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Sword Trance et all beats shields?


davecake

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4 minutes ago, davecake said:

It is - specific means specifying an effect or target, not naming the spell. Explicitly in the Dispel Magic description. 

I'll admit the wording is fuzzy, but both spells talk about "cast against a specific spell".  Many GMs would not allow "the spell that makes him fighty".

If they do, they should also require a lot of wasted casts on a tough enemy fighter who has up Bladesharp and Truesword (and Protection 4) but not Sword Trance.

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4 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Many GMs would not allow "the spell that makes him fighty".

If worded that stupidly, sure. But in that case, they should just cast Ignite, because that’s a straw man argument. 
I would certainly allow that wording to target Fanaticism, Morale, Berserker even so. 

5 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If they do, they should also require a lot of wasted casts on a tough enemy fighter who has up Bladesharp and Truesword (and Protection 4) but not Sword Trance.

Only if people specify wrongly. Sword Trance puts people in a Trance, changing all their behaviour, so it’s fairly obvious, much more so than Bladesharp. And at very high levels, it should be more so. 
 

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19 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Good point, assuming the rules interp becomes (or stays?) official, and a reasonable GM.

On the other hand, can you really tell whether a Humakti in an enclosed helm, murdering a bunch of people, is in trance or just being a Humakti?

Edited by Akhôrahil
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25 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

On the other hand, can you really tell whether a Humakti in an enclosed helm, murdering a bunch of people, is in trance or just being a Humakti?

It’s a good question, and will vary (it will be more obvious to another Humakti, or to a Babeester Gor), but they don’t need to be 100% sure either. 
I think we have thoroughly debunked the ‘kill hundreds without opposition’ thought balloon. If it takes one Dismiss magic or a couple is much less significant. There will be some context for a specific situation. 

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2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

On the other hand, can you really tell whether a Humakti in an enclosed helm, murdering a bunch of people, is in trance or just being a Humakti?

There should be no logical reason for a Humakti to perceive all the civilians in Notchet as enemies. Such an act would be dishonorable. (Looking at you, Anakin!)

I did notice the jump from the Berserk to the Sword Trance a few posts back... So, which one do you want?

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4 hours ago, davecake said:

Well, if he somehow managed to find a part of the city where no one had any magic whatsoever

In Notchet?

I don't think such a place exists...  even slaves and trollkin have magic.

(Yes, I do believe you were being sarcastic....)

Edited by Shiningbrow
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Having actually played in a game where a PC cast Sword Trance.

 1) yes, in a few melee rounds the opposition got their act together and dismissed it.

 2) in the meantime, as I recall, he took down two opponents and disarmed another (special parry vs. miss will do that). Their Scorpionmen intelligently stopped biting and stinging because it was just damaging themselves!

 3) The round after it was dismissed, the PC obviously thought the spell was very effective because he immediately recast it.

 4) The other party fighters, including my ZZ Dark Troll, were completely ignored by the bad guys casters.  All their focus was on the Hunakhti.

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Honestly I'm not sure there's really a problem with saying:

I cast Dismiss Magic 4, and target in order Sword Trance, Shield, Bladesharp, and Protection.

I mean obviously in world that's not what they'd say, but that's not really a problem. The issue happens if the target has, say, Sword Trance, Shield 5, and Bladesharp 3 up. Does the Dismiss skip over the Shield because it isn't powerful enough and just go straight to the Bladesharp?

At best, unclear.

But in any case, honestly if the best thing you can think of to do with your magic is to dispel the other guy's magic... then your magic kind of sucks. There are certainly cases where it's appropriate but if it's your go-to response for why Spell X Isn't Overpowered then it is a little unconvincing, as it's not really clear what spell could possibly merit the "overpowered" definition if "oh but it can be dispelled" is allowed as a defence.

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29 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

In older material, sometimes characters did talk like this. Paulis Longvale writes about things like "Xenohealing" and "Heal 4" (!!).

I can see LM or certain Lunar's writing like that. 

And others having entirely different standards and the arguments going on for years. 

"Using the Longvale standard units of spell casting..."

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1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

I mean obviously in world that's not what they'd say, but that's not really a problem. The issue happens if the target has, say, Sword Trance, Shield 5, and Bladesharp 3 up. Does the Dismiss skip over the Shield because it isn't powerful enough and just go straight to the Bladesharp?

At best, unclear.

No. The Dismiss fails because of the Shield - so zero affect.

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Just now, Shiningbrow said:

No. The Dismiss fails because of the Shield - so zero affect.

While you are right in the standard case (Shield countermagic protects versus dispels on other spells), it's not clear that your Shield protects not only yourself but also your sword. The sword may (I would rule that it does) count as a separate, non-protected target.

Also, note that you could Dispel spells protected by the Shield through boosting your Dispel.

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9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

(If) Shield protects not only yourself but also your sword. The sword may (I would rule that it does) count as a separate, non-protected target.

Interesting. I would normally treat the weapon as part of the target and shield covers both....however as allied spirits can be weapons for some cults...hmmmm.....or indeed spirits bound into them.

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3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

 3) The round after it was dismissed, the PC obviously thought the spell was very effective because he immediately recast it.

That limits the spell to 11 magic points, or the swordperson will be out of attacks for two melee rounds. And while 110% is an insanely high boost, it is nowhere near the "plus 240%" effects that have been made the strawman here. There are characters who can get into this region with Fanaticism, a one point spirit spell. If you have mooks (like cannon-fodder trollkin or bagogi males), fanaticise them.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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12 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

By the way, I have no problem believing in Humakti mass-slashings, but in a magical community, numbers will take you down eventually. If the average initiate has 2-3 Rune Points, that's a lot of Dispels coming your way!

Not to mention 100 Trollkin with slingshots. Quantity has a Quality all of its own. 

