Jump to content

Sword Trance et all beats shields?


davecake

Recommended Posts

As for "easily" reading runes from far away.  Let's make the very generous assumption that they aren't covered or obscured, and are decent contrast.

A typical driver must be able to read a car license plate from roughly 20 meters.  A US plate is 6" tall, so letters of ~5"?  So, a high contrast rune of about 5" should be readable from 20 meters, which is 1 round away.  Of course, at that range there will be tossed javelins, screaming and charging and many other distractions.  Maybe you guys have big heads, but 5" is about the limit for tattoos on my face.  🙂

Move back to 100 meters, just out of bow range, a typical start of combat range, and the runes have to be much larger.  A good use for Farsee.  But for most observers any runes will be indistinguishable at that range.

Edited by Rodney Dangerduck
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I said in a different thread - there are other reasons to dislike Sword/Axe Trance besides whether it is overpowered. 

There are very few spells that are designed that way - you can pump as many magic points as you want in for an arbitrarily huge effect - and the only other major one that springs to mind is Heal Wound, which is self limiting (there are a few other odd ones too, like Lock, that seem very specific). So there are questions like how that works for penetration of magic defences, or for dispelling, that are awkward and annoying as well as it leading to all sorts of ridiculous discussions about 2000% skill attacks. 

So considering whether it wouldn't be much easier to just say it always doubles Skill (which puts it in line with Arrow Trance and Berserker), and takes no magic points, and be done. So many rules problems go away with a wave of the hand (and they remain uniquely powerful spells for their ability to increase melee attack and parry both). 

(and as an aside - one of the most core mechanics the whole sorcery system is designed around is that spells that increase their effect with magic points have a strict limit to the number of magic points you can apply - it seems like a good principle}

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, davecake said:

There are very few spells that are designed that way - you can pump as many magic points as you want in for an arbitrarily huge effect -

The craziest such effect is Maran’s earthquake spell, which combines free Magic point spending with a geometric increase in effect. It takes less than 50 MP to affect all of Glorantha.

Not the most useful spell, perhaps, but the effect is absurdly powerful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Huge?  Also, see any runes on the others?  Any at all???

Yes, her chest is covered with them.  And yes the others have several, note the HUGE movement/air rune. All excellent points well made for spotting them in advance. 

I'd also point those are old images from previous product lines where the obvious tat's and scarring were less mentioned. The game's focus has moved to a much more formalised form of warfare for example where clashes of champions are much more common. Looking and reading the Guide/RQG/Source I read it as most elites will indeed be very obvious in their cult allegiance and indeed clan/family.

 

Edited by Thaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Is there anything to say that hasn't already been said, or are we all just re-stating our opinions?

I tried to present some facts on what a normal person could see at what distance.  Car license plates can be read at 20 meters.  Most runes (at least tats) seem to be no larger than them.  Come to your own conclusions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/6/2020 at 12:19 PM, soltakss said:

Sorry, but if I face someone who seems to be in a trance and has a huge skill with a sword, I am going to Dispel the Sword Trance, probably using Multispell and getting several goes at it.

We used to play that you could target Offensive or Defensive spells, rather than naming spells.

Indeed, if you make that INTx5 roll, you should be able to figure that out. Because now at least we have a statement from Jason, albeit nothing in the rules unfortunately, saying that Sword Trance is like Arrow Trance. Without that trance obviousness, it would be more like INTx2 or 3. The current rules don't allow targeting offensive or defensive spells as a generality, although certainly GM's can and maybe should do that as a house rule. The rule is that if you don't say what you are targeting, you automatically target the largest defensive spell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The craziest such effect is Maran’s earthquake spell, which combines free Magic point spending with a geometric increase in effect. It takes less than 50 MP to affect all of Glorantha.

Not the most useful spell, perhaps, but the effect is absurdly powerful.

If you are a Maran Gor worshipper, spending 50 points to shake down all of Glorantha would sound quite useful indeed. To the greater glory of Maran Gor to the max. The only reason it doesn't happen fairly often is that it's a small cult, so a 500 pound Maran Gor priestess whose avoirdupois means she can survive the Giant Quake nicely and has *access* to 50 MP probably only does that every 20 years or so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/7/2020 at 9:21 PM, metcalph said:

A tactic that has not been mentioned when seeing who the best warriors are has been to adopt disguises.  Patroclus wore Archilles armour during the Trojan War

Spotting a old foe by distinctive bit of gear is a truism. Lending out an old distinctive bit of kit to a newbie can have unintended consequences 😄 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/7/2020 at 8:44 PM, Thaz said:

In my Campaign the Defense of Apple lane went very well because the players won the recon battle. However they didn't kill all of those Tusk Riders....and the next outing will be harder. 

And so it goes. The next encounter my Players with their local friendly* Tusk Riders went differently.

The TR had called up some impressive re-reinforcements (Not least because only their leader survived Apple Lane). Note Tusk Riders are particularly interested in taking on decent opponents because they want their hands.  They suckered the players into attacking without much recon (amazing how effective torturing a few clans folk can be) which put the players on the receiving end of multiple charging Riders/Tuskers. Of of the latter one-shoted the party Hunter/Yinkin cultist who had managed to break up the charge with several effective leg shots on Tuskers. (Yinkinte who had just completed HeroQuesting/Heroforming the Blue Boar quest and was as a result doing bonus damage to Tuskers). 

