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How to deal with this much rune magic ?


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I was thinking more sociologically about it.  Tribe 1 has a 10% initiation level.  Tribe 2 is pretty much the same, but has a 50% (male population) Orlanth/Lightbringers initiation level.  Who wins a raid?  Who wins more and takes less casualties when they have to fight outsiders?  Who consistently wins acclaim of the other tribes?   Which males consistently attract and can keep the most desirable females?    Which tribe is healthier and richer?   Even if you invest in war magic, just one successful cattle raid can more than make up for the cost.  

There is no doubt in my mind that the higher magic tribe is just better.  The 10% tithe and time are trivial compared to things like.....being powerful enough to survive.   And a lot of times it isn't about direct conflict with Tribe 1.  It is about being able to weather the bad events or deter them by being strong.  

Combine this with the fact that was always how the world was portrayed -- even Prince of Sartar leads off with the initiation ceremony -- and it's just solidly established that this is the case.  

Trying to say everyone is a lay member makes a LOT more sense without re-usable rune magic.  But HQ:G changed the world.  And yes, the mechanics of the universe are it's physics.  That's one of the precise reasons why RQ has always been a better game that D&D.  The latter is just more generic and abstract.  RQ made more "sense" from a kenetic point of view.    Having everyone live in this ultra-magic world and not take advantage of the cults -- and lets not forget the benefit of taught skills and spirit magic, not to mention sense of place, community, belonging is like me telling my kids not to go to college and not take advantage of grants and scholarships if they do.  There is a clear way to get ahead in a theistic zone in Glorantha -- it is to join a cult.  The only thing that we are debating is the appropriate level for a generic, non-encounter NPC.    I say initiate of those that directly offer life improvements.  Lay membership I would suggest is for the Orlanthi herder who wants to spend some time with the local Issaries traders.  He will help out driving the wagons and protecting a caravan route, possibly.  Or he may help in the market.  Similarly a potter may have an interest in something that draws him to the Lhankhor Mhy cult.  Either a cultural art type, or maybe historical events to portray, etc.  He will spend some time cleaning up around the temple in exchange for knowledge and research time, but wouldn't join as a full time scholar.  

Basically I am seeing Lay membership in several cults, and initiation into one being a typical pattern.  Which and how many depends on the culture, the lifestyle needs of the person involved, and how easy it is for them to manage the time and cost.  As pointed out, I expect that the individuals would gain as much, or probably more than the "spend" on the cult up.  Honestly I felt that was probably true prior to the Rune Magic change.  After it....well......YGMV, but mine has a lot of initiates, because otherwise I am asking my players to accept that a ton of people are just leaving money on the table so to speak.  What does make more sense is joining a non-warlike cult.  And since I do try to portray the members and inhabitants in as much detail as possible, random farmers and stickpickers do appear a lot in my stories.  Maybe not to go fight trolls, but combat is just one potential adventuring activity.  

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Being an initiate makes a ton more sense to me than a staying a lay member.   Real life bronze age did not have a terribly high percentage of atheists, and in a magic-dense world like Glorantha it's j

I do think hunters need some love. Leather Crafting, Butchery, Peaceful cut, Devise (Trapping in Dark and Storm season!) etc.  Plus their cults do seem a bit weak. I mean I know balance isnt a th

You seem to be making a pretty big assumption that "initiation" in this context means lay membership. Iirc, lay membership is the equivalent of what pantheon worship was in HQ1. Thinking back on

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9 hours ago, Thaz said:

For Players the issue is that each cults weekly holy day is a different day. So If your party is willing to take a weeks downtime in a Town or City with the major temples/shrines then it's not an issue. But it enforces downtime.

Right now I've got:  Issaries, LM, Yelmalio, Babeester Gor, Storm Bull, a shaman, and Donandar. Yes, coordinating is a challenge! The Donandar skald is the hardest because there just aren't lots of accessible Donandar temples. But there are subcults to both Ernalda and Orlanth, so the Sartarite city temples to these deities all have shrines to Donandar that can be used. And obviously the Earth temple works for Babs.  Overall, its Fertility and Truth weeks that are the ones where folks want to be home, and they work to fit other adventures in-between.

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I agree weekly holy replenishing (? is it a word ?)  is excessive but... in the other hand

If we assume PC go adventuring each season, and need to replenish their pool between each season (I m not sure that is a good thing, but it seems to be the "average gameplay"), it is difficult to manage holy days for all gods in the same period and define that each scenario must start after the "hot hot replenish" period and finish before the next "hot hot replenish period" (not sure I m clear with my words sorry)

Having a weekly window to replenish is good for that (you can start when you want your scenario)

Adding a rule that you can participate all holy day you want but can replenish your pool ONLY one time per season / year / other would be great. If it is not canon, it is a GM responsability to manage as the party plays.

I will not GM or play in a group having fun with pc able to one shot cacodemon or with more magic point than Leika (RQG) or Solanthos (RQ 2/3? ) with all the support off their community (colymar tribe / sundome in prax) and treasure just because that's not my pleasure. But I can understand others play differently.


So My glorantha:

- lot of people are initiates. Who is not initiate is following another way (shaman, sorcery, or I don't know)

- lot of people are initiates with their occupation patron : a sartarite farmer ? Orlanth the plower (father ?) or Barntar, but not thunderous, not adventurous (so no war magic) Why ? because the social pressure ! (from who ? the GM :) ) A cottar who wants to join Orlanth the warrior is a danger for the community, at least for the elite. A cottar who wants to join Orlanth the thunder is a danger for the priest family (how my son can become priest if there are 20 people who can become priest ?!)

- initiates can regain rune power but need :

  • to spend a full day
  • to obtain a priest (or about) to lead the ceremony (so if it is not a great date, pc give favors, gold, cow, or I don't know what). Priest (GM) has other thing to manage than just give "free" power to pc

- pc can trade spell if :

  • a PC has the trade spell (Issaries) or a priest agrees to manage it (GM choice)
  • another PC wants to exchange the spell with the first one or a npc wants (GM choice)

I am pretty sure that, in my glorantha, "loan my own god power to someone who doesn't share my faith, just because he/she ask" is a little bit considered as a god offense.

