Does illumination turn you to a "monster"?

[Pheres]

Hello all of you, i have read things about illumination in the Guide and other sources. This process let me think that perhaps, because illumination is a process that is making you seing everything as an illusion, that you can pass from human to inhuman being.

I explain: it's seems that illumination can put away from you your empathy, and that you don't feel hurt when an other human is hurt, so you become something different than a human...

Am i true? Is the respons not only yes or no, but can depend on the initiation process itself?

[GAZZA]

14 minutes ago, Pheres said:

Hello all of you, i have read things about illumination in the Guide and other sources. This process let me think that perhaps, because illumination is a process that is making you seing everything as an illusion, that you can pass from human to inhuman being.

I explain: it's seems that illumination can put away from you your empathy, and that you don't feel hurt when an other human is hurt, so you become something different than a human...

Am i true? Is the respons not only yes or no, but can depend on the initiation process itself?

"Opinion differs on the matter". For example, Arkat was an Illuminate, and at least most propaganda portrays him as a good guy. On the other hand he is the classic "I'm alright Jack, pull up the ladder" type he doesn't like the idea of other people becoming illuminated, and has spread a whole pile of anti-Nysalor propaganda...

Essentially every illuminate will answer that question differently. Remember however that it's possible for Chaos beasts to become illuminated; an illuminated broo (for example) no longer feels the need to destroy the world.

In fairness the idea of "illuminates as sociopaths" is hardly unsupported though.

Edited February 29, 2020 by GAZZA

[Mao]

Part of why illumination leads to people performing sociopathic actions is because illumination tears you away from your learned cultural and cult taboos. You're immune to spirits of reprisal from your cult (as outlined in Cults of Terror) and you're immune to Detect Chaos. So if the only thing stopping a person from using Chaos or non Cult-compliant means to get ahead in life was those taboos in the first place... then they might well become an illuminated Chaotic sociopath and happily so.

On the other hand we know illumination does not completely destroy your sense of self and core beliefs. Arkat and the Arkati hate Chaos so much that even illuminated they hold on to their requirement to fight it. How this differs from say an Uroxi  becoming illuminated and then becoming utterly distraught, I don't really know. Perhaps it's a question of constructing a thought out and 'measured' hatred or belief in your head that can stick with you (personally YOU, not your cult) rather than the blind (but justified) fury of the Storm Bull adherents.

[Qizilbashwoman]

Illumination is in a sense recognising the lack of self and differentiation. The reason people start to lose their way from the point of mundanes is that they lose the ability to understand emotionally things like "evil". They see Chaos, but they don't see "evil", they see "process of unweaving the web of reality".

Thus, as demonstrated in HQ rules, Samastina illuminated must roll to remember not to suggest the beleaguered Esrolian capital city ally with Queen Two-Barb and her scorpionmen against the Lunars. This is a logical move for the desperate but it will result only in horror and repulsion, feelings she does not have about Chaos anymore, having been Illuminated.

HeroQuest Glorantha, p. 205, sidebar:

Quote

 

Illumination is madness inducing. Only the strongest or most grounded minds and wills can retain the mask of normality after this shattering epiphany. When the GM believes it is appropriate, she may require that an Illuminated hero treat his Illumination ability as a Flaw, and must overcome it with some other ability. If he fails, he acts in matter that is demonstrably insane or aberrant to any non-Illuminate. Perhaps he kills innocents, reveals that he believes Chaos is not evil, blurts out an invocation to an enemy god or even a Chaos deity, or acts in a manner obviously incompatible with traditional cult teachings.

Now Illuminated, Samastina seeks to build new alliances to defend Nochet’s interests. She summons her council to discuss potential allies – the other players suggest they treat with the Western Barbarians, the Grazelanders, and the Wolf Pirates, but Kris is not sold completely.

Claudia decides this is a moment Samastina’s Illuminated status could get her in big trouble. She tells Kris that she has forgotten one potential ally – the Scorpion Queen Bagog Two-Barb of Larnste’s Footprint, a Chaotic demigoddess.

