Is it possible

[Sir_Godspeed]

Isn't he sort of a stand-in for mortals in the Lightbringer Quest? A dying one at that?

Edited March 8, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Pheres said:

Flesh Man

The Glorantha Source book says:

Quote

FLESH MAN

Flesh Man was a mortal man who had been driven mad by Death. He had seen Grandfather Mortal die, and then he saw Yelm die, and then he had seen a vision of the death of the whole world. He led the Lightbringers into the Underworld, where he was slain. Death did not end his quest, for he was drawn to the Halls of the Dead. He helped make the Great Compromise, which is why all mortals have both Life and Death.

I believe that Grandfather Mortal and Flesh Man are the same individual who viewed them self at different places in their lives.

Edited March 8, 2020 by David Scott

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But, the Associated Cult status (note the capital letters) is precisely what I (and the OP) was seeking and arguing for.

Not merely an "acceptable place" in society, but actually allowing the shamans to also initiate into the other cults without the prejudice of "no shamans!" Hopefully, Kolati shamans will be allowed in as well.

But, I don't think that makes sense in the Orlanthi society.

There is an inherent difference in the religious practices. Orlanth and Ernalda want worship, and they want that largely channeled through their priesthood, or invoked directly via their "avatars" in the real-world. The shamanic practice does not inherently do this. Not even Kolat, though Kolat will accept the commands of the Storm Voice as Orlanth is King of the Winds. 

The shaman sees Orlanth or Ernalda as great spirits. They may approach them, perhaps even gain magics from them, but this does not bring the gods the power/worship they want, nor will they bargain in the way that the shaman seeks to do.

The HeroQuest Voices piece for the Heortlings sums up the relation with spirits well:

"Great were those who fought Orlanth's gifts, Many were broken or made to be small.

Now the survivors are spirits for bushmen, Kolatings coerce their small magic spells.

Notice and praise those spirits sundered, Some can be helpful, perform useful deeds.

Do not give them worship, keep from them your soulforce, That is for King Orlanth, their conqueror and liege"

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Well, there have Kolati shamanism, so they don't seem to be against animism in general... (waiting for GaGoG, and hoping to see Associate cult status).

Kolat is an associate of the Orlanth cult.

Quote

Kolat provides Orlanth Thunderous with the special Rune spell of Bind Wind 

Kolat's spirit cult is separate and has a few more rune spells, but is effectively the Orlanth Pantheon's shaman path (Earthwitch is the other).. 

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Isn't he sort of a stand-in for mortals in the Lightbringer Quest? A dying one at that?

The working translation for the Swedish edition is "Everyman" (because flesh and meat are the same word in Swedish, and "Meat Man" just wouldn't work).

[Sir_Godspeed]

47 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

The working translation for the Swedish edition is "Everyman" (because flesh and meat are the same word in Swedish, and "Meat Man" just wouldn't work).

Seems apt. (It would be the same in Norwegian too, probably.)

[Darius West]

9 hours ago, Pheres said:

It's very interesting is there some informations about the Flesh Man in some RQG products? (I am including the Guide in them)

In King of Sartar (I seem to recall) it says Flesh man is an open position in the Lightbringer hero quest.  It allows anyone with the man rune to participate, which means basically anyone.  Of course the role is best filled by someone who actually belongs to a man rune cult.  Flesh man serves as a mad visionary who can see the machinations of Eurmal at work during the pursuit phase, before the party capture Eurmal and force him to swear to work for them.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Darius West

[GAZZA]

Is there an actual write up for the Lightbringer's Hero Quest? It seems like one of the more useful ones to do (resurrecting dead comrades - indeed, if you go by 13th Age Glorantha, you can even get Humakti back that way) but I don't think I've ever seen it written up in full.

[Richard S.]

3 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Is there an actual write up for the Lightbringer's Hero Quest? It seems like one of the more useful ones to do (resurrecting dead comrades - indeed, if you go by 13th Age Glorantha, you can even get Humakti back that way) but I don't think I've ever seen it written up in full.