Then what we have :

pc are exception not because the rule, but because they have access to "elite" subcults/magics

pc can replenish their magic power to be able to play scenario in good condition (if the scenario doesn't need full magic power, well the priest is away, if the scenario needs it, the priest has a dream and organize a full day ceremony)

pc can trade spell because a scenario or as a reward for good RP or I don't know what, not just because the rules.

 

that's my RQ:G, without any home rules, just a "home" glorantha.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dissolv said:

There is no doubt in my mind that the higher magic tribe is just better.  The 10% tithe and time are trivial compared to things like.....being powerful enough to survive.   

Note that this kind of thing only holds true when you compare one Orlanthi clan to another. Other societies can absolutely make do with large amounts of lay members, if they instead focus on specialization, channeling resources and magic to a specialized magical elite. This is how most of the more "civilized" societies do it, and the power of the Lunar schools of magic proves how well it can work. For an empire, this has the added benefit of keeping the plebs magically unarmed.

So every society has to make good use of the magic in people, but they can do it in very different ways. One of Argrath's big achievements is taking the very large but thoroughly disorganized magical potential of Sartar and turning it into an organized magical force.

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19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

I was thinking more sociologically about it.  Tribe 1 has a 10% initiation level.  Tribe 2 is pretty much the same, but has a 50% (male population) Orlanth/Lightbringers initiation level.  Who wins a raid? 

The tribe that brings more professional warriors. If those 10% are regimental Yelmalians (and face it, Templars don't really need much divine magic as they don't get much that is useful in formation), the tribe with fewer initiates may win the day quite often. 

 

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Who wins more and takes less casualties when they have to fight outsiders? 

Again, if the 10% have all the experts who are rune levels, as the Pelorian lowlanders handle religion, then the difference is minuscule. A greater degree of organization will win the day over un-coordinated activism.

 

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Who consistently wins acclaim of the other tribes?   

The richer of the two tribes.

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Which males consistently attract and can keep the most desirable females?   

That is often handled inside the tribes, and while the 10% tribe will have fewer magical people, these people will necessarily be a lot more magical, and may attract more powerful mates.

The 10% tribe is likely to have a large semi-free or unfree population. Again, look at Sun Dome County.

 

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Which tribe is healthier and richer?   

The tribe with better trade connections and natural resources like e.g. bronze or salt mines.

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Even if you invest in war magic, just one successful cattle raid can more than make up for the cost.  

Not if you look at the amount of payment that is actually done in grain rather than cattle. An exceptional cattle raid may take away 50 heads of cattle.

Also, the war magic only comes into play when the cattle raid goes awry and there is actual fighting. A well-conducted cattle raid will avoid most contact with the owners of the cattle.

 

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

There is no doubt in my mind that the higher magic tribe is just better.  The 10% tithe and time are trivial compared to things like.....being powerful enough to survive.   And a lot of times it isn't about direct conflict with Tribe 1.  It is about being able to weather the bad events or deter them by being strong.  

The tribe with all those powerful (because busy) magic experts may not be at a disadvantage.

These constellations are unlikely to be found in Sartar, IMO, where there is a cult initiation rate of roughly 70% of the adult population, and the sum of cult initiates is up to 105% of the adult population, with dual or more cult initiation not being uncommon.

Especially the poor or even destitute will often become holy people for fringe cults, earning themselves higher status and at least temporarily a good lifestyle for that.

 

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Combine this with the fact that was always how the world was portrayed -- even Prince of Sartar leads off with the initiation ceremony -- and it's just solidly established that this is the case.  

While it is possible to end your adulthood initiation also as a cult initiate of the sponsoring main clan deity, I believe this to be not that common.

I also wonder on which side of the balance  Daka Fal worshipers appear in the statistic. They are effectively spirit worshipers and lay members of the main clan and tribal deities, and thus probably part of the 30% not counted as cult initiates.

Then there are outright animists looking to Kolating or Earth Witch shamans for their magical guidance, with probably a good number of former candidates for assistant shamanhood. You don't need to be a full shaman to become a spirit talker, some stint as a shaman's temporary assistant may prepare you enough for those duties.

 

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Trying to say everyone is a lay member makes a LOT more sense without re-usable rune magic. 

Everybody - even rune level characters - is a lay worshiper of most of the deities worshiped at the local temple and shrines when not an associate initiate (a more fancy term for lay member).

 

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

But HQ:G changed the world. 

RQ1 and 2 changed the world of Nomad Gods and White Bear and Red Moon. Not always in the direction that the stories which shaped the world would have led.

It is astonishing how many details that we usually place firmly in the RQ2 era are present already in WBRM and NG. The NG map of Genertela shows Orathorn...

Stuff like the Cannibal Cult or the Men-and-a-half or the Pavis Survivors were in NG before the Pavis campaign and background was developed in the detail we know and love.

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

And yes, the mechanics of the universe are it's physics. 

The mechanics of the universe aren't game mechanics, though. The skill requirements for Rune Lord status are purely a game artifact and have little grounding in the setting. The skill cap for non-Rune Masters in RQ2 is ludicrous in terms of world consistency.

 

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

That's one of the precise reasons why RQ has always been a better game that D&D.  The latter is just more generic and abstract.  RQ made more "sense" from a kenetic point of view.   

D&D has a very different goal from RQ. Its world building used to be subject to game system constraints, and it took the game more than a decade to come up with a halfway decent official setting worth exploring in any other way than dungeoneering while still suffering from the Vancian magic system.

RQ tried to avoid the more surreal aspects that D&D would lead into, like the starting magician unable to pick up a club to bash some goblin heads and on the brink of death from a mosquito bite, or the high level (non-magical) character near-immunity to falls.

 

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Having everyone live in this ultra-magic world and not take advantage of the cults -- and lets not forget the benefit of taught skills and spirit magic, not to mention sense of place, community, belonging is like me telling my kids not to go to college and not take advantage of grants and scholarships if they do. 

This may be a consequence of the US education system. Over here in Germany, not going to college but to start a formal apprenticehood in not just crafts but just about any conceivable trade is a viable alternative to acquire an additional set of education. In Orlanthi society, the spirit magic specialist spirit talker or the urban craftsperson relying on the guild sorcerers (likely LM types) to provide the extra magic is a viable option. Sartar has an unusually high degree of urbanisation - the Colymar tribe is about as urban as your typical Pelorian region, and most other tribes organized in city rings have a significantly higher percentage of urban population.