“We can’t ally with her!” Kris says. “She’s a Chaotic monster!”

Claudia replies, “Then you need to overcome your own Illumination – you are willing to accept Chaos. The difficulty is 5W, same as your Illumination, and you need to find an ability other than your Earth Rune. Otherwise you will suggest that to your own court.”

“Samastina is ambitious and knows that saying something like that would greatly endanger her position

as queen. She’s going to oppose with her Ambitious (wants to be queen) characteristic, which has a rating of 6W.”

Claudia says, “Masteries cancel, now roll the dice.”

 

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Qizilbashwoman

[GAZZA]

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

Illumination is in a sense recognising the lack of self and differentiation. The reason people start to lose their way from the point of mundanes is that they lose the ability to understand emotionally things like "evil". They see Chaos, but they don't see "evil", they see "process of unweaving the web of reality".

As I understand it, the illuminate would argue that it isn't that they no longer know what "evil" means. It's that they realise Chaos isn't inherently evil, any more than a hungry Uz is.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 minute ago, GAZZA said:

As I understand it, the illuminate would argue that it isn't that they no longer know what "evil" means. It's that they realise Chaos isn't inherently evil, any more than a hungry Uz is.

Well I think it depends on the school of Illumination

[Grievous]

Well, it can, but it doesn't have to. The Lunars would term that Occlusion. And because Illuminated beings will quite easily display behaviour patterns that are very different from cultural norms, they will often be called crazy and evil even when they are not. They will not obey the limits of accepted society, but that can go in many different directions. Thus the term Occlusion also could become a weapon to wielded against any Illuminate that you don't agree with.

I also think the topic discussed in the book Zen at War is quite relevant here.

[AndreJarosch]

47 minutes ago, Grievous said:

Well, it can, but it doesn't have to. The Lunars would term that Occlusion. And because Illuminated beings will quite easily display behaviour patterns that are very different from cultural norms, they will often be called crazy and evil even when they are not. They will not obey the limits of accepted society, but that can go in many different directions. Thus the term Occlusion also could become a weapon to wielded against any Illuminate that you don't agree with.

I also think the topic discussed in the book Zen at War is quite relevant here.

For me Illumination has something in commen with science. 

If you live in Glorantha, where everything is about myth, and you see the patterns behind these myth, rather to follow the stories, then you become something like the first natural scientists of Earth: Galileo, Newton... 

There comes a moment you see behind all these myth and stories and see the pattern, and from there is no way back. You always will see the patters besides or instead of the myths. 
That makes you a very lonely being: because with your understanding of the world you are outside of the group you were raised. 

You can still follow the way of Orlanth, Ernalda, Humakt, ... but with your understanding you don´t belive in them anymore, you use the patterns for which they stand for your own interests. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by AndreJarosch

[Sir_Godspeed]

10 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

For me Illumination has something in commen with science. 

If you live in Glorantha, where everything is about myth, and you see the patterns behind these myth, rather to follow the stories, then you become something like the first natural scientists of Earth: Galileo, Newton... 

There comes a moment you see behind all these myth and stories and see the pattern, and from there is not way back. You always will see the patters besides or instead of the myths. 
That makes you a very lonely being: because with your understanding of the world you are outside of the group you were raised. 

You can still follow the way of Orlanth, Ernalda, Humakt, ... but in your understanding you don´t belive in them anymore, you use the pattern for wich they stand for for your own interests. 

I'd argue that this "scientific" (or law-based, ie. "nomic") view is more akin to God Learner sorcery. It's not necessarily illuminated, just de-anthropomorphized, universalistic and uniform. You can make a case for explaining this rationally and might get across the point pretty well.

Illumination, however, goes beyond that. Even the Runes and rules and Laws are just illusions. You yourself is an illusion too. Everything is everything, separated only by ephemeral perceptional bias. Structure is artifice of the mind, desperate to find footing in a ceaselessly dynamic existence. Dichotomies are crutches. It's not something that can be transferred or taught by explanation. It has to be experienced to be understood.

