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Pheres

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I have a Daka Fal shaman who leave in Sartar. He want to improve his social status. But in Sartar you are not great if you are not an Orlanthi, and he can not join Orlanth cult because Orlanth cult is not an ancestors cult associated to Daka Fal cult... He don't want to become an illuminate, because he is freighten by illumination and think it's chaos related.

But he has an idea: why not heroquesting in order to turn Orlanth cult into an ancestor worshiping cult associated to Daka Fal?

I think that he has a great idea that nonone had before!!!

Oh, i hear someone saying God learners in the back... Ok, i stop trying to frighten all of you and i must admit that i was joking! :)

 

Edit: i apologize, by Orlanthi, and would like to say Orlanth cult members, not the inhabitants of Sartar and other countries who trust in Orlanth pantheon... English is a damned language!

Edited by Pheres
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This is a common confusion - Orlanthi & Orlanth worshipper. Orlanthi is the cultural grouping, within that Orlanthi worship a range of gods associated with the pantheon. Orlanth and Ernalda are the dominant deities within the pantheon, but there are many more including Daka Fal. An Orlanth worshipper doesn't have to be an Orlanthi. Other people / races can win the cult. A troll from Dagori Inkarth can join the cult of Orlanth, but that doesn't make them an Orlanthi. I think there maybe a bit of language confusion with this (with the addition of the i) as this is not the first time I'

ve come across this.

Your Daka Fal shaman was likely born in Sartar, within the culture so he is an Orlanthi. He is not a member of the Orlanth cult, but it's fine as Daka Fal is a member of the Orlanth pantheon. Orlanthi have ancestor worship, it's normally done through Orlanth, but there's no problem doing it through Daka Fal. Orlanth has many ancestral hero cults, Vingot and Heort to name just a few.

Look at the cult compatibility table

Daka Fal is Hostile to Orlanth (Orlanth broke the World).Relations are strained, and the historic tension precludes peaceful dealings. There are difficult moments when hostile cults meet.

Orlanth is neutral to Daka Fal. (Daka Fal has his place in the world). Such cults act according to present circumstance. Trouble may occur, but the spark must be deliberate, not caused by minor squabbles.

They are not enemies - These cults know no compromise. Members fight if they think they can win, or flee if they fear they will lose. No one expects or will give mercy.

55 minutes ago, Pheres said:

But he has an idea: why not heroquesting in order to turn Orlanth cult into an ancestor worshiping cult associated to Daka Fal?

Yes, this is an excellent story at the crux in the relationship between the two cults, especially in the Hero Wars.

 

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Pourquoi les américains ont choisi l'anglais plutôt que le français comme langue des US, le monde serait meilleur autrement...

I m not sure that nobody did it before.

After all what about pent tribes ?

but in another hand you have the kolati tradition in sartar for shaman. Not sure it would be appreciated to see shaman organizing something with Orlanth.

In all case I cannot see a shaman in sartar improving his social status by any way except gaining bigger power than his neighboors.

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10 minutes ago, David Scott said:

This is a common confusion - Orlanthi & Orlanth worshipper. Orlanthi is the cultural grouping, within that Orlanthi worship a range of gods associated with the pantheon. Orlanth and Ernalda are the dominant deities within the pantheon, but there are many more including Daka Fal. An Orlanth worshipper doesn't have to be an Orlanthi. Other people / races can win the cult. A troll from Dagori Inkarth can join the cult of Orlanth, but that doesn't make them an Orlanthi. I think there maybe a bit of language confusion with this (with the addition of the i) as this is not the first time I've come across this.

You see this come up a bit in discussions on Lunars vs. Orlanthi. Most "Lunars" in Dragon Pass, except troops brought in from the Heartland, are religiously Lunar, but are still culturally Orlanthi, as it were. They live in clan-based societies, they form tribal coalitions, they maintain their collective homesteads and property management, they might not initiate to Orlanth anymore, but as far as I know they still initiate to mark crossing over to adulthood, they still speak Theyalan languages, and so forth. 

There are probably some who've given up on some cultural practices here and there, but overall that's the image I'm getting.

Apologies if I've gotten something wrong. 

EDIT: Isn't Daka Fal the Praxian name? Wouldn't Heortling Orlanthi refer to him as Darhudan? Or have I misunderstood this? I'm guessing some people might know both names, or that players use Daka Fal since that is the name used in the most widespread cult write-up/publication. Or maybe they ARE different entities, I don't know.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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26 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Isn't Daka Fal the Praxian name? Wouldn't Heortling Orlanthi refer to him as Darhudan? Or have I misunderstood this? I'm guessing some people might know both names, or that players use Daka Fal since that is the name used in the most widespread cult write-up/publication. Or maybe they ARE different entities, I don't know.