To bring this back on topic the Humakti did get his Sword Trance off while bracing for the charge. However he's also cast a 1 point shield up front (I'll ask if that was deliberate) and so when the dispel went in it took out the Shield not the Truesword. Attempts to disarm him didn't work due to high parry specials and in fact parrying a natural weapons was highly effective in taking out extra opponents. That and the groups fau-shaman getting in a good befuddle on round #1 on the RuneLord Leader Iron Pig meant the party held the day at the cost of one dead (now resurrected) Player and two NPC's down and later healed up. Still though the Tusk Riders losses were close to the players, in Rune Quest whoever holds the battlefield is normally able to heal or at least recover the bodies and possibly resurrect and it's a major goal. The Tusk riders evacuated to fight another day...

*Not

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Thaz said:

Spotting a old foe by distinctive bit of gear is a truism. Lending out an old distinctive bit of kit to a newbie can have unintended consequences

Indeed. My campaign features a Sword of Humakt who has a honourable, but nonetheless bitter, rivalry with both Count Julan and Radak the Iron Centurion. They can definitely recognise him by distinctive gear - he has previously taken Julans shield and Radaks helm as trophies of battle, and uses them himself (albeit repainted etc to remove Lunar insignia), so they will recognise those.... 

He just smacked down Radak for a second time, too, though had to immediately retreat without a chance to plunder. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, gochie said:

I think, in the end, it's up to the GM to decide if the NPC has a huge face-tat or emblem on his shield, and how far it could be seen, and up to the PC to decide that for their character.

in my opinion, if a PC or NPC's rune tattoos and clan markings are too small to be seen at a reasonable distance, then that just means they need to make them bigger and clearer. After all, you would not want to weaken your association to your deity and therefore weaken your magic and progression up the ranks by disguising yourself. (sure, there's no RQ game mechanic for this, but that's a minor flaw in my opinion)

and yes, I did say I'm out of here, sorry about that, I'm weak

Edited by PhilHibbs
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

in my opinion, if a PC or NPC's rune tattoos and clan markings are too small to be seen at a reasonable distance, then that just means they need to make them bigger and clearer.

Also there are practical reasons. Do you _really_ want to start something with someone who has a dirty great big death rune right between their eyes? Maybe you should just buy them that beer after all? I mean we all hate chaos right? 

And if you're Clan and Tribe ink is obvious then maybe when your down on your luck, your horse just threw a shoe (yes they were in thing in the bronze age), its dark season and snowing and you go knock on that isolated stead's door and they see your kin....or that they once were done a favour by your Uncle...or his Dad fought alongside yours at Grizzly Hills....

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Thaz said:

Attempts to disarm him didn't work due to high parry specials and in fact parrying a natural weapons was highly effective in taking out extra opponents

Thanks for the report, nice to see how others did.  (In our Apple Lane battle we had a couple of titanic, cinematic cavalry charges with much shattering of shields)

So, despite your PCs badly losing the recon war, the Sword Trance proved highly effective, arguably even decisive?  And tricky to dispel. 

One of my earlier posts I noted how awesome it was against natural weapons, you support that.

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

in my opinion, if a PC or NPC's rune tattoos and clan markings are too small to be seen at a reasonable distance, then that just means they need to make them bigger and clearer

If you assume that the torso is covered by clothes or armor, there's a limit to the size of heads and arms.  At a reasonable distance (over 100 meters before a battle starts) the only area large enough would be your shield.  Or something like a Japanese Nabori.

Or there needs to be more use of Farsee before a battle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll reply at length later. But no. Despite being in a bad location they spotted the ambush. Sword Trance was certainly effective and the Humakti was certainly a big hitter.... But so was a Yinkin hunter. Its was a really great team effort. 

And now their facing the big bad and the Humakti is running on empty.... 

Sword Trance is awesome. While it lasts. Just like berserk and a few other spells. 

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

and yes, I did say I'm out of here, sorry about that, I'm weak

You are playing a Trickster, aren't you? Entirely in character.

  • Haha 1

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If you assume that the torso is covered by clothes or armor, there's a limit to the size of heads and arms.  At a reasonable distance (over 100 meters before a battle starts) the only area large enough would be your shield.  Or something like a Japanese Nabori.

I think we have wildly different perceptions both to the look and feel of both general population and the nature of Gloranthan warfare. YGMV  and indeed should.  I'm very happy my interpretation fits very well with whats described in RQG and the nature of warfare as described by Greg et al. Having spent a load of time in a shield wall personally you'd have plenty of time to ID and cast Spirit or quick cast rune magic before blows are exchanged. And yes people do have dirty great big runes on their helms and shields. I could certainly pick out which group and most importantly captains and skilled fighters with relative ease. Choosing which guys looked weak and to lead the boar snout into was kinda my job. 

Sword Trance adds MP and therefore time to cast. If it wasn't for his archery support taking out a couple of charging tuskers would have been 3-1 against lance equipped foes without his mega-parry spell and in a very bad way. Team work made the fight not Sword Trance. And as previously mentioned the bad guys ran away to fight another day and 30 minutes later the group now find itself in another dangerous fight and the Humakti is flat bust.  2MP and 0 RP. A little better of than a snoring Storm Bull would be perhaps but still... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...