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The Other Problem Spells - what magic is too weak?


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5 hours ago, Diana Probst said:

But it is a touch spell.  The boot part doesn't work.

Apparently the designers of RQ didn't worry about it being Touch at the point that is actually Glued, since those Lunars attacking The Cradle popped it on the tops of ladders while touching the bottom of ladders. I think that was what left me with the impression it was not Touch. Sorry for the error.

RQ2: 80 meters. RQ3: where it becomes Touch. IMHO maybe it should be Ranged again.

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28 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Apparently the designers of RQ didn't worry about it being Touch at the point that is actually Glued, since those Lunars attacking The Cradle popped it on the tops of ladders while touching the bottom of ladders. I think that was what left me with the impression it was not Touch. Sorry for the error.

RQ2: 80 meters. RQ3: where it becomes Touch. IMHO maybe it should be Ranged again.

I suspect a lot of people were using it as a thing to glue people down, which is then suddenly overpowered.

I'd like it a lot more if the glue were permanent, so it was a bit like repair, but not entirely.  However, that doesn't seem to be the case.

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4 hours ago, Dragon said:

Apparently the designers of RQ didn't worry about it being Touch at the point that is actually Glued, since those Lunars attacking The Cradle popped it on the tops of ladders while touching the bottom of ladders. I think that was what left me with the impression it was not Touch. Sorry for the error.

RQ2: 80 meters. RQ3: where it becomes Touch. IMHO maybe it should be Ranged again.

If you can touch a ladder at the base, and Glue the top of the ladder to a wall (or a Cradle) ...  Why can't you touch a floor, and Glue it to a boot?

<ahem>
Scuse me, did I wander outside the Egregious Munchkinnery thread again?  Sorry, my bad...

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21 hours ago, Diana Probst said:

Glue.

As written, it's not clear that it does anything other than hold something temporarily for 2 minutes, once you, the caster, have held those things together.

We have used it to glue an NPC to his saddle, stopping him from dismounting and fighting. Also have used it to glue an arrow to a bow to stop it from being fired, good when facing a Wood Lord with Arrow Trance. We cast it on a Mostali throwing a grenade once, stopping him from releasing and blowing his hand off. It is useful when sticking a door closed, stopping things coming through.

I think we houseruled that Glue wasn't touch, so was more useful.

Soltak Stormspear had Glue 9 and a 9 point Enhancing Crystal, so could cast Glue 18, with POW 18, so gave a STR 324 Glue, which pretty much sticks anything down.

Edited by soltakss

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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56 minutes ago, g33k said:

If you can touch a ladder at the base, and Glue the top of the ladder to a wall (or a Cradle) ...  Why can't you touch a floor, and Glue it to a boot?

<ahem>
Scuse me, did I wander outside the Egregious Munchkinnery thread again?  Sorry, my bad...

That's actually a good point.  Ernalda thanks you for your sacrifice to her...

But I'd probably allow a plank, or a beam.  Probably not separate flagstones.  I like the idea of Glue being used as a thief spell, TBH.  Learn it, and then use it on one end of the stick you're holding the other end of.

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22 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think that most people in "shapechanging" cultures are actually supposed to be able to shapechange regularly. I think it's supposed to be rare, like the Beornings in Middle Earth. And if they need a whole bunch of them to go wolfy? That's what a wyter is for. 10 POW, 15 full-on werewolves. Rawr!

Phil,. yer such a munchkin, but I love ya!

 

17 hours ago, Dragon said:

Glue someone's boot to the floor (they could untie their boot and get free if they cannot overcome the STR).

Now unless the spell has changed in RQG, note that the boot can not be moving when the spell is cast. Checking... no still applies.

 

 

Quote

However, to Glue two objects together, they must be at relative rest to one another, and not moving.
from RQ RiG page 262

But that guard that is almost falling asleep, cast it on his boot and the foor, steal the gold plated McGuffin cast your hallucinatory door and kick him in the butt as you flee into the wall after miming opening a door, McGuffin safely tucked under an arm.

 

12 hours ago, Diana Probst said:

But it is a touch spell.  The boot part doesn't work.

see above... again the guard would have to be half asleep but...

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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2 hours ago, Diana Probst said:

...
But I'd probably allow a plank, or a beam.  Probably not separate flagstones.

A point, I suppose.  But it could occasionally still work, with the proviso that on a wooden floor, you need to get to a plank that your target is touching...

I'd also allow it on a solid floor -- hardpack dirt, etc, such as some stables -- or a chamber of a natural cavern.

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23 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

And if they need a whole bunch of them to go wolfy? That's what a wyter is for. 10 POW, 15 full-on werewolves. Rawr!