 

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

There is a clear way to get ahead in a theistic zone in Glorantha -- it is to join a cult. 

Joining a spirit cult or hero cult or a regimental cult rather than a standard divine cult is a valid alternative. A powerful local spirit may grant you better magic (not necessarily personal magic, but magical benefits) than joining one of the main deities.

In Lunar lands, there are tens of thousands of Lunar zealots following charismatic demagogues spreading their illuminating theories and activities. An age ago, the Hunting and Waltzing bands that led towards the EWF provided a similar alternative to the Orlanthi, and some of their centers of learning (those that didn't absolutely require draconic consciousness) still exist, like the Red Dragon Dojo.

Joining a mercenary company with a strong wyter may benefit an individual more than joining one of the mainstream cults. Not being initiated to the local main deities may actually make joining such a company easier.

With the adult cult initiation rate of two thirds, there is one third of the population that follows other paths to cope with the magic in their lives. Getting a personal ancestral spirit guardian may beat running to the temple all the time. Befriending a spirit of nature may give your hunter or herder more benefits than joining a cult that has little magic useful to his everyday life.

Your clan or tribal temple will still provide ransom and similar social security even if you are not an initiate of any regular theistic cult. You do lose the benefit of a wide-spread network of co-religionist cults, but that's about as far as the disadvantage goes.

And then, every Orlanthi has a different, widespread network of support - exogamous marriages distribute your blood (but not clan) kin all over the country. Ancestor worship will identify such blood kin and lend to a different support network. You may not sleep in the chief's hall, but you'll find a place to sleep near some in-law's hearth-fire.

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

The only thing that we are debating is the appropriate level for a generic, non-encounter NPC.   

I suppose that depends strongly on how you present these. I am fine with herders and hunters having a similar amount and type of rune magic as adventurers as they roam hunting grounds or high pastures half a week away from their home villages. (To my surprise, I found that the concept of distant high pastures well away from the clan village came as a surprise to other people playing Orlanthi. My old Balmyr campaign started with trouble as pastures high in the Quivins half a day's strenuous climb from High Wyrm, a few days from their village northeast of Wilmskirk.)

The same for people who are regulars in the clan warband (as opposed to the clan militia) even though they may have a totally different everyday job if that warband stresses individual feats rather than tight organisation as a unit.

Your stable hand or apple plucker may be less focussed on adventure. Initiation to the grain goddess is still a valid option that doesn't give much in the way of combat prowess but useful magic to mitigate the poverty risk of low status as a tenant.

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

I say initiate of those that directly offer life improvements.  Lay membership I would suggest is for the Orlanthi herder who wants to spend some time with the local Issaries traders.  He will help out driving the wagons and protecting a caravan route, possibly.  Or he may help in the market.  Similarly a potter may have an interest in something that draws him to the Lhankhor Mhy cult.  Either a cultural art type, or maybe historical events to portray, etc.  He will spend some time cleaning up around the temple in exchange for knowledge and research time, but wouldn't join as a full time scholar.  

Literacy of any level always means privileged lay worship of Lhankor Mhy, and numeracy above four dozens indicates lay membership of Issaries or LM.

(Btw, lay worship of Lhankor Mhy apparently is sufficient to keep Broosta married to Fleeter Nemm who is not an initiate of LM. He certainly is literate, though.)

Potters, charcoal burners and other Lowfire people are likely to follow a local spirit cult of a fire entity. Gustbran is for smiths and makers of kilns and ovens, but other ways to get the magic to control the "bonfire" level of pyrotechnology exist. Some may be available as husbands of Ernalda's handmaidens, but that doesn't mean these men need to initiate to Ernalda to  get some of the rune magic for their fires.

The "non-initiated" may wield a couple of rune points, too, and quite likely with unusual and surprising magic gained from obscure spirit cults. Look up Firshala in Griffin Mountain for an idea of this. Even more so if Daka Fal initiation is not accounted as theist initiation.

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Basically I am seeing Lay membership in several cults, and initiation into one being a typical pattern. 

Yes, that's the pattern for at least two thirds of the population, or possibly the six out of seven (the Orlanthi All) in King of Sartar.

Just about every Orlanthi (or Theyalan, i.e. quite variant culturally Orlanthi folk, like Caladralanders or Aeolians) in the region covered by RQG publications is a lay worshiper of around a dozen deities, attending the services (and associated feasts) regularly, supporting the local shrines and god-talkers with that contribution.

 

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

Which and how many depends on the culture, the lifestyle needs of the person involved, and how easy it is for them to manage the time and cost.  As pointed out, I expect that the individuals would gain as much, or probably more than the "spend" on the cult up.  Honestly I felt that was probably true prior to the Rune Magic change.  

This Rune Magic change has been around since early 1994. IIRC it was David Cheng, organizer of the first US RuneQuest Convention, who spread the gospel of rune power pools to the RQ3 (and RQ:AiG playtest) crowd - I think an essay on that was in the convention booklet, or in the post-convention publication that also had the freeform reports. It certainly was commonplace on the RuneQuest Daily in that time, so I am surprised once again that this comes as a culture shock. I think everybody's game had house rules to that extent afterwards, probably a lot less generous and a lot more complicated than the RQG proposal which basically lets your GM impose additional hindrances to regaining your rune points as an initiate if he feels that there are too many rune points around. For NPCs, simply assume that one or two points have already been cast before the encounter, and Bob's your uncle.

19 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

After it....well......YGMV, but mine has a lot of initiates, because otherwise I am asking my players to accept that a ton of people are just leaving money on the table so to speak.  What does make more sense is joining a non-warlike cult.  And since I do try to portray the members and inhabitants in as much detail as possible, random farmers and stickpickers do appear a lot in my stories.  Maybe not to go fight trolls, but combat is just one potential adventuring activity.  

Random stickpickers are very likely to come up with unexpected and exotic rune magic from obscure spirit cults in my games. Same as outlaw gangs.

RQ2 has the example of the Black Fang brotherhood for such a type of not-quite-a-cult. This kind of source for magic was obviously meant to be typical. For some reason, subsequent publications all went the Cults of Prax/Terror full cult write-up route rather than exploring more of these spirit cults. A real loss to RQ2 material, IMO.