[Monty Lovering]

31 minutes ago, AndreJarosch said:

For me Illumination has something in commen with science. 

If you live in Glorantha, where everything is about myth, and you see the patterns behind these myth, rather to follow the stories, then you become something like the first natural scientists of Earth: Galileo, Newton... 

There comes a moment you see behind all these myth and stories and see the pattern, and from there is no way back. You always will see the patters besides or instead of the myths. 
That makes you a very lonely being: because with your understanding of the world you are outside of the group you were raised. 

You can still follow the way of Orlanth, Ernalda, Humakt, ... but with your understanding you don´t belive in them anymore, you use the patterns for which they stand for your own interests. 

Yeah this is kinda like the spin I put on it.

Illuminates are ambitheists; they know gods exist but realise they were once mundane and that the mundane may become gods, so don't think it's that special. Just dangerous entities to be avoided or exploited.

[Pheres]

1 hour ago, AndreJarosch said:

For me Illumination has something in commen with science. 

If you live in Glorantha, where everything is about myth, and you see the patterns behind these myth, rather to follow the stories, then you become something like the first natural scientists of Earth: Galileo, Newton... 

There comes a moment you see behind all these myth and stories and see the pattern, and from there is no way back. You always will see the patters besides or instead of the myths. 
That makes you a very lonely being: because with your understanding of the world you are outside of the group you were raised. 

You can still follow the way of Orlanth, Ernalda, Humakt, ... but with your understanding you don´t belive in them anymore, you use the patterns for which they stand for your own interests. 

If you go this way, remember that philosophy is the mother of all sciences. And goal of them is to see the Truth. So seeing limitation of a cult don't mean that you will become less human.

From my experience it's the opposite in fact...

I can remeber what have said to me someone i have met. He knew that i am atheist and he told me that if he stop trusting in god he will make a lot of bad things! But, he was wrong, as social animals human have a lot of inner rules and mecanism that let us be social animals, like don't hurting someone else, because our empathy let us feel what will feel this one, and we don't want to be hurt!

Sciences and philosophy can show you that cults or cultural bad practices are bad, and using philosophy as a tool to change yourself can turn you to an outsider, from a cultural point of view, but a human one, because the things that's stay are your human mecanism.

Something that let you forbid your species mecanism, like empathy, is not something that make you great, but something that make you mutilated...

Perhaps Illumination in Glorantha is something that let you loose your humanity/soul/spirit and let you mutilated?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'd argue that this "scientific" (or law-based, ie. "nomic") view is more akin to God Learner sorcery. It's not necessarily illuminated, just de-anthropomorphized, universalistic and uniform. You can make a case for explaining this rationally and might get across the point pretty well.

I agree.  It's what I'd view as the complete opposite to Illumination.  "Scientific" reductionism is very much how I view the God Learner phenomenon. You can reduce everything to Runes, basic principles, etc. This can certainly lead to power-hungry or knowledge-hungry use of Chaos. But it's not Illumination which is a transcendent, mystical experience beyond the mind.

[soltakss]

10 hours ago, Pheres said:

Hello all of you, i have read things about illumination in the Guide and other sources. This process let me think that perhaps, because illumination is a process that is making you seing everything as an illusion, that you can pass from human to inhuman being.

That is one way of looking at it.

For me, Illumination frees you from seeing things as Good and Evil, Light and darkness, Law and Chaos.

You could say that seeing the opposites as illusions is the same.

10 hours ago, Pheres said:

I explain: it's seems that illumination can put away from you your empathy, and that you don't feel hurt when an other human is hurt, so you become something different than a human...

I don't think that Illumination puts you away from empathy, it just frees you from things like guilt and obeying social mores.

When Soltak Stormspear became Illuminated he realised that he didn't care about things, but decided to follow the correct processes. So, he decided to follow his geases even though he didn't need to and he decided to not abuse Illumination even though he could.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

My view is

 

when illuminated, you don't accept as a truth what is said by the community, good or evil. You can see / understand something else, something new (as society is very very conservative).

what you knew before still exist ( gods, ...) but you discover that if you don't follow their rules, they have less power on you.

what you discover/understand can be different that what another illuminated discover/understand.