Actually I'm wrong, it's more costly than that. It's 9 POW for all the spells, and as there are 4 spells, it needs 4 POW per 5 extra targets. So it's 21 POW for 16 werewolves, and that's a BIG chunk of even a respectably powerful wyter.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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I'm happy to see a couple threads lately highlighting how shapeshifting magic sucks. I had a thread a while ago trying to fix it, but I was mostly unsuccessful (I tried to keep my house rules vaguely compatible with RAW but I don't think it's possible). Treating Transform Self as a standalone spell which requires knowing the other ones (as opposed casting them) might be a good avenue for playtesting.

Important point, though: in terms of narrative, it's cool that, say, the Telmori are this mysterious band of werewolves who gather around their leader and wyter and go full beast before going raiding as a pack. In terms of gameplay, however, it sucks. Odayla and the shapeshifting spells are not just for NPCs, they're right there in the core book for players to pick. Even if the rules model the reality of Glorantha's tales, it doesn't mean it's good for a player-facing system in an RPG (see also: why wizards are never satisfying in an RPG adaptation of LotR). So IMHO either Glorantha needs better shapeshifters in order to me more playable, or shapeshifting should be reserved to NPCs the same way, say, elf or chaos magic is for NPCs... that said, it seemed HQ had more playable shapeshifting.

As for Glue, the problem is that RQG has a fairly limited grimoire, in the sense that characters only have a few Rune spells. So players will be careful with what they pick, and they will try to get the most out of it. If my players pick Glue for a character, I know that they will abuse the shit out of it eventually... when you have Glue, every problem looks like, err, something that needs gluing. I know I'll have to be prepared as the GM because... you're kidding, but I'm pretty sure one of them would totally go for "I touch the ground to glue it to the boot". Seriously.

I didn't realize that Illusion spells could actually create stuff, even though it's kind of explained in the rules (why did they call it "illusion"?!!!). Interesting... that does indeed open up a whole new world of fun and abuse...

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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The shape-shifting spells as presented in RQG so far don't allow you to take on your regular beast shape, they turn you into a divine beast entity instead. As the cost for heroforming, 9 rune points are borderline acceptable. An Orlanthi equivalent might be taking on a Storm Brother Lammasu shape, like those Gods War miniatures (and no, I don't think such a magic exists, yet).

I still expect there to be magic that turns beast-souled humans into their animal equivalent. A toggle that turns them from one thing into the other for an undeterminate time, that cannot be dispelled.

And the Kitori shape-shifting hasn't been laid down in rules mechanics, yet, either. Unlike the Vivamorti vampirism, Kitori ought to be playable.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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7 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There's some that didn't accept the offer and lived close to Dorastor and fought for Nysalor (Telmoria) so that doesn't quite work

I'm not exactly a Gloranthan scholar, but aren't Gbaji and Nysalor the same thing? Isn't the former just what Arkat calls the latter?

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11 hours ago, Joerg said:

I still expect there to be magic that turns beast-souled humans into their animal equivalent. A toggle that turns them from one thing into the other for an undeterminate time, that cannot be dispelled.

I'm not sure why such new magic would turn up in an upcoming book. Odayla is right there in RQG, and it's supposed to be playable "as is". I think the authors thought that was all there was to do with it.

Now that I think about it more, the thing that I find the most sad isn't that shapeshifting magic is lame per-se... it's that it's all there is to Odayla. In HQ, bear-shifting was reserved to Devotee level characters ("Master Hunter") so sure, make it super expensive so that only Rune Lord characters can access it. It would still be overpriced in my opinion, because AFAIK Master Hunters could stay in Bear form for a lot longer than 1 hour, but whatever. But in HQ Odayla also had all the Beast Charms that you could collect, which gave you various little animal powers here and there, like Animal-Man or some other cheesy 1990s super-hero. I don't know why we don't have this in RQG? Maybe because the authors felt Odayla was only about bears, and nothing else? So they instead offered the 3 spells to only take one aspect at a time? (even though 2 of those are not much worth their cost, and the 3rd is only good if you have high-enough stats).

And when you combine that to the equally lame Hunter occupation, it's a very hard proposition for anybody to pick Odayla as their character's cult.

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

People complaining about shapeshifting magic sucking miss the point methinks.  Why do you think the Telmori sold their souls to Gbaji?

I'm not sure I get your point. Shapeshifting magic is offered to players, so it should be good and satisfying to play, no? Like I said, if it was meant to be only for corrupted groups of people like the Telmori, or for mysterious NPCs like the hermit hunter that people only see once a year, then it would have been totally acceptable to keep those spells in the Bestiary or GM pack in order to preserve the narrative tropes of Gloranthan tales. But that isn't the case, these spells are in adventurer backgrounds in the rulebook.

Edited by lordabdul
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Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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