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51 minutes ago, Joerg said:

RQ2 has the example of the Black Fang brotherhood for such a type of not-quite-a-cult. This kind of source for magic was obviously meant to be typical. For some reason, subsequent publications all went the Cults of Prax/Terror full cult write-up route rather than exploring more of these spirit cults. A real loss to RQ2 material, IMO.

More weird folk magic would be great!

(Another thing I really miss in RuneQuest is the kind of sacrifice people actually did in antiquity - "If I get home safely, God of Travellers, I will offer you two sheep." Some kind of smaller temporary benefits without any need to commit to the divinity. Of course you sacrifice to the Sea God before you go on a sea voyage - those things are really dangerous!

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5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

If you look at the economy system for farmers in the book though, you will see that you have to pay 20% of the gross of the farm to the temple anyway, and that this counts for your 10% tithing. So there's really no cost involved for a farmer couple to be initiated into Orlanth and Ernalda respectively. Which in turn means that there's almost no cost bar the POW to getting some pretty impressive magical powers. There's just no reason not to get initiated.

Hm. Yes, you are correct, I overlooked that. So yes, with that in the rules every farmwife will want to be an initiate of Ernalda or the land goddess, be crazy not to. Which throws my argument right into a cocked hat. Presumably something similar has to be true in the Lunar Empire for farmers, who no doubt have access both to Bless Crops from the land goddess and even better stuff, Hon-eel and maize and so forth, so the same should be true in the Lunar Empire as well. I still don't think it makes that much sense for every male to be a cult initiate, as if you are a farmer not a warrior you don't spend your whole life fighting. It's mostly the warriors on all those raids and counterraids. Actually, to my taste it really ought to be that all lay members get all the benefits from Ernalda's blessings and that actual Ernalda initiates should pay extra, but such is life. The economy system for farmers in the book is not consistent with the concept that only some 10% of Sartarite women are lay members.

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3 hours ago, Dissolv said:

I was thinking more sociologically about it.  Tribe 1 has a 10% initiation level.  Tribe 2 is pretty much the same, but has a 50% (male population) Orlanth/Lightbringers initiation level.  Who wins a raid?  Who wins more and takes less casualties when they have to fight outsiders?  Who consistently wins acclaim of the other tribes?   Which males consistently attract and can keep the most desirable females?    Which tribe is healthier and richer?   Even if you invest in war magic, just one successful cattle raid can more than make up for the cost....

 

As has been pointed out, it's the richer tribe that will win, not necessarily the one with more initiates. The richer tribe will have better weaponry, and can buy more magic, spirit matrices etc., and quite simply will be larger, with more spear carrying farmers. And even more importantly, more capable of having large numbers of warriors and nobles living off the farmers and herders. Now, Ernaldan crops magic is the exception, as the tribe with the most casters of Bless Crops will automatically be richer. And as for marriage, you have it backwards. Which women consistently attract and can keep the most desirable males, i.e. the ones with the most cows? The most prosperous ones, who can bring the most and best land into the marriage.

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2 minutes ago, Glorion said:

As has been pointed out, it's the richer tribe that will win, not necessarily the one with more initiates. The richer tribe will have better weaponry, and can buy more magic, spirit matrices etc., and quite simply will be larger, with more spear carrying farmers. And even more importantly, more capable of having large numbers of warriors and nobles living off the farmers and herders. Now, Ernaldan crops magic is the exception, as the tribe with the most casters of Bless Crops will automatically be richer. And as for marriage, you have it backwards. Which women consistently attract and can keep the most desirable males, i.e. the ones with the most cows? The most prosperous ones, who can bring the most and best land into the marriage.

I think there are more more variables than that, but number of initiates will influence power per warrior and the wealth and prosperity per head of the tribe, that will affect its status, ability to grow and to find allies.

In glorantha magical power affects every aspect of life.

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4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Remember, when you take into account the effects of Bless Crops, that there is equally potent bad magic out there that can wreck your crops. Dinosaurs, Aldryami, pestillence spirits, Gorakkiki swarms, some years you're lucky if Bless Crops keeps up with the relentless assault.

Well your a happy chap :)

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47 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Remember, when you take into account the effects of Bless Crops, that there is equally potent bad magic out there that can wreck your crops. Dinosaurs, Aldryami, pestillence spirits, Gorakkiki swarms, some years you're lucky if Bless Crops keeps up with the relentless assault.

Good point. And that is why the Lunar Heartland is much more prosperous than Sartar and people live better there, even if Orlanth-Ernalda magic and initiate percentages are better. Living in a land where violence is always an option can definitely be problematic.

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These are very surprising points of view to me. 

I mean, straight up Guide to Glorantha Vol.1, p. 9

Quote

The omnipresence of magic in Glorantha
means that day-to-day life is different in many
ways from that which we experience. Life
centers around a person’s cult or religion.

and for military power, Guide to Glorantha Vol 1, p. 13

 

Quote

Unlike our own Earth, in Glorantha
magic plays a decisive, often even primary, role
in warfare.

I'm not sure I agree with the "wealth = military victory".  Nomads are typically quite poor and often ferocious.  Barbarians ravaged ancient Rome (the city state), but even if you accept that premise, which tribe will be richer and how does it get and stay that way?

38 minutes ago, Glorion said:

it's the richer tribe that will win, not necessarily the one with more initiates

So how does a tribe get wealth in peace time?   Will it gain wealth in peace time better with fewer Issaries initiates, or more?  My money is on the tribe with more followers of the trader god, as well as other gods that help crafting, farming, herding, and other wealth generating activities.  What's the first thing you do in King of Dragon Pass game when you need wealth?  Increase the size of the Issaries temple to allow/attract more worshipers. 

How does a tribe get wealth via warfare?  Will it be more successful and gain more plunder with fewer war-cult followers, or more?    Clearly more better.   Besides the above quote from the Guide (which is repeated in the Arms and Armies of Dragon Pass p.6) there is again the visceral example of the two Glorantha video games.   Having trouble with combat?  Build up your Orlanth/Elmal temple is always the first answer.  More followers, more combat power. 

Maybe you subscribe to the point of view that the Rune magic comes mainly from the Priests, but Priests have to come from a pool of Initiates,  and which tribe is likely to have more Priests?  Well honestly, all other things being equal, the one with more Initiates in the first place.