 

But you know, of course, that if you are not in the limit of your community, you may be seen as a evil person.

then, if you are strong and a good person, you may continue living in your community, accepting others are different but are people. They don't see and cannot learn what you understand but they are your familily, your friends, your community. You try to stay with them.

then, if you are weak or a bad person, you may consider others not as people but as prey or threat, and becoming day after day more sociopath, trying to escape danger (real or not), trying to obtain power / pleasure (anything you consider your own right) by all means.

I would say that illumination break limits, so you become "more you ".

In a Freudian perspective, you lose a part of your  "superego", you may keep your "ego" (if you are strong enough) or not, and your "it" take the room lost by your "superego" an "ego"

 

(don't challenge me about freud, I have not enough notions to say that's good/true or not)

 

[Pheres]

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

when illuminated, you don't accept as a truth what is said by the community, good or evil.

...

then, if you are strong and a good person, you may continue living in your community, accepting others are different but are people. They don't see and cannot learn what you understand but they are your familily, your friends, your community. You try to stay with them.

then, if you are weak or a bad person, you may consider others not as people but as prey or threat, and becoming day after day more sociopath, trying to escape danger (real or not), trying to obtain power / pleasure (anything you consider your own right) by all means.

I would say that illumination break limits, so you become "more you ".

In a Freudian perspective, you lose a part of your  "superego", you may keep your "ego" (if you are strong enough) or not, and your "it" take the room lost by your "superego" an "ego"

 

That's sound good, but how can you in the same time become "more you", by don't taking care of cultural limitations and forget what is good or evil?

Because for a big part what is said good or evil in a society is coming from our human part. On Earth it's always seen as a bad act to hurt someone else from the same community, some communities extend this concept to closest or far away communities and see other human as human like us (this is a cultural limitation), but the basic concept of it come from our human part, as a social animal, it's something that's coming from our basic programation... I aggree that an individual will have a different feeling about it, someone without cultural limitation will see only its closed family members as members of its community when an other will see all humans as its community members. But the fact is, except for sociopath, every one, outside of cultural constraints, will see someone else as a member of its community...

So becoming more you could extend the feeling that other humans are like you, when your previous feeling was that humans were only the members of your cultural community... (Ok it's depend on who you are) Becoming more you could let you see that all humans are your brothers and sisters... And you will never see "outsiders" as things, but human like you (you will forget racisism and other bad things like that), so it can open your mind and your heart!

But this feeling seems to be lost in Gloranthan illuminations, you are loosing your heart... Acting as a human become a philosophical thinking, it's not your heart that is showing you your way but only your brain! It's why i have said that you become mutilated, loosing our heart is loosing our humanity... So the true query is, does Gloranthan illumination let you loose your heart?

One last thing, from my point of view, an illuminated will feel all emotions, but can choose to control/not follow them more easily than all of us. And by loosing our heart i mean never feel emotions and turn to a machine!

But perhaps in Glorantha exists both things... Perhaps their are illuminations paths that let you don't forget your heart, becoming more yourself, and other paths were you loose it, becoming a non feeling creature? I could see the firsts path like ways developed by sentients sages and the second ones ways developed by chaotic peoples... If true, we could ask: what kind of path have followed Arkat, and what path is following Argrath, and all others that would like to become illuminated? Illumination could be a way for human to become greater, chaotic illumination could be a way develop by chaotic cults to make very powerfull chaotic tools!

In this point of view trying to follow an illumination path could be hazardous...

Edited March 1, 2020 by Pheres

[Puckohue]

20 hours ago, Mao said:

if the only thing stopping a person from using Chaos or non Cult-compliant means to get ahead in life was those taboos in the first place... then they might well become an illuminated Chaotic sociopath and happily so.

That’s only true for someone who is already a socio- or psychopath.