They are the same. The Praxians and Orlanthi were effectively the same culture up to the Second Age (until Waha came to power and Orlanth wained a bit). In the upcoming Cults book he's Daka Fal, but there's a reference to Darhudan's bench where he sits. One of those names is likely the God learner name. In my Praxian games, everyone calls him Boneman...

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41 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Pourquoi les américains ont choisi l'anglais plutôt que le français comme langue des US, le monde serait meilleur autrement...

 

I am not sure that the world would be better, but it should be more understandable for us poor french people! :)

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4 hours ago, Pheres said:

I have a Daka Fal shaman who leave in Sartar. He want to improve his social status. But in Sartar you are not great if you are not an Orlanthi, and he can not join Orlanth cult because Orlanth cult is not an ancestors cult associated to Daka Fal cult... He don't want to become an illuminate, because he is freighten by illumination and think it's chaos related.

But he has an idea: why not heroquesting in order to turn Orlanth cult into an ancestor worshiping cult associated to Daka Fal?

Sounds like a great idea to me.

Daka Fal is, as David Scott says, hostile to Orlanth, but Orlanth is neutral to Daka Fal. Getting Orlanthi to worship their Ancestors instead of having them as a nebulous group of spirits isn't a great leap. Hero-Worship of an Ancestor is possible, many Orlanthi claim descent from Heort, for example. Accessing a clan founder should be OK as well. Ancestor worship is similar to that, but not quite the same.

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6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Pourquoi les américains ont choisi l'anglais plutôt que le français comme langue des US, le monde serait meilleur autrement...

 

C’est possible, mais comme mes amis japonais peux dire, honto, kureijī!

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... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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According to all your replies, and several others i have read in other topics i can say that what i really like in Glorantha is YGWV, because everything is subject to imagination of all players over the table, and we can really make a new world based on a ton of old stories!

But starting to understand this universe take a long time...

Edit: About the time it takes to understand Glorantha, i can see that Chaosium is making a great job in order to simplify the understanding, and it's great!

 

Edited by Pheres
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So..  is there a significant difference between Theyalan (as a culture) and Orlanthi? (Such that the former can't be used or n place of the latter)

I sort of like @pheres idea, but surprised there isn't already an ancestor worship cult/variant already associated (or friendly) to Orlanth...

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1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

So..  is there a significant difference between Theyalan (as a culture) and Orlanthi? (Such that the former can't be used or n place of the latter)

I sort of like @pheres idea, but surprised there isn't already an ancestor worship cult/variant already associated (or friendly) to Orlanth...

I would guess there isn't _one_ but many.  Many Clans will maintain a shrine to their ancestors and quite likely a spirit cult will have formed around a particular Ancestral Hero or local river or mountain or whatever. So lots of little spirit cults scattered around. 

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I think that rather than heroquesting to change the entire Orlanth cult (quite difficult, because it’s a huge religion, and somewhat resistant to outsiders trying to change it), why not heroquest to change the mind of your ancestors, which should be a lot more doable, and convince them that Orlanth is cool? 
And it’s a lot easier to manage - summon up an important ancestor with sufficient authority, and ask them what would need to happen to be convinced. 

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1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

is there a significant difference between Theyalan (as a culture) and Orlanthi? (Such that the former can't be used or n place of the latter)

Theyalan generally references the Dawn Age cultures associated with the Lightbringers (where Theya = Dawn).  It spread out from the Holy Country as missionaries went to preach the word of the Great Compromise, etc. It can also refer to those cultures where the variants of the Theyalan languages are spoken (concentrated in the Holy Country, Dragon Pass, and southern Peloria).

Orlanthi generally references those cultures who held onto Storm worship across what might be perceived as the barbarian belt running from Dragon Pass all the way to Charg and into Fronela, as well as into Maniria and Ralios.

There's a lot of overlap. 

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

sort of like @pheres idea, but surprised there isn't already an ancestor worship cult/variant already associated (or friendly) to Orlanth...

Of course there is already ancestor worship associated to Orlanth.  These are local hero cults as well as the common cult spirits.

And Daka Fal is part of the Orlanth pantheon of deities. But his worship is more shamanistic (so more outside the control of the Orlanth priests) and associated with the dead.  Perhaps you can think of more like Hades position within the Greek pantheon - Zeus' brother, but not a figure that most commonly worship.

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43 minutes ago, davecake said:

I think that rather than heroquesting to change the entire Orlanth cult (quite difficult, because it’s a huge religion, and somewhat resistant to outsiders trying to change it), why not heroquest to change the mind of your ancestors, which should be a lot more doable, and convince them that Orlanth is cool? 

yeah there was a nearly world-ending event where people tried to do this, to this day "loko" is a slur for a Chaos-infested delusional madman

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7 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

yeah there was a nearly world-ending event where people tried to do this

There are two at least - the EWF began by changing the Orlanth cult as well.

