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How to deal with this much rune magic ?


Jon Hunter

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Just had a look back to see Glorion was not the only one who could have benefited from that tutorial. In any case, Jon Hunter crafted a very nice topic (in my defence, the reason for this drift was I was finding it very hard to navigate it and thought to ameliorate that situation) and for now,  I think we have squatted for long enough. Sorry Jon, et al, back to youse guys and too much Rune Magic...

If any one is interested in more tricks and a discussion on them follow the link at the top of the page to soltakss' excellent topic. 

Cheers

Edited by Bill the barbarian

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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I believe someone has over-estimated the amount of POW, and thus RPs in the community. Sure, average POW is 10-11, which would be about 50% chance to increase... But if ppl are increasing, then the increase chance lowers. So, 15 POW give a 30%, 18 POW gives 15%. 

Another thing not mentioned (recently)  is Rune Affinity, which I doubt will be really high for most people. A little irrelevant, due to the ability to just re-cast if it fails. But, Orlanthi throwing around Lightning or Thunderbolt... Only half the time !

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Remember that although regaining RP requires a days worship, sacrificing POW to gain runepoints and possibly spells takes _an entire week_ .  So for adventurers probably not an issue although when coordinating with other players can be tricky.....however for regular working Joe's and Janes that's a pretty big commitment. Added to which after you've exhausted your local Shrine or Minor Temple add in travel time and costs for staying in Town.

I'm guessing you could include this in sacred time but again your going to be on home turf for that. 

It reduces the selection of special of locals.

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6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Another thing not mentioned (recently)  is Rune Affinity, which I doubt will be really high for most people. A little irrelevant, due to the ability to just re-cast if it fails. But, Orlanthi throwing around Lightning or Thunderbolt... Only half the time !

Yep good point, but probably closer to 75% than 50%, even for average Sartarites, no?

4 hours ago, Thaz said:

Remember that although regaining RP requires a days worship, sacrificing POW to gain runepoints and possibly spells takes _an entire week_ .  So for adventurers probably not an issue although when coordinating with other players can be tricky.....however for regular working Joe's and Janes that's a pretty big commitment.

Yep I mentioned that, saying that, possibly, you need to request a leave of absence to go spend that week at the big temple in the city, and so you need to wait your turn because the elders don't want too many people leaving at random times.

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13 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Perhaps it’s a patience thing, After you have selected the text, while it is still grey keep the cursor immobile until the the rectangle (thick black lines, text stating quote selection) appears looking something like the image in the quote below... Keep at it and it will become easy ( I have been using computers since 1974 so I am getting used to them)

Thanks Bill, that actually worked! I must say patience has not always been my main virtue.

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7 hours ago, Thaz said:

Remember that although regaining RP requires a days worship, sacrificing POW to gain runepoints and possibly spells takes _an entire week_

That always struck me as strange and illogical, since, unlike with spirit spell learning, it is a deity teaching you in return for sacrificing a bit of your soul mana. In my campaign, it takes a whole day just like regaining RP, but can *only* be done on a holy day in a temple or shrine or at least a sanctified spot. Whether this is possible on a minor holy day is something I am discussing with my players, they naturally think they should be able to and I naturally as GM think it shouldn't be possible. One possible compromise is that you can't do it except as part of a daylong communal holy day ceremony, not a Sanctified holy day ceremony in the middle of an adventure out in the sticks. Which probably doesn't usually happen on minor holy days, or no work would ever get done. 

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30 minutes ago, Glorion said:

That always struck me as strange and illogical, since, unlike with spirit spell learning, it is a deity teaching you in return for sacrificing a bit of your soul mana.

And teaching IMG means that you experience the deity's action in the Godtime, possibly over and over again until you "get" the feat of the deity that corresponds to the spell.

 

30 minutes ago, Glorion said:

In my campaign, it takes a whole day just like regaining RP, but can *only* be done on a holy day in a temple or shrine or at least a sanctified spot. Whether this is possible on a minor holy day is something I am discussing with my players, they naturally think they should be able to and I naturally as GM think it shouldn't be possible. One possible compromise is that you can't do it except as part of a daylong communal holy day ceremony, not a Sanctified holy day ceremony in the middle of an adventure out in the sticks. Which probably doesn't usually happen on minor holy days, or no work would ever get done. 