Someone strong in the Harmony Rune would probably not prioritize ”getting ahead in life” at the cost of others.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Pheres said:

But this feeling seems to be lost in Gloranthan illuminations, you are loosing your heart... Acting as a human become a philosophical thinking, it's not your heart that is showing you your way but only your brain! It's why i have said that you become mutilated, loosing our heart is loosing our humanity... So the true query is, does Gloranthan illumination let you loose your heart?

One last thing, from my point of view, an illuminated will feel all emotions, but can choose to control/not follow them more easily than all of us. And by loosing our heart i mean never feel emotions and turn to a machine!

Our Illuminates in our RQ2 Campaign ran the whole gamut of human emotions, Rage, Hate, Anger, Jealousy, Lust, Spite, Pettiness and so on. You don;t lose your emotions by becoming Illuminated.

One of the PCs, Rilldik Fairplain or it might have been Brankist Farlow, definitely one of Andrew's PCs though, wanted desperately to become Illuminated, mainly to show that he was better than other party members. He answered riddles galore but failed his roll every Sacred Time, then eventually made it. When he next met up with the party he was shocked to find that every other PC was already Illuminated and they were "Waiting for you to join us".

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Pheres said:

That's sound good, but how can you in the same time become "more you", by don't taking care of cultural limitations and forget what is good or evil?

Or not.

Should a woman have the same role than man ?

Should human kill animal for food ?

Should human kill animal for god sacrifice ?

Should human test new drugs on animal to save human life ?

Should human test cosmetics on animal to please other human ?

Should human destroy a wood for money ?

Shoud human build house near a sea coast, blocking other access to the beach ?

Should human buy diamands when other humans need food ?

Should human kill human for war ? for god sacrifice ?

Should human have a bath every day, week, year, when other need water to live

Don't answer , just imagine people who do the opposite thing that you consider good. Are they all sociopath ? Are they less human than you ? They may have experience, tradition, or value different than yours. But at the end of the day they are humans.

Human you may illuminate, or human who may illuminate you, or not

[Pheres]

9 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Or not.

Should a woman have the same role than man ?

Should human kill animal for food ?

Should human kill animal for god sacrifice ?

Should human test new drugs on animal to save human life ?

Should human test cosmetics on animal to please other human ?

Should human destroy a wood for money ?

Shoud human build house near a sea coast, blocking other access to the beach ?

Should human buy diamands when other humans need food ?

Should human kill human for war ? for god sacrifice ?

Should human have a bath every day, week, year, when other need water to live

Don't answer , just imagine people who do the opposite thing that you consider good. Are they all sociopath ? Are they less human than you ? They may have experience, tradition, or value different than yours. But at the end of the day they are humans.

Human you may illuminate, or human who may illuminate you, or not

I don't answer, because you ask, and because all your queries are related to cultural behavior, not basic human behaviors... an illumination process that allow you to analyse and take control of your emotions seems, from my point of view, an enhancement, because you still continue to love and take into account other peoples. But a process that let you feel nothing seems a chaotic process! Even, if in both case you can not take into account cultural frame. In one case you are human, in the other case you are not an human at all...

[French Desperate WindChild]

There is a very important word in your sentence, and this key word is exactly what I mean :

 

Quote

an illumination process that allow you to analyse and take control of your emotions seems, from my point of view, an enhancement, because you still continue to love and take into account other peoples.

you STILL continue. That is what I say : illumination make you STILL you but "bigger", in the way you were, but now, with less limits (cultural, religious, personal) you had before.

 

It is like you see now the world with one less mask and, as your own limits disappear too, people can see you with one less mask

So maybe you were good because your community / family / friends expect you to be good, but now you are illuminated, you understand you don't need to be good, that doesn't make sense for you

Or maybe you were good just because you were good and now you are illuminated you are still good, maybe more good, maybe too good

I maybe you were a broo and you were bad because your community expect you to be bad, but now you are illuminated, you understand you don't need to be bad.

Or maybe you were a broo and you were bad just because you were bad, and now you are illuminated you are still bad

of course I simplify with good / bad approach,  but the reality is more multipolar (french touch )and a large spectrum of fealings can follow this approach

 

 

[JustAnotherVingan]

I don't think Illumination makes you a monster, although it will make you doubt things you had always accepted.