Between these thoughts, and all the many publications where pretty much everyone is an Initiate, I have a hard time understanding the point of view that the majority of Glorantha theists are NOT initiated to some god or other.    From the very beginning, Initiate status was a big deal.  And not just for Rune spells.  You also get Divine Intervention, limited access to Rune spells, of course, and:

Quote

If there are any special cult skills or battle magic
spells, an initiate can learn them at special cult
prices. The exact skills, magics, and prices vary
with the cult.

So the initiates are not just sporting Rune spells around.  They also can be expected to pop Divine Interventions (think of it this way -- they negate 10% of the deaths in a battle.  That's no small thing.), and they also have better skills and spirit magic too.

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Wow this thread blew up good... which is to be expected when there is talk of rules changes between RQG and RQ2 or 3, or when there's a return to the good old debate about how many initiates there are in Sartar... let alone a combination of both! Good job people! :)

Anyway, my 2 cents here is that I don't see it as a problem than Rune Points replenish somewhat easily with all the holy days available. Nobody complained before that Magic Points (in RQ) or any other magical currency (in virtually every other RPG) replenishes in a matter of hours, or by the next day. Rune Points are still quite slow in comparison, and are still one of the main things that sets RQ apart from the majority of other FRPGs. And even with all the minor holy days, there's a limit (you only get 1D6 points back if you succeed your Worship roll).

The more interesting aspect, to me, is how people gain the Rune Points in the first place. Sure, maybe your Glorantha features flying Orlanthi throwing lightning bolts at each other at the local bar brawl (because they know they can recharge that in a few weeks before raid season comes in), but were they able to acquire these spells to begin with?

I agree with @David Scott's explanations here, but let's dive into it more. Most people get the 1 RP and spell on initiation. Once they have that, they need a POW gain roll or two before they can sacrifice some more, because on average they have POW 10 or 11 and going too low is risky. To get a POW experience check as mere initiates of a cult, they either need a special/critical success in Battle (it might happen after a good raid), or they need to wait for Sacred Time. They don't have the 500L needed for POW training. Once they get the POW experience check, they have, on average, around 50% to actually increase POW. So, again on average, they get an actual POW point every 2 years. If they sacrifice that right away, you have a curve where average people have, at best, a number of RPs roughly equal to, say, (Age - 16) / 2  (assuming 16 is adulthood). That's around 3 RPs at 21, 7 RPs at 30, 12 RPs at 40.  But remember that sacrificing POW requires spending a whole week in prayers and meditation at the temple. Not everybody can afford to take that time off... maybe there's a queue system organized by the clan elders to make sure there are not too many people going away for a week all the time to sacrifice POW, so maybe you have to wait a bit more to get your turn.

Then there's indeed the mention that initiates don't get automatic access to special Rune Magic. I agree that this information on p275 is easy to miss. Adventurers (as in : the PCs) do get access to it pretty much automatically because they probably qualify for the "exceptional service to the cult" clause... I mean, they do go on adventures and stuff, so by the end of the year, when they get a chance to gain POW and, therefore, a chance to sacrifice some, they probably did something to merit the new spells. That's probably why it's not mentioned in the Rune Magic chapter (where, one might notice, the text only ever talks about "adventurers" and not initiates).

So the average Sartarite may have a steady increase in RPs, but, as they go about their day to day business, they might not accumulate many spells. A 35 year old Sartarite might have only a couple of cult special Rune spells, even though they might have as many as 8 Rune Points. They might use these 2 spells pretty liberally based on the fact that holy days are pretty frequent (assuming they have a bit of time to spare for worship), but it means that the local bar brawl actually looks more like one-trick drunkards throwing the same spell 2 or 3 times in a row before passing out, as opposed to big show of varied magics. Since minor holy days average to ~3 RPs recovered (accounting for the uncommon fail in Worship), it will take a month or more for that 35 year old to recover all their RPs. Their family will be pissed when something bad happens and they are 1 or 2 RPs too short. So these Sartarites better limit their "leisurely" use of Rune Magic to a couple points at a time, so they have a good stash on hand for emergencies. Most likely they use Spirit Magic more than anything anyway during bar brawls and petty disputes, that's just safer.

The real problem for me so far is just that some Sartarite NPCs we have seen in the GM pack and Smoking Ruins are either (at worst) inconsistent, or (at best) lacking some commentary explaining the in-world circumstances that lead to their stats being the way they are. For instance, take Arndala in the GM pack (p105): she's a 35 year-old Ernalda initiate with only 3 Rune Points. Why hasn't she sacrificed for more by now? I think these "bystander" NPCs need more thought from the authors, so we know how Chaosium bridges the rules and the worldbuilding.

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5 hours ago, Dissolv said:

These are very surprising points of view to me. 

I mean, straight up Guide to Glorantha Vol.1, p. 9

and for military power, Guide to Glorantha Vol 1, p. 13

 

I'm not sure I agree with the "wealth = military victory".  Nomads are typically quite poor and often ferocious.  Barbarians ravaged ancient Rome (the city state), but even if you accept that premise, which tribe will be richer and how does it get and stay that way?

So how does a tribe get wealth in peace time?   Will it gain wealth in peace time better with fewer Issaries initiates, or more?  My money is on the tribe with more followers of the trader god, as well as other gods that help crafting, farming, herding, and other wealth generating activities.  What's the first thing you do in King of Dragon Pass game when you need wealth?  Increase the size of the Issaries temple to allow/attract more worshipers. 

How does a tribe get wealth via warfare?  Will it be more successful and gain more plunder with fewer war-cult followers, or more?    Clearly more better.   Besides the above quote from the Guide (which is repeated in the Arms and Armies of Dragon Pass p.6) there is again the visceral example of the two Glorantha video games.   Having trouble with combat?  Build up your Orlanth/Elmal temple is always the first answer.  More followers, more combat power. 

Maybe you subscribe to the point of view that the Rune magic comes mainly from the Priests, but Priests have to come from a pool of Initiates,  and which tribe is likely to have more Priests?  Well honestly, all other things being equal, the one with more Initiates in the first place.

Between these thoughts, and all the many publications where pretty much everyone is an Initiate, I have a hard time understanding the point of view that the majority of Glorantha theists are NOT initiated to some god or other.    From the very beginning, Initiate status was a big deal.  And not just for Rune spells.  You also get Divine Intervention, limited access to Rune spells, of course, and:

So the initiates are not just sporting Rune spells around.  They also can be expected to pop Divine Interventions (think of it this way -- they negate 10% of the deaths in a battle.  That's no small thing.), and they also have better skills and spirit magic too.