Except there is a third change - in that Alakoring also changed, well, at least the rites of about half the Orlanthi, to counter the EWF, and his changes succeeded. And that’s why we have the Orlanth Rex cult, and the chiefs get to boss the priests around. 
So it can be done, it’s just really really hard, and runs the chance of kicking off a continent sized war. 

Much easier to work the other side. The Daka Fal cult doesn’t really have coherent existence as a cult, in that they don’t care a lot about the activities of other branches of the cult - the cult is more like many largely independent family traditions. If the local ancestors and the family high priest can be convinced that their family is ok with Orlanth worship, easy. 
 

And to be honest, the Orlanth cult has no issue with ancestor worship per se - they just see no point in making a big deal of it separate to the clan rites. So if a bunch of Daka Fal from the same bloodline wanted to be initiated Orlanth, I don’t think that would be a huge problem. 

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11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Of course there is already ancestor worship associated to Orlanth.  These are local hero cults as well as the common cult spirits.

And Daka Fal is part of the Orlanth pantheon of deities. But his worship is more shamanistic (so more outside the control of the Orlanth priests) and associated with the dead.  Perhaps you can think of more like Hades position within the Greek pantheon - Zeus' brother, but not a figure that most commonly worship.

Apologies, and let me rephrase...

I do definitely mean a shamanistic tradition of ancestor worship, such as that practised by Daka Fal. Not just the worship (and maybe a little bit of magic) of a single hero... But the ability to summon, chat with, have as a Spirit Guardian or teacher your great great great grandparents (who's barely mentioned, but had a bit of reverence and respect). Where going to talk with them (ie, Discorporation & Spirit Travel) is taught.

So, Daka Fal without the angst... And with the Association of the the storm pantheon.

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2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I do definitely mean a shamanistic tradition of ancestor worship, such as that practised by Daka Fal. Not just the worship (and maybe a little bit of magic) of a single hero... But the ability to summon, chat with, have as a Spirit Guardian or teacher your great great great grandparents (who's barely mentioned, but had a bit of reverence and respect).

I think the Heortling Orlanthi find it a bit unnecessary (they already have clan rites for the ancestors), and maybe even a little suspicious (are the interests of your bloodline not shared with the clan? Do you want to maintain traditions from before you joined the clan? And what is all this shaman stuff?) but it could certainly be something that is compatible with Orlanthi culture and fully accepted - its not the current way of doing things. 

I definitely think that this is how many cultures in Glorantha operate, that Ancestor Worship is just a fully compatible thing with most other worship.

Kralorela even do it as mostly urban dwellers, and shamans who help mediate with the Ancestors are a recognised profession. Ancestors can worry about stuff like the state of the long running family business, or relationships with other families. 

In the Doraddi lands of Pamaltela, its very common, and there is a bit more to it too because each lineage is associated with a species of plant, so it includes dealing with plant magic a little. Also includes some of the dealing with complex rules about who you can marry. 

 

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Where going to talk with them (ie, Discorporation & Spirit Travel) is taught.

Mostly just meeting them via Axis Mundi at clan gatherings, and then summoning/Incarnating them for more personal meetings, but yeah. 

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2 hours ago, davecake said:

I think the Heortling Orlanthi find it a bit unnecessary (they already have clan rites for the ancestors), and maybe even a little suspicious (are the interests of your bloodline not shared with the clan? Do you want to maintain traditions from before you joined the clan? And what is all this shaman stuff?) but it could certainly be something that is compatible with Orlanthi culture and fully accepted - its not the current way of doing things. 

The Heortlings aren't really that averse to shamans - I think that the King of Dragon Pass game way overstated the weirdness of shamans to an established clan.

For starters, King Heort was a shaman - their entire society was founded by one. It isn't clear what kind of shamanic tradition he followed - could have been the white deer people's shamanism,  Kolating shamanism, or something unrelated. There isn't much known about Heort.

And even on the height of his "three separate worlds" dogma, Greg said that the Heortlings were about two third theist, one third animist in their outlook. All that individual (theist) initiation creating an individual bond to a deity may be part of that, but there are Heortlings who remain primarily animist in their worship, even though they contribute to the communal worship as (theist) lay members.

I am not sure whether the Daka Fal cult counts as somewhat theist in nature. Getting access to all those common Rune spells does suggest that it has a significant theist component.

Hermit individuals who get overwhelmed by the force of prophecy make people uneasy, true. The Oracle of Delphi was kept in seclusion...

