Does illumination turn you to a "monster"?

[Ali the Helering]

59 minutes ago, Darius West said:

And I in turn are saddened that you are so ignorant of the facts. Yes, there is variety, and it is amazing, but you are ignoring all the things that aren't all that different across cultures by highlighting this point.  The fact is that humans are a lot more similar than they are different.  That is the fact of the human body.  It has the same needs regardless of culture.  To put it another way, unless concepts could be translated across cultures, anthropology itself would be impossible.  Anthropology is about dwelling on and explaining these differences, but not so very interested in the many more numerous things that make us similar.

Every person's morality is a hand-me-down.  Every idea in that morality they have received from someone else.  When it comes to ethical philosophy, there is nothing new under the sun; it is all but a trope.  People say that they have a highly personal system of morality, but when they are questioned about it, you will find, as many psych studies have done, that the individuals have no new ideas, and instead they have the one or another version of some well-worn pre-existing version of ethics.

Really.  Nothing to do with punishment?  You're talking out of your hat.  Has it not occurred to you that fear and deterrence is what punishment is for?

As to torture, yes, it provides little useful info.  Most of the countries that engage in it presently use torture less for the info it provides and more for the punishment aspect.  Many people who have been tortured, were not tortured for information, but as punishment, to make them give up on their dissident political activities.  And the fact is, in pre-modern societies, that was pretty normal for most of human history.  The whole "thou shalt not torture" idea is part of modern policing from W.E.I.R.D. societies, and has yet to catch on everywhere.

Sorry, but you're wrong about this too.  Usury is a word used to describe a crime.  Finance is used to describe a similar practice when it is performed in a legally legitimate fashion, without the threat of violence for non-payment.  The laws may differ from place to place, but extortionate finance is a crime pretty much everywhere these days.  Do societies have different laws?  Yes.  But they all recognise the ability for finance to be abused in a criminal fashion, and likely have for many centuries.  All that varies across cultures is minor variations in the definitions involved.

I think that there is little point in a lack discussion on this level. 

As to ignorance, I am very much aware that the world contains more variety than I could ever imagine, and I give thanks for that every day. I have spent a lifetime of academia striving to discover what I may, but such an effort will always fall short.  To have such amazing knowledge and certainty as yours is far beyond my meager capabilities. 

Oh, btw, usury is only a crime in some cultures.  Elsewhere it is a practice. 

[Tindalos]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

One last question - is existence actually better than non-existence?

I would answer that question with another question.

Is there a difference?

[Pheres]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

The whole "thou shalt not torture" idea is part of modern policing from W.E.I.R.D. societies, and has yet to catch on everywhere.

Before the starting of history (it's begun when writing come), there were hundred thousands years of human societies, and we have no real ideas about what they were thinking. So how can you says that torture prohibition is modern? Personnaly, i am sure that somewhere in the past this idea was living... Remember that some native people of north america where socialy more advanced than the barbarians european invaders... Please forget that you are a citizen of W.E.I.R.D, and have a look again!

Edited March 12, 2020 by Pheres

[Kloster]

What do you mean by W.E.I.R.D. . I have seen different meanings for this acronym.

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

I would answer that question with another question.

Is there a difference?

How could you tell? 

[Pheres]

3 hours ago, Kloster said:

What do you mean by W.E.I.R.D. . I have seen different meanings for this acronym.

I am using Darius definition

On 3/11/2020 at 8:06 AM, Darius West said:

I refer you to W.E.I.R.D. (Western, educated, industrialized, rich and democratic) societies

 

[Shiningbrow]

17 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

How could you tell? 

Cogito ergo sum

[Ali the Helering]

3 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Cogito ergo sum

Yeah, I never bought into that one much 🧠

[Shiningbrow]

8 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Yeah, I never bought into that one much 🧠

Meditatio ns 1-3 were ok. 4, introducing God who wouldn't try to trick you, was a let down.

But, if you can think, then surely there is something that exists in some form...??? (Is all it really means)

[Ali the Helering]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Meditatio ns 1-3 were ok. 4, introducing God who wouldn't try to trick you, was a let down.

But, if you can think, then surely there is something that exists in some form...??? (Is all it really means)

However, is there such a thing as I? 

[soltakss]

On 3/10/2020 at 4:48 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

Unless this has been retconned, the secret history of the creation of Sedenya was "whoops we fucked up"

Or, "Wow, that went far better than we thought possible"

[soltakss]

I think all of this boils down to "Illumination is objectively bad, unless you are Illuminated in which case it's OK".

[Darius West]

On 3/12/2020 at 11:37 PM, Pheres said:

Before the starting of history (it's begun when writing come), there were hundred thousands years of human societies, and we have no real ideas about what they were thinking. So how can you says that torture prohibition is modern? Personnaly, i am sure that somewhere in the past this idea was living... Remember that some native people of north america where socialy more advanced than the barbarians european invaders... Please forget that you are a citizen of W.E.I.R.D, and have a look again!

How can I say the torture prohibition is modern?  Simply because I have made a study of both torture and law enforcement methods, and I suggest you do the same.  For the bulk of human history and across urban cultures, and many tribal ones too, a confession of a crime obtained under torture was considered legitimate.  Torture was seen as an ordeal that a person would undergo to prove their moral conviction and hence their innocence for the bulk of history. It's all very sadomasochistic. As to the native people of North America, wow, you clearly have no idea what enthusiastic torturers they were.  Among some tribes a captive might be given the opportunity to integrate, but that wasn't very common and was restricted to certain tribes.  Enemies captured by North American tribes could expect to be tortured, as the widespread belief was that if you could make your enemy scream, you could capture their soul and steal their power.  To be fair, Aleuts were less enthusiastic torturers than most tribes as far as I am aware, but even the Inuits were pretty enthusiastic, and often tortured and then cannibalized their enemies, which seems unusual given the generally peaceful reputation of the northernmost tribes.  Given that I mentioned the W.E.I.R.D. grouping, please don't think for even one minute that I am ignorant of what it entails. 