Actually, that is all true and completely besides the point. During holy day ceremonies, lay members give one magic point, and initiates ... two. So in terms of the strength of the community,  if it's mostly lay members, it is the worship of the lay members more than that of the initiates which strengthens the community and wyter and the deity magically. As for the warriors and the merchants and the nobles and probably the craftsmen, yes they have to be initiates, but they are a small minority of the Sartarite population--probably 10% in fact, these are barbarians after all, this isn't Peloria. In warfare, it's the warriors who'd damn well better be initiates of a wargod who matter, not the spear carrying farmer-herder arrow fodder. Who if they happen to be initiates and manage a DI, their DI would usually be "feets, do your stuff." How many warriors a community of farmers and herders can field is totally dependent on how prosperous it is, so Bless Crops is the most powerful magical-military weapon around. Unlike Praxian nomads, every single one of whom is a warrior, which is why in real life nomads did so well so often against civilized empires before gunpowder and such. But who are spirit magic oriented, so also probably not initiates. They get their powerful magics from their powerful shamans, not from runespells from Waha.

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1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Wow this thread blew up good... which is to be expected when there is talk of rules changes between RQG and RQ2 or 3, or when there's a return to the good old debate about how many initiates there are in Sartar... let alone a combination of both! Good job people! :)

Anyway, my 2 cents here is that I don't see it as a problem than Rune Points replenish somewhat easily with all the holy days available. Nobody complained before that Magic Points (in RQ) or any other magical currency (in virtually every other RPG) replenishes in a matter of hours, or by the next day. Rune Points are still quite slow in comparison, and are still one of the main things that sets RQ apart from the majority of other FRPGs. And even with all the minor holy days, there's a limit (you only get 1D6 points back if you succeed your Worship roll).

The more interesting aspect, to me, is how people gain the Rune Points in the first place. Sure, maybe your Glorantha features flying Orlanthi throwing lightning bolts at each other at the local bar brawl (because they know they can recharge that in a few weeks before raid season comes in), but were they able to acquire these spells to begin with?

I agree with @David Scott's explanations here, but let's dive into it more. Most people get the 1 RP and spell on initiation. Once they have that, they need a POW gain roll or two before they can sacrifice some more, because on average they have POW 10 or 11 and going too low is risky. To get a POW experience check as mere initiates of a cult, they either need a special/critical success in Battle (it might happen after a good raid), or they need to wait for Sacred Time. They don't have the 500L needed for POW training. Once they get the POW experience check, they have, on average, around 50% to actually increase POW. So, again on average, they get an actual POW point every 2 years. If they sacrifice that right away, you have a curve where average people have, at best, a number of RPs roughly equal to, say, (Age - 16) / 2  (assuming 16 is adulthood). That's around 3 RPs at 21, 7 RPs at 30, 12 RPs at 40.  But remember that sacrificing POW requires spending a whole week in prayers and meditation at the temple. Not everybody can afford to take that time off... maybe there's a queue system organized by the clan elders to make sure there are not too many people going away for a week all the time to sacrifice POW, so maybe you have to wait a bit more to get your turn.

Then there's indeed the mention that initiates don't get automatic access to special Rune Magic. I agree that this information on p275 is easy to miss. Adventurers (as in : the PCs) do get access to it pretty much automatically because they probably qualify for the "exceptional service to the cult" clause... I mean, they do go on adventures and stuff, so by the end of the year, when they get a chance to gain POW and, therefore, a chance to sacrifice some, they probably did something to merit the new spells. That's probably why it's not mentioned in the Rune Magic chapter (where, one might notice, the text only ever talks about "adventurers" and not initiates).

So the average Sartarite may have a steady increase in RPs, but, as they go about their day to day business, they might not accumulate many spells. A 35 year old Sartarite might have only a couple of cult special Rune spells, even though they might have as many as 8 Rune Points. They might use these 2 spells pretty liberally based on the fact that holy days are pretty frequent (assuming they have a bit of time to spare for worship), but it means that the local bar brawl actually looks more like one-trick drunkards throwing the same spell 2 or 3 times in a row before passing out, as opposed to big show of varied magics. Since minor holy days average to ~3 RPs recovered (accounting for the uncommon fail in Worship), it will take a month or more for that 35 year old to recover all their RPs. Their family will be pissed when something bad happens and they are 1 or 2 RPs too short. So these Sartarites better limit their "leisurely" use of Rune Magic to a couple points at a time, so they have a good stash on hand for emergencies. Most likely they use Spirit Magic more than anything anyway during bar brawls and petty disputes, that's just safer.

The real problem for me so far is just that some Sartarite NPCs we have seen in the GM pack and Smoking Ruins are either (at worst) inconsistent, or (at best) lacking some commentary explaining the in-world circumstances that lead to their stats being the way they are. For instance, take Arndala in the GM pack (p105): she's a 35 year-old Ernalda initiate with only 3 Rune Points. Why hasn't she sacrificed for more by now? I think these "bystander" NPCs need more thought from the authors, so we know how Chaosium bridges the rules and the worldbuilding.

 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Wow this thread blew up good... which is to be expected when there is talk of rules changes between RQG and RQ2 or 3, or when there's a return to the good old debate about how many initiates there are in Sartar... let alone a combination of both! Good job people! :)

Anyway, my 2 cents here is that I don't see it as a problem than Rune Points replenish somewhat easily with all the holy days available. Nobody complained before that Magic Points (in RQ) or any other magical currency (in virtually every other RPG) replenishes in a matter of hours, or by the next day. Rune Points are still quite slow in comparison, and are still one of the main things that sets RQ apart from the majority of other FRPGs. And even with all the minor holy days, there's a limit (you only get 1D6 points back if you succeed your Worship roll).

The more interesting aspect, to me, is how people gain the Rune Points in the first place. Sure, maybe your Glorantha features flying Orlanthi throwing lightning bolts at each other at the local bar brawl (because they know they can recharge that in a few weeks before raid season comes in), but were they able to acquire these spells to begin with?