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On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 12:35 AM, Richard S. said:

Honestly I'm at the point of saying that the only benefit larger skills get is increased special and critical chances. To hell with reducing people's skills and stuff like that, I don't see the point.

Agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed.

This is RQ! People have magic, weapons break, undefended attack specials/crits will happen. Even if it's a 1-on-1 duel with unbreakable weapons and both opponents are out of MP/magic… That's what those 2-day-long epic hero battles are made of!

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4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

No. The Dismiss fails because of the Shield - so zero affect.

Interesting. So you're saying if you have Shield (or Countermagic) up that has to be dispelled first? That is ... interesting. I wouldn't necessarily have concluded that. I would have thought Shield and Countermagic only protect you against spells that target you directly (Disruption, Sever Spirit, Befuddle type effects), and that Dismiss/Dispel effects are targeted on your spells, not on you.

That makes Countermagic a lot stronger than I had realised (Shield was already plenty strong); you could quite reasonably throw up Shield 5 to protect your Sword Trance then. I'm ... not sure that's really making the case that "Sword Trance isn't that bad because it can be Dismissed" if you can shove it behind a Shield spell.

Have I misunderstood, or does this not make Sword Trance arguments to the effect "Well it will just get Dismissed" pretty much "ORLY did you not see this Shield spell I put up first?" overruled?

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1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

Interesting. So you're saying if you have Shield (or Countermagic) up that has to be dispelled first? That is ... interesting. I wouldn't necessarily have concluded that. I would have thought Shield and Countermagic only protect you against spells that target you directly (Disruption, Sever Spirit, Befuddle type effects), and that Dismiss/Dispel effects are targeted on your spells, not on you.

That makes Countermagic a lot stronger than I had realised (Shield was already plenty strong); you could quite reasonably throw up Shield 5 to protect your Sword Trance then. I'm ... not sure that's really making the case that "Sword Trance isn't that bad because it can be Dismissed" if you can shove it behind a Shield spell.

Have I misunderstood, or does this not make Sword Trance arguments to the effect "Well it will just get Dismissed" pretty much "ORLY did you not see this Shield spell I put up first?" overruled?

It's clear that it has to surpass the Shield's 10 pts of Countermagic to take effect. The real question is, once the Dispel surpasses the Countermagic, which spell gets dispelled? Not Bladesharp, since that's on the weapon... And we do know that defensive spells get dispelled fist, but one could (munchkinly) argue that Sword Trance is defensive (parry anyone?).

Edit: Actually it dispels the most powerful defensive spell, so definitely Shield in this example. The question remains, what constitutes a defensive spell?

Edited by gochie
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4 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Interesting. So you're saying if you have Shield (or Countermagic) up that has to be dispelled first?

No, they simply need to be overcome, which can be by intrinsic spell strength (not the case with Dismiss) or by boosting the spell across that margin with some extra MP.

Note that a character wearing Countermagic needs to overcome (and destroy) the Countermagic to re-cast Sword Trance. Not a problem with a sufficiently high boost, but that takes down the Countermagic (although not the corresponding effect from the Shield).

Countermagic itself is nice because already a 1 point CM will negate a Dismiss once (up to one point stronger will be blocked). If you want it to remain after an un-boosted attempt to Dismiss, it would have to be 4 points.

 

4 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

That is ... interesting. I wouldn't necessarily have concluded that. I would have thought Shield and Countermagic only protect you against spells that target you directly (Disruption, Sever Spirit, Befuddle type effects), and that Dismiss/Dispel effects are targeted on your spells, not on you.

Everything covered  by your aura, which would even include a short knife blade or armor, but not a short sword or a hatchet, or a shield of any kind.

 

4 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Have I misunderstood, or does this not make Sword Trance arguments to the effect "Well it will just get Dismissed" pretty much "ORLY did you not see this Shield spell I put up first?" overruled?

Shield 5 requires 11 points in total to overcome it (which a Sword Trance boosted with nine magic points would provide just as readily as a Dismiss with a 9 points boost.). To dismiss the shield, you would need 5 rune points (to match the Shield's strength) and a magic point (to bypass its CM effect).

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Shield 5 [...] To dismiss the shield, you would need 5 rune points (to match the Shield's strength) and a magic point (to bypass its CM effect).

You don't need that final MP to dismiss the Shield.

RQG: "The total points of the spell must be eliminated to destroy the spell. Thus [...] to dispel a 1-point Shield (a Rune spell) requires 2 points". That is, the countermagic from the Shield doesn't in fact act as countermagic for the Dispel attempt against the Shield itself. This would also indicate that if you have Shield 4 + Countermagic 4, you still only need 8 points of dispelling to take out the Shield.

EDIT: Or is this against Shield 5 + CM 1 as mentioned earlier? Even then it's not clear that the Shield's countermagic serves as countermagic for Dispel attempts against itself.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

That makes Countermagic a lot stronger than I had realised (Shield was already plenty strong); you could quite reasonably throw up Shield 5 to protect your Sword Trance then. I'm ... not sure that's really making the case that "Sword Trance isn't that bad because it can be Dismissed" if you can shove it behind a Shield spell.

Nah, Countermagic is usually really bad, because it can get popped almost accidentally (that Countermagic 4 you had up? The Sunspear pops it without even noticing it on the way in). Shield is ridiculously powerful, though, although once MPs are a trivial currency, the Sword Trance is at risk because of Dispel + Boost (plus the economy means that your re-casting of Sword Trance costs as much as the Dispel did in the first place).

There are basically two ways to protect your Sword Trance - through Shield countermagic, and through "bait" spells. If an opponent doesn't have Soul Sight or knows enough about Humakti to call out Sword Trance as the target, any one-point Spirit Magic on you will soak up dispels first through the targeting rules.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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