[Darius West]

On 3/12/2020 at 11:09 PM, Ali the Helering said:

I think that there is little point in a lack discussion on this level. 

As to ignorance, I am very much aware that the world contains more variety than I could ever imagine, and I give thanks for that every day. I have spent a lifetime of academia striving to discover what I may, but such an effort will always fall short.  To have such amazing knowledge and certainty as yours is far beyond my meager capabilities. 

Oh, btw, usury is only a crime in some cultures.  Elsewhere it is a practice. 

First off, you are making this claim regarding usury, but not providing any evidence of the claim.  I happen to know the cultures in question you are probably referring to, but it is sloppy not to actually reference the cultures you are specifically referring to for you example...  You make a big ol' point of claiming that you have spent such a long time studying this material... yeah, well so have I, and I'm prepared to include references.  You haven't, and that says plenty about your academic qualifications.  No examples=no argument put.

Secondly, you are using the English word "usury" and that carries the connotation of crime.  In cultures where certain types of financial transactions which our societies regard as predatory. bu they do not, then you are surely obliged to use the term "finance" if you don't want to be culturally insensitive, as if the culture in question doesn't regard it as a crime, why do you via your choice of descriptor?  What you are doing is making a culturally specific value judgement, and that is the very thing you were arguing against earlier.

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Darius West

[Ali the Helering]

37 minutes ago, Darius West said:

First off, you are making this claim regarding usury, but not providing any evidence of the claim.  I happen to know the cultures in question you are probably referring to, but it is sloppy not to actually reference the cultures you are specifically referring to for you example...  You make a big ol' point of claiming that you have spent such a long time studying this material... yeah, well so have I, and I'm prepared to include references.  You haven't, and that says plenty about your academic qualifications.  No examples=no argument put.

Secondly, you are using the English word "usury" and that carries the connotation of crime.  In cultures where certain types of financial transactions which our societies regard as predatory. bu they do not, then you are surely obliged to use the term "finance" if you don't want to be culturally insensitive, as if the culture in question doesn't regard it as a crime, why do you via your choice of descriptor?  What you are doing is making a culturally specific value judgement, and that is the very thing you were arguing against earlier.

 

As I said, little point. 

And no, l am not required to play your language game, the English etymology and broad usage will serve. 

Actually, no point. Bored now. 

After 40 years in Glorantha l should have learnt not to feed Uz, but hey... 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Ali the Helering

[Ali the Helering]

Anyway I now have a crisis to deal with and a congregation largely in the 'at risk' category, so I had better make myself scarce until I am self-isolated and have time to spare!  Stay safe, and may your various deities /lack thereof be with you all

[Sir_Godspeed]

Stay safe, Ali!

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

Anyway I now have a crisis to deal with and a congregation largely in the 'at risk' category, so I had better make myself scarce until I am self-isolated and have time to spare!  Stay safe, and may your various deities /lack thereof be with you all

I do not pray but I am sure you will have plenty of support there. Be safe.

[Videopete]

What is truly hilarious is that both are right and both are wrong. Illumination only turns the monstrous into monsters.  There were two basic forms of illumination, Gabaji and Nysalor. Now even then it wasn't quite right.  Illumination is not the end of a character  morality but only the beginning. It removes some of the blinders ignorance, but it is up to the illuminate to seek greater clarity.  

Yes the unholy trio did create a source of bad chaos, but that was their goal. There were other untapped sources that are not poisoned.

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

However, is there such a thing as I? 

Irrelevant. The fact something can consider the thought shows there is existence of something. Doesn't actually matter what that is (for the purposes of this topic)

[soltakss]

8 hours ago, Videopete said:

What is truly hilarious is that both are right and both are wrong. Illumination only turns the monstrous into monsters.  There were two basic forms of illumination, Gabaji and Nysalor. Now even then it wasn't quite right.  Illumination is not the end of a character  morality but only the beginning. It removes some of the blinders ignorance, but it is up to the illuminate to seek greater clarity. 

100% agree.

8 hours ago, Videopete said:

Yes the unholy trio did create a source of bad chaos, but that was their goal.

I think that Illumination helped them by removing the fear of what they were doing.

[Pheres]

14 hours ago, Darius West said:

How can I say the torture prohibition is modern?  Simply because I have made a study of both torture and law enforcement methods, and I suggest you do the same.  . 

I would like but accessing informations from one thousand hundred years ago is very hard for me. If you have found some, please let me know, i will be very pleased to begin to solve my ignorance trouble.

[Sir_Godspeed]

21 hours ago, Videopete said:

What is truly hilarious is that both are right and both are wrong. Illumination only turns the monstrous into monsters.  There were two basic forms of illumination, Gabaji and Nysalor. Now even then it wasn't quite right.  Illumination is not the end of a character  morality but only the beginning. It removes some of the blinders ignorance, but it is up to the illuminate to seek greater clarity.  

 

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

[GAZZA]

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

Harsh but fair.

[Qizilbashwoman]

18 hours ago, Pheres said:

I would like but accessing informations from one thousand hundred years ago is very hard for me. If you have found some, please let me know, i will be very pleased to begin to solve my ignorance trouble.

there's a torture museum in San Diego. it's not for the faint of heart. i've been - and the only other time i've missed a meal was when I visited the museum at the Peace Park in Nagasaki.

it looks like it's gonna be entertaining - yay, iron maidens! - but it's dead silent in there and everyone leaving is absolutely ashen-faced with horror