I agree with @David Scott's explanations here, but let's dive into it more. Most people get the 1 RP and spell on initiation. Once they have that, they need a POW gain roll or two before they can sacrifice some more, because on average they have POW 10 or 11 and going too low is risky. To get a POW experience check as mere initiates of a cult, they either need a special/critical success in Battle (it might happen after a good raid), or they need to wait for Sacred Time. They don't have the 500L needed for POW training. Once they get the POW experience check, they have, on average, around 50% to actually increase POW. So, again on average, they get an actual POW point every 2 years. If they sacrifice that right away, you have a curve where average people have, at best, a number of RPs roughly equal to, say, (Age - 16) / 2  (assuming 16 is adulthood). That's around 3 RPs at 21, 7 RPs at 30, 12 RPs at 40.  But remember that sacrificing POW requires spending a whole week in prayers and meditation at the temple. Not everybody can afford to take that time off... maybe there's a queue system organized by the clan elders to make sure there are not too many people going away for a week all the time to sacrifice POW, so maybe you have to wait a bit more to get your turn.

Then there's indeed the mention that initiates don't get automatic access to special Rune Magic. I agree that this information on p275 is easy to miss. Adventurers (as in : the PCs) do get access to it pretty much automatically because they probably qualify for the "exceptional service to the cult" clause... I mean, they do go on adventures and stuff, so by the end of the year, when they get a chance to gain POW and, therefore, a chance to sacrifice some, they probably did something to merit the new spells. That's probably why it's not mentioned in the Rune Magic chapter (where, one might notice, the text only ever talks about "adventurers" and not initiates).

So the average Sartarite may have a steady increase in RPs, but, as they go about their day to day business, they might not accumulate many spells. A 35 year old Sartarite might have only a couple of cult special Rune spells, even though they might have as many as 8 Rune Points. They might use these 2 spells pretty liberally based on the fact that holy days are pretty frequent (assuming they have a bit of time to spare for worship), but it means that the local bar brawl actually looks more like one-trick drunkards throwing the same spell 2 or 3 times in a row before passing out, as opposed to big show of varied magics. Since minor holy days average to ~3 RPs recovered (accounting for the uncommon fail in Worship), it will take a month or more for that 35 year old to recover all their RPs. Their family will be pissed when something bad happens and they are 1 or 2 RPs too short. So these Sartarites better limit their "leisurely" use of Rune Magic to a couple points at a time, so they have a good stash on hand for emergencies. Most likely they use Spirit Magic more than anything anyway during bar brawls and petty disputes, that's just safer.

The real problem for me so far is just that some Sartarite NPCs we have seen in the GM pack and Smoking Ruins are either (at worst) inconsistent, or (at best) lacking some commentary explaining the in-world circumstances that lead to their stats being the way they are. For instance, take Arndala in the GM pack (p105): she's a 35 year-old Ernalda initiate with only 3 Rune Points. Why hasn't she sacrificed for more by now? I think these "bystander" NPCs need more thought from the authors, so we know how Chaosium bridges the rules and the worldbuilding.

Funny, my players complain that the warriors can't go up in power because, unlike magicians who cast Befuddle and whatnot, the only way they can get a POW check is through worship ceremonies on the High Holy Day or Sacred Time, so how can they ever get any Runespells, except maybe one point a year? Crits and specials on Battle from battles are pretty rare birds, especially since I only have them in battles when you have actual battles in the official timeline, as one can hardly roleplay them without a cast of hundreds and thousands. As I'm in a slow campaign, where a year of game time is about a year of actual time as each season has a multi session adventure, they find that extremely limiting. I actually let my players get POW checks for successful worship during seasonal holy days, but want to limit that by saying they have to get "natural" successes, no augments of any nature, so they actually have to work on their Worship skill

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21 hours ago, Thaz said:

I do think hunters need some love.

Leather Crafting, Butchery, Peaceful cut, Devise (Trapping in Dark and Storm season!) etc.  Plus their cults do seem a bit weak. I mean I know balance isnt a thing. But still. 

Butchery and Peaceful Cut are the same skill, and in practice there probably isn’t a good case for making taking the pelts for fur or hides for leather a different, separate, skill - it’s just another body part extracted  from the carcass. 

But yeah, you need to tan hide before it becomes leather, and tanning if not done by modern industrial methods is often really quite disgusting, pre-modern methods often involve a lot of feces (dog or bird), urine, brains, some putrefaction, etc. I’ve been to a tannery using pre-industrial methods, it’s pretty nasty. Historically tanneries were kept away from other industries and social areas, typically the edge of town or outside it. I think it is a separate trade from either hunting or leather craft, and usually done by specialists, though including it within leather craft skill for game simplification seems reasonable. Hunters might know some methods, but not really how to do it efficiently enough for a trade - their methods would still be a pretty gross though. 
 

I agree on both Devise, and the cults being weak, even weirdly so - Odayla, for example, seems deliberately to have had a lot of abilities removed since the HQ version. There is also a lot of confusing design that doesn’t seem to make sense, like linking them to Daka Fal/ when they are one of the few cults that almost always has a poor Man Rune, or Foundchild having magic that mostly uses the Beast rune, but not officially having that Rune. 

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2 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Funny, my players complain that the warriors can't go up in power because, unlike magicians who cast Befuddle and whatnot, the only way they can get a POW check is through worship

There is absolutely no reason why your warriors can’t cast  ‘Befuddle and whatnot’, almost every warrior cult grants such spells, Demoralise for example, cult spell for Orlanth and Humakt. 

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42 minutes ago, davecake said:

There is absolutely no reason why your warriors can’t cast  ‘Befuddle and whatnot’, almost every warrior cult grants such spells, Demoralise for example, cult spell for Orlanth and Humakt. 

And I'd consider Disruption to be probably the second most important spirit magic to get (after Heal of course).

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40 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

And I'd consider Disruption to be probably the second most important spirit magic to get (after Heal of course).

I don't! A successful Disruption very seldom takes an enemy out of the fight, even temporarily, while Demoralise or Befuddle often do (and you still get that POW gain tick). Though Disruption is still handy. A character from a cult with no powerful attack magic but access to common magic can use Disruption and Multispell, and its good for sniping at your enemies bound/allied spirits. 

Orlanthi and Humakti characters usually find it very easy to get Demoralise - Lunars usually find it very easy to get Befuddle. 