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I definitely think that this is how many cultures in Glorantha operate, that Ancestor Worship is just a fully compatible thing with most other worship.

But does all ancestor worship go the Daka Fal / Axis Mundi way, or is there a more theist way of worship with the host of the ancestors as its object? (Like presented in King of Dragon Pass, really.)

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Kralorela even do it as mostly urban dwellers, and shamans who help mediate with the Ancestors are a recognised profession. Ancestors can worry about stuff like the state of the long running family business, or relationships with other families. 

Kralori afterlife is complicated anyway, as there is the waiting place where the faithful dead go to wait for the ascension of the Emperor. Does Kralori ancestor worship reach back to ancstors that departed before the utuma of Yanoor?

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

In the Doraddi lands of Pamaltela, its very common, and there is a bit more to it too because each lineage is associated with a species of plant, so it includes dealing with plant magic a little. Also includes some of the dealing with complex rules about who you can marry. 

That lineage plant system is unclear to me, anyway. Assuming you have a mother from lineage A and a father from lineage B, what will your lineage plant be? A? B? something else?

 

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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3 hours ago, davecake said:

I think the Heortling Orlanthi find it a bit unnecessary (they already have clan rites for the ancestors), and maybe even a little suspicious (are the interests of your bloodline not shared with the clan? Do you want to maintain traditions from before you joined the clan? And what is all this shaman stuff?) but it could certainly be something that is compatible with Orlanthi culture and fully accepted - its not the current way of doing things. 

Well, there have Kolati shamanism, so they don't seem to be against animism in general... (waiting for GaGoG, and hoping to see Associate cult status).

But I'd think that clan/tribe/house(?) wyters may well be ancestors, so having a *stronger* ancestor worship & interaction (ie, shamanism) would make sense to me - someone who can specifically summon those ancestors to chat with and seek advice from... And all the other cool stuff Daka Fal initiates & shamans can do...

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8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, Daka Fal without the angst... And with the Association of the the storm pantheon.

I doubt there is any particular angst beyond what you'd expect. People are uncomfortable around spirits and ghosts - they are dead, after all.  Daka Fal are your "psychic readers", they let you commune with those of the dead you wish to.

And it is part of (i.e. associated with) the Storm pantheon - it's not outside it.  But that doesn't mean the cult will have a shrine in the Orlanth and Ernalda temples, nor will it have magic from them as "associated" cults. But that's not needed to be part of the society.

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On 3/7/2020 at 2:51 AM, Pheres said:

I have a Daka Fal shaman who leave in Sartar. He want to improve his social status. But in Sartar you are not great if you are not an Orlanthi, and he can not join Orlanth cult because Orlanth cult is not an ancestors cult associated to Daka Fal cult... He don't want to become an illuminate, because he is freighten by illumination and think it's chaos related.

But he has an idea: why not heroquesting in order to turn Orlanth cult into an ancestor worshiping cult associated to Daka Fal?

I think that he has a great idea that nonone had before!!!

Oh, i hear someone saying God learners in the back... Ok, i stop trying to frighten all of you and i must admit that i was joking! :)

 

Edit: i apologize, by Orlanthi, and would like to say Orlanth cult members, not the inhabitants of Sartar and other countries who trust in Orlanth pantheon... English is a damned language!

Orlanthi do venerate their ancestors, but likely do so through the vehicle of the Flesh Man, who is a Lightbringer and associated with Daka Fal.  There are likely a good many Orlanthi who would value a Daka Fal shaman to accompany them on their Lightbringer Hero Quests in the Flesh Man role.

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2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I doubt there is any particular angst beyond what you'd expect. People are uncomfortable around spirits and ghosts - they are dead, after all.  Daka Fal are your "psychic readers", they let you commune with those of the dead you wish to.

And it is part of (i.e. associated with) the Storm pantheon - it's not outside it.  But that doesn't mean the cult will have a shrine in the Orlanth and Ernalda temples, nor will it have magic from them as "associated" cults. But that's not needed to be part of the society.

But, the Associated Cult status (note the capital letters) is precisely what I (and the OP) was seeking and arguing for.

Not merely an "acceptable place" in society, but actually allowing the shamans to also initiate into the other cults without the prejudice of "no shamans!" Hopefully, Kolati shamans will be allowed in as well.

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41 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Orlanthi do venerate their ancestors, but likely do so through the vehicle of the Flesh Man, who is a Lightbringer and associated with Daka Fal.  There are likely a good many Orlanthi who would value a Daka Fal shaman to accompany them on their Lightbringer Hero Quests in the Flesh Man role.

It's very interesting is there some informations about the Flesh Man in some RQG products? (I am including the Guide in them)

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