Oddi the Keen in Cults of Terror was a good example of someone grappling with an unwanted Illumination.

[Lordabdul]

My tongue-in-cheek interpretation of Illumination is that it's what happens when you realize you live in a fictional world. You effectively recognize that everything in the universe both matters and doesn't matter, and is both regulated by rules but isn't really. You only have to care as much as you want to care, and you can manipulate the rules and multi-class and do egregious munchkinery... and when players stop roleplaying, they often act like monsters I mean, my players do some really shitty stuff in order to finish an adventure sometimes   So yeah, you would definitely become a monster sooner or later, even if you don't realize it!

[GAZZA]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

My tongue-in-cheek interpretation of Illumination is that it's what happens when you realize you live in a fictional world. You effectively recognize that everything in the universe both matters and doesn't matter, and is both regulated by rules but isn't really. You only have to care as much as you want to care, and you can manipulate the rules and multi-class and do egregious munchkinery... and when players stop roleplaying, they often act like monsters I mean, my players do some really shitty stuff in order to finish an adventure sometimes   So yeah, you would definitely become a monster sooner or later, even if you don't realize it!

For a long time the joke was that the God Learner secret was "it's only a game!"

I think there is a certain confusion of God Learnerism and Illumination here. Very roughly, think of God Learners as munchkin power gamers, and Illuminates as the sort of player that wants to play a ninja regardless of whether there are ninjas in the setting.

God Learners stormed all over the Hero Plane for personal power, built devices to automate the robbing of Giant cradles, and treated the gods as, essentially, just powerful spirits they could manipulate and use as power sources. As is the eventual fate of all munchkins, eventually the GM dropped the sky on them.

Illuminates, on the other hand, are essentially free of cultural and religious taboos. But their insight is not that the gods don't exist; rather, it is that they realise the gods only know what their worshippers can tell them (even subconsciously). Thus, an Illuminate Wind Lord can befriend trolls and Yelmalions without getting impests because he realises that only his own guilt allows the spirits of retribution to find him, and that guilt can no longer be imposed as a religious taboo. (Note that the Illuminate might genuinely hate Uz and dislike Sun Domers - it is merely that if the only reason that the Illuminate was previously avoiding them was the religious taboo, he is now free to ignore that). Illumination is very much a philosophical position. The vast majority of humanity is happy to get its morality code from their culture or religion, but the likes of Nieztche, Hume, Kant, Sartre, or whoever your favourite is are not willing to just take society's word for it. An illuminate is in a similar position to such a philosopher - freed from Plato's cave, in a sense, and able to construct their own view of right and wrong.

Now, there are some philosophies that suggest without some sort of divine justice, mankind's natural state is that of the law of the jungle. Such illuminates may indeed become sociopaths. But this is far from universally true; indeed, other philosophies suggest that if the only reason you refrain from doing bad things is because of the threat of divine justice, then you are pretty much already a sociopath, you're just constrained.

Not all illuminates follow the same philosophy. There are illuminated broo High Healers; illumination took away their cultural enforced desire to rape and murder. Arkat opposed Gbaji.

Remember that when Vetinari pointed out there were no good people (only evil people, but some of them are on different sides), Vimes retorted that no, there were just people.

Edited March 2, 2020 by GAZZA

[EricW]

God learners surely mostly were illuminates after Arkat’s empire was destroyed, they would have seen illumination as a useful tool to manage spirits of reprisal.

I think the main effect of illumination is liberation from conscience. An illuminate believes all their choices are justified, no matter how horrible the consequences, they never wonder if what they did was wrong, except with regard to whether their action achieved the desired outcome.

Seems pretty monstrous to me.

[Joerg]

It may be useless for playing RQ, but as far as I am concerned, Illumination is about experiencing the Ultimate as the source of all magic and all derived existence. Any abilities that may result from Illumination is about taking out the middle men (spirits, spells, gods, runes, chaos gifts) if you survived that experience.

Does this make a monster?

Edited March 2, 2020 by Joerg