda initiates? Bless crops wins every time.

So what about the common rune magic?

Divination - what are farmers going to ask about? causes of sick animals, crop blight, where is my lost brother, will the harvest go well, should I buy Bert's spare bull...

Warding - what are you going to ward - likely the cows, but that's fine, that's what it's for. You don't get the RP back until it expires. So that puts you down points. Likely you only do it when treble is expected.

Heal Wound is the single most important spell, it's what reduces overall mortality from simple problems (no one normal bleeds to death, through normal accident or childbirth issues). This an important thing for Glorantha as a setting I believe.

The only other one that i believe is of any import is Multispell, as it lets you loose off multiple healing and disruption.

The rest are very specialist.

Overall your family can benefit from rune magic every few weeks but I don't think they use it very often. Most save it up for an emergency. should I cast divination or save it just in case of an accident.

so

I don't think they do, unless they are specialists. The farmers above use thunderbolt. Most farmers rarely fight. 

Divination is still unreliable and people will likely put off using it except in emergency.

Yes, it's now a fantasy world where accidents don't kill you, but combat still can and is why no one squanders their rune points.

If you have the rune points and choose well.

Adventurers on the other hand are entirely different.

 

Hey Dave was with you on this kinda of approach which i thought was very interesting, until we start to look at initiates regained RP on weekly minor holy days.

Then i think it unravels.

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1 hour ago, Jon Hunter said:

You would be suprised.

I object to OT legalism of the tithe, but when was active in church gave significantly to the church, and in the future will happily do so again.

Added to which we're comparing to 21stC. Having a day in church was pretty much the standard for most of Europe and Colonial North America until pretty recently. As I think I mentioned earlier there are still chunks of the UK where 'The Lords Day' is taken pretty seriously and also in Israel etc. And that's where you dont get to re-attach limbs or freakin _fly_ as a direct result.

Heck I think there would be lines out the door to spend Sunday covered in ashes and tithing like a good un. 

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1 hour ago, Jon Hunter said:

Hey Dave was with you on this kinda of approach which i thought was very interesting, until we start to look at initiates regained RP on weekly minor holy days.

Then i think it unravels.

One house-rule would be to look into the values for Rune Point regain. Only granting 1 Rune Point regain for weekly holy days make them a lot less crazy (and perhaps just 1D6 for seasonal if you want to cut down a bit on those as well).

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