I would rather put pressure on the attendance to the service. You need 50 participants for a shrine rite, etc., who take the time for the service, or you could have participants being zealous enough to pour in way more than the required two MP, making up for defective numbers by more magic and time put into the rite.

If your players can sponsor a crowd to stand with them during a weekly holy day (feasting them, etc.), they should get the rune point refill. They might attract a group of dependents if they do this more than once, with all the fun that dependents can give the evil GM. Like cleaning up after the revelers cause some kind of damage or insult, or attracting some greedy folk pressing them for what they saved having attended that feast.

The poor and destitute in the clan/village/town will usually jump at the opportunity to get fed in exchange for some magical energy while no other opportunity to better their fate shows up. That's how the Seven Mothers with their soup kitchen make inroads, too. There is likely to be some no-good bunch of stickpickers hanging around as worshipers for hire (well, food and drink and alms).

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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41 minutes ago, Glorion said:

it is a deity teaching you in return for sacrificing a bit of your soul mana

It will depend on how you wish to describe this process, but I don't think of it as the deity "teaching" you.  Rather, it is you learning to "be" the deity, much like a mini-avatar.  The closer you are to emulating the deity, the more you can manifest and channel the deity's power yourself.  This means walking through the deity's stories within the Gods world during the holy day ceremonies.  

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46 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It will depend on how you wish to describe this process, but I don't think of it as the deity "teaching" you.  Rather, it is you learning to "be" the deity, much like a mini-avatar.  The closer you are to emulating the deity, the more you can manifest and channel the deity's power yourself.  This means walking through the deity's stories within the Gods world during the holy day ceremonies.  

Well yes, but they only take a day, so spending a week to learn a runespell seems impossible for almost all cults. I think spending a whole day should do it, but only on a holy day, and probably, as per Joerg's new posting which I don't actually see as contradicting my notions, as part of a ceremony with a considerable number of enthused participants energizing it with their mana.

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56 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I would rather put pressure on the attendance to the service. You need 50 participants for a shrine rite, etc., who take the time for the service, or you could have participants being zealous enough to pour in way more than the required two MP, making up for defective numbers by more magic and time put into the rite.

If your players can sponsor a crowd to stand with them during a weekly holy day (feasting them, etc.), they should get the rune point refill. They might attract a group of dependents if they do this more than once, with all the fun that dependents can give the evil GM...

The poor and destitute in the clan/village/town will usually jump at the opportunity to get fed in exchange for some magical energy while no other opportunity to better their fate shows up. That's how the Seven Mothers with their soup kitchen make inroads, too...

Actually, that sounds pretty good to me, not that different from my notions actually, rather putting them in roleplaying rather than rules mechanics terms, which is good. Be it noted that this would be very hard to pull off right in the middle of an adventure, but players creative enough to pull something like that off I would certainly want to reward, and not just with runepoint refills. 

Edited by Glorion
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5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Yep good point, but probably closer to 75% than 50%, even for average Sartarites, no?

Although if you spend a day or two doing ritual prep you can honk that up 50% plus. And if IMG I'd allow sacrifice of goods etc just like worship. Plus location bonus. So people can augment that up some. 

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16 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Except... Runic Affinity should affect your personality. Being "stormy" is not a good trait for a farmer.

I don't think farming is really something that depends much on personality.  And hey, air could just inspire you to plow the best fields you can so you can flex on everyone else with your superior crop. Pride and boasting.

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4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm thinking 60-80% for average Storm worshipers.

I think I'm in the 50-60% boat. If adventurers, aka heroes-to-be, only get 60% to start (disregarding bonus points, which I doubt your average farmer would have), then the regular joes of the world would have an even weaker connection to the divine imo. Also, 80% could be problematic for farmers, despite my post above, since that's the level at which you basically have to act according to it (and extreme independence, violence, and "I'm the best"-ness could be an issue).

Edited by Richard S.
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6 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I don't think farming is really something that depends much on personality.  And hey, air could just inspire you to plow the best fields you can so you can flex on everyone else with your superior crop. Pride and boasting.

Farming takes commitment, tenacity, patience, dedication, stubbornness even.

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6 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I don't think farming is really something that depends much on personality.  And hey, air could just inspire you to plow the best fields you can so you can flex on everyone else with your superior crop. Pride and boasting.

Farming takes commitment, tenacity, patience, dedication, stubbornness even.