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10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Remember, when you take into account the effects of Bless Crops, that there is equally potent bad magic out there that can wreck your crops. Dinosaurs, Aldryami, pestillence spirits, Gorakkiki swarms, some years you're lucky if Bless Crops keeps up with the relentless assault.

In principle, I agree with you. But going by the numbers in the rulebook, where you get -10% to -20% penalties for such things, it has to be a singularly awful year to eat up the bonus. Something like ”all of the above”.

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10 hours ago, Glorion said:

Hm. Yes, you are correct, I overlooked that. So yes, with that in the rules every farmwife will want to be an initiate of Ernalda or the land goddess, be crazy not to. Which throws my argument right into a cocked hat. Presumably something similar has to be true in the Lunar Empire for farmers, who no doubt have access both to Bless Crops from the land goddess and even better stuff, Hon-eel and maize and so forth, so the same should be true in the Lunar Empire as well. I still don't think it makes that much sense for every male to be a cult initiate, as if you are a farmer not a warrior you don't spend your whole life fighting. It's mostly the warriors on all those raids and counterraids. Actually, to my taste it really ought to be that all lay members get all the benefits from Ernalda's blessings and that actual Ernalda initiates should pay extra, but such is life. The economy system for farmers in the book is not consistent with the concept that only some 10% of Sartarite women are lay members.

For Pelorians, it may be enough that some headman on the farm is Initiated and can do the Bless Crops bit, ie. I think the specialization bit mentioned earlier in this thread is probably relevant (and also fels pretty appropriate for say Lodril - though not sure if he gets Bless Crops). Basically, a farm doesn't need unlimited Bless Crops, but just enough to cover their allotment.
 

10 hours ago, Glorion said:

As has been pointed out, it's the richer tribe that will win, not necessarily the one with more initiates. The richer tribe will have better weaponry, and can buy more magic, spirit matrices etc., and quite simply will be larger, with more spear carrying farmers. And even more importantly, more capable of having large numbers of warriors and nobles living off the farmers and herders. Now, Ernaldan crops magic is the exception, as the tribe with the most casters of Bless Crops will automatically be richer. And as for marriage, you have it backwards. Which women consistently attract and can keep the most desirable males, i.e. the ones with the most cows? The most prosperous ones, who can bring the most and best land into the marriage.

Yeah, but pretty soon (a year, definitely a generation) the tribe that is stronger in magic will be richer... there's really no avoiding it.
 

17 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also how much resources you commit to priests and temples, the strength of your magical treasures, how good your Wyter is, the mood of your ancestors, this year's omens, and so on.

The Community Resources system in HQ is very useful, and RQ has nothing like it. I've been trying to create community rules, but it's not easy to both get it right and have it feel like RQ.

A system like that would be great, at least for most the types of games I intend to run in Glorantha. I've been planning on using the HQ system and just slotting it in somehow and developing it from there (but since I'm not close to running those campaigns, I haven't really done much work on this). Now thinking about that, a KoDP type allotment of Magic to specific slots might tell you which spells clan NPCs have available when you meet them. Oddly, I haven't really heard anything heading this way in Runequest. Maybe that's an area that could use a sourcebook of its own.. 

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8 minutes ago, davecake said:

I don't! A successful Disruption very seldom takes an enemy out of the fight, even temporarily, while Demoralise or Befuddle often do (and you still get that POW gain tick). Though Disruption is still handy. A character from a cult with no powerful attack magic but access to common magic can use Disruption and Multispell, and its good for sniping at your enemies bound/allied spirits. 

Orlanthi and Humakti characters usually find it very easy to get Demoralise - Lunars usually find it very easy to get Befuddle. 

Depends how often you face gorp, maybe. In the River of Cradles scenarios Disruption is a lot more useful than Demoralise or Befuddle.

Besides which, it's not like you have to choose. Even if you're at the point where you can't learn any more spirit magic, there are always matrices and spirits (apparently no more need for Power and Intellect - which I guess would be Charisma now - spirits, since anything in a binding enchantment provides its spirit magic and magic points to whoever owns the enchantment).

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4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I agree with @David Scott's explanations here, but let's dive into it more. Most people get the 1 RP and spell on initiation. Once they have that, they need a POW gain roll or two before they can sacrifice some more, because on average they have POW 10 or 11 and going too low is risky. To get a POW experience check as mere initiates of a cult, they either need a special/critical success in Battle (it might happen after a good raid), or they need to wait for Sacred Time.

It's fairly well buried, but you also get a POW gain roll for HHD worship. So double your numbers.

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Then there's indeed the mention that initiates don't get automatic access to special Rune Magic. I agree that this information on p275 is easy to miss. Adventurers (as in : the PCs) do get access to it pretty much automatically because they probably qualify for the "exceptional service to the cult" clause... I mean, they do go on adventures and stuff, so by the end of the year, when they get a chance to gain POW and, therefore, a chance to sacrifice some, they probably did something to merit the new spells. That's probably why it's not mentioned in the Rune Magic chapter (where, one might notice, the text only ever talks about "adventurers" and not initiates).

So the average Sartarite may have a steady increase in RPs, but, as they go about their day to day business, they might not accumulate many spells. A 35 year old Sartarite might have only a couple of cult special Rune spells, even though they might have as many as 8 Rune Points.

This is wrong. You get a new Rune Spell with every Rune Point. So the 8 Rune Point dude has (at least) 8 Rune Spells.

I would also add to your numbers that other POW sacrifice may be required, such as feeding the Wyter, supporting an enchantment or warding, and so on. But with about yearly average POW gain, it's very easy to fit this.

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2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is wrong. You get a new Rune Spell with every Rune Point. So the 8 Rune Point dude has (at least) 8 Rune Spells.

Not exactly you dont. Some spells are more than one point. Also you run out of spells available at your local shrine or even temple.  As we've previously discussed you might save up POW to use on a rare trip to town or a different temple to your usual. Or you may just sacrifice pow anyway to build your rune pool without additional spell selection, lets face it being able to crank out a few Heals is likely more useful than having every spell. As a GM you can restrict what is available from where. You can run out of new spells to sacrifice at your local shrine pretty quick. 

Heck my Storm Bull took ages to track down a Temple which had Fear available....Nochet with Troll town did the trick. And yes as a player I do try and game the system a bit and try and get in a successful Fear cast each season for the POW gain roll...

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