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5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

These proposals on regaining and gaining Rune Magic are

  1. somewhat reasonable from a "how Glorantha should work" point of view.
  2. contribute Minimal Game Fun and are really just "here's another hoop to make the PCs jump through"
  3. make offbeat characters, like Vostor the exiled 7M pregen, completely unplayable.

Hoops to jump through are another word for things to do during a game session. If some of your players regard interaction with the community as Minimal Game Fun, then any kind of domestic scenario is going to be a horrible waste of adventuring time. Playing out domestic scenarios will then probably be off the table, too, so you had better play in a setting where your characters are full-time explorers or similar, forget about the annual income roll, and use the seasonal holy days to piggyback on other communities' rites to regain your rune magic. In other words, play RQG as a modified RQ2.

Offbeat characters like the exiled 7M do have problems to find an operational shrine to regain their magic. I doubt there are any operational 7M shrines left in Colymar tribal lands, so the few co-religionists remaining might have to gather at Apple Lane or another such "holy place for hire" location to conduct a worship service on their seasonal holy days, or go a little farther.

Compare the situation of Orlanthi stranded in Griffin Mountain - you need to do a pilgrimage to Trilus to find an operational Lightbringers worship site. Rune spells would be pretty much one-use until you do so. That sounds like would be unplayable, I cannot imagine anyone playing such a game... or does anybody have fond memories of exploring Balazar with RQ2 rules?

This foreigner's dilemma is more or less built into the setting. Imagine you are playing a Grazelander brave worshiping Yelm who has joined an Orlanthi leader as a companion. Where are you going to find a shrine to Yelm? If you are lucky, some minor Yelmalio temple with a shrine to Yelm might be within three day's travel. You are not a worshiper of Yelmalio, so you have to jump through a couple of hoops to be accepted as co-religionist.

You want to avoid this "being stranded" for such characters? Tamper with the character generation, create a "Loyalty: XXX temple" skill to enable this character to access his cult.

Or simply define a somewhat local Earth temple to have an operational shrine. Unless you are playing a Zorak Zorani, there are few cults that don't have an association with Ernalda. Don't expect weekly services, and you might have to put some effort into maintaining seasonal ones if you need to rely on the local Ernalda cult to boost your numbers or magical energy to a level where your worship can reach the deity. Fifty people offering 2 MP each. Ten people offering 10 MP each may be sufficient. That's personal MP, not out of storage or similar.

 

Worship as hoops to jump through? Sounds about right to me. Remember dressing up for Sunday school etc.?

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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Just now, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Yes.  But never I did not spend an entire day in Sunday School.

Yes, the standards of religious activity have slackened a lot in the last few centuries. People used to spend days in ritual purification to enter the temple grounds. Coincidentally, the Christians following the Gregorian calender are right now at day five in a forty day period of ritual purification through fasting, at least theoretically, in order to prepare for their high holy day. (Western time zones may still be at day four.)

 

Just now, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And I've attended small services.  We never had to recruit villagers in order to get enough people to make it a "proper" Communion.  "For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them".  Runequest Devotion is described as a **personal** connection to your God, not a "bring out the village".

You never regained any rune points either. All you could gain was communion, possibly forgiveness , and the blessing to fortify you towards the end of the service - ritual magic done by the officiating priest or god-talker on your behalf.

 

Page 315 offers a way to maintain a holy site through ongoing activity through the lesser rites. Something that adventurers spending time elsewhere for a week or two cannot do.

That's why you want an active shrine, or a crowd of worshipers making up for your failure to do every weekly service and minor sacrifice.

 

Or you can ignore the setting in this regard.

Just now, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Nor did I imply that **any** interaction with the community is no fun.  Just arbitrary rules **changes** requiring a Temple (not required) plus some **arbitrary** number of people.

Those are the numbers I remembered for an operational shrine or temple from RQ3. Have a look at p.284 of the RQG rules about temple size and how that plays into the refreshing of rune power points, there a shrine has a lower limit of 75 worshipers.

A site can be maintained using the rules on p.315. But that means unfailingly performing the weekly services yourself (that may take a few hours).

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Don't forget "eternal life".  Some might think that important. 

Same for the Gloranthan equivalent.

3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As for Lent, that maps well to Sacred Time.  Not weekly all-day services.

You only sponsor the all-day service (purification rites for the participants, sacrifice, subsequent feast) when you want to regain rune power outside of the seasonal holy day which definitely is a full day activity with a procession, passion play or similar in addition to the aforementioned activities.

You want to produce a strong magical effect, you need to put in some magic. It's a bargain, really, as the participating initiates get to restore 1D3 rune points each on a successful worship roll, or 1 point on a failed one. A congregation of 15 initiates will recover about 25 rune points, for a MP sacrifice of 150.

 

3 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If your players like the arbitrary paperwork and accounting, more power to them.  I get enough of that in real life and would prefer to roleplay a hero.

Then get your hero worshipers to do the paperwork and accounting for you, and just spend the money. Have a follower maintain the shrine.

 

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Farming takes commitment, tenacity, patience, dedication, stubbornness even.

I'm with you. Farmers will be Barntar or Ernaldan and Earth rune followers. But this brings us to the nature of Orlanthi everyday folk. Are they farmers? Or are they more akin to Crofters. A little farming, a little hunting, a little crafting, a little bit of raiding, a little bit of foraging, a little bit of herding cattle and sheep and pigs out in the woods and hills.  I think some may be Farmers but a lot are more akin to small holders. A small garden plot for the stead but then larger communal lands. When it comes time to sow and plough then yes of course Barntar comes to the fore (sorry I don't buy the million sub cults and Orlanth the Ploughman) and his fellow clansman follow his lead. To me the average Orlanthi is a bit of a generalist and knocks about doing what takes his fancy/need that day. I might go hunting or I might not. Or I might go chop some firewood or I might not. Or I might go pick some mushrooms and gather acorns or I might not. Or I might help the Mrs weed the home fields....or I might not. Or I might go and have a long talk with my neighbour and perhaps go raid those damn Orleving...or I might not. And that strikes me as very Air Rune. 

 

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Some discussion here I see of real world models for things like minor holy days. Be it noted that in medieval Catholic Europe, you had about 115 saint and other holy days per year, during which the serfs in the countryside would celebrate the saint instead of working in the fields, and craftsmen in the cities likewise. One of the major reasons why the German nobles and princes and the merchants in the cities were so enthused for Luther, as Lutheranism abolished all that. The Calvinists took that further, even abolishing Christmas, seeing it as a pagan holiday in Christian disguise. In Puritan New England, anyone trying to celebrate Christmas was likely to be put in the stocks and decorated with thrown rotted vegetables by his neighbors, and suspected of being a witch.

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10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

If you just want to be the best farmer you can be, worship Barntar. If you want to be the complete Orlanthi male, worship Orlanth.

 

9 hours ago, Thaz said:

I'm with you. Farmers will be Barntar or Ernaldan and Earth rune followers. But this brings us to the nature of Orlanthi everyday folk. Are they farmers? Or are they more akin to Crofters. A little farming, a little hunting, a little crafting, a little bit of raiding, a little bit of foraging, a little bit of herding cattle and sheep and pigs out in the woods and hills.  I think some may be Farmers but a lot are more akin to small holders. A small garden plot for the stead but then larger communal lands. When it comes time to sow and plough then yes of course Barntar comes to the fore (sorry I don't buy the million sub cults and Orlanth the Ploughman) and his fellow clansman follow his lead. To me the average Orlanthi is a bit of a generalist and knocks about doing what takes his fancy/need that day. I might go hunting or I might not. Or I might go chop some firewood or I might not. Or I might go pick some mushrooms and gather acorns or I might not. Or I might help the Mrs weed the home fields....or I might not. Or I might go and have a long talk with my neighbour and perhaps go raid those damn Orleving...or I might not. And that strikes me as very Air Rune. 

 

Those who want to be that sort of economically inefficient generalists are liable to be Orlanth initiates. The farmers, generally more prosperous and living better, might initiate to Barntar, or might simply be content to marry an Ernaldan wife with Bless Crops, and just be a lay member of everything and not have to pay 10% tithes, a very serious matter. 

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2 minutes ago, Glorion said:

Those who want to be that sort of economically inefficient generalists are liable to be Orlanth initiates. The farmers, generally more prosperous and living better, might initiate to Barntar, or might simply be content to marry an Ernaldan wife with Bless Crops, and just be a lay member of everything and not have to pay 10% tithes, a very serious matter. 

Indeed. And, at least, IMG the majority of men-folk are indeed generalists and Orlanthi Cultists. Which utterly enraged the Lunar occupiers. Its so _inefficent_ .  (Note English and Lowlander Landlords in the Highlands of Scotland felt the same way about crofters).

 

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