It's useful, yes, but incredibly difficult. If you desperately want to resurrect your comrade, just get them to a healer within a week. The lightbringers quest can grant incredible powers beyond simple resurrection - the gods offered Argrath anything in the world, and the cosmos nearly broke when they could not meet his request. Failure is disastrous, bringing chaos into the world and most likely killing the questers - Kallyr's quest severely injured the entirety of Sartar and ended her reign prematurely. You don't undertake it lightly.

I don't believe there's been any super detailed step-by-step quests but we know the basic stages and obstacles. I believe either the Book of Heortling Mythology or King of Sartar should have a decent outline which you can flesh out. I'd imagine it would be one of the most variable quests, since it takes place during a time of unparalleled chaos and goes across the whole of the world and underworld.

[GAZZA]

4 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

It's useful, yes, but incredibly difficult. If you desperately want to resurrect your comrade, just get them to a healer within a week.

Won't work for Humakti, that's the problem.

(Well, maybe an illuminated Humakti, but I'm not sure even an illuminate can ignore the ban on resurrection, assuming you can find a healer willing to try it).

Of course it's not exactly canonical that Humakti can return from death at all, even with a Lightbringer's Quest. I'm unaware of any solid rulings one way or the other.

I'm not sure anyone undertakes any Hero Quests lightly, but the Lightbringer's Quest is pretty much the ur-Hero Quest, and the fact that we have known about the concept of Hero Questing for decades, across multiple game systems and even mediums, and it's yet to be written up is, well, disappointing.

[Shiningbrow]

22 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

I'm not sure anyone undertakes any Hero Quests lightly, but the Lightbringer's Quest is pretty much the ur-Hero Quest, and the fact that we have known about the concept of Hero Questing for decades, across multiple game systems and even mediums, and it's yet to be written up is, well, disappointing.

That last bit is actually not true. Mongoose (that which is not supposed to be named - but tough!) had quite a long write-up on it. Sure, a lot from God Learner perspective, and not a lot with regards specific myths (as examples). But clearly better than nothing, and certainly sufficient to get a GM to do them up! 

And, fully compatible with RQG.

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, David Scott said:

Kolat is an associate of the Orlanth cult.

Kolat's spirit cult is separate and has a few more rune spells, but is effectively the Orlanth Pantheon's shaman path (Earthwitch is the other).. 

Awesome! I'd read it would be included, and perhaps associated... 

Still doesn't get where I was going though, because that's for Air spirits, not ancestors.

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But, I don't think that makes sense in the Orlanthi society.

There is an inherent difference in the religious practices. Orlanth and Ernalda want worship, and they want that largely channeled through their priesthood, or invoked directly via their "avatars" in the real-world. The shamanic practice does not inherently do this. Not even Kolat, though Kolat will accept the commands of the Storm Voice as Orlanth is King of the Winds. 

The shaman sees Orlanth or Ernalda as great spirits. They may approach them, perhaps even gain magics from them, but this does not bring the gods the power/worship they want, nor will they bargain in the way that the shaman seeks to do.

The HeroQuest Voices piece for the Heortlings sums up the relation with spirits well:

"Great were those who fought Orlanth's gifts, Many were broken or made to be small.

Now the survivors are spirits for bushmen, Kolatings coerce their small magic spells.

Notice and praise those spirits sundered, Some can be helpful, perform useful deeds.

Do not give them worship, keep from them your soulforce, That is for King Orlanth, their conqueror and liege"

I see this differently (as for, BTW, many past - and present?? - real world cultures).

In such a culture as DP Orlanthi, certainly the gods are recognised as such. They are worshipped.

But access to ancestor spirits still happens through some medium (almost going for the pun, but I'll leave it 😛 ). That medium is obviously a medium... Probably a well-done one with many years experience... aka a shaman.

I see Orlanthi shamans as worshipping Orlanth as a God, but has the skills to travel to the spirit world and deal directly with the ancestors (and other spirits, primarily Air). And (perhaps most important for this discussion), honouring, respecting, even revering those ancestors, but not actually worshippin, per se.

Priests deal with gods. Shamans talk to the spirits.

[GAZZA]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

That last bit is actually not true. Mongoose (that which is not supposed to be named - but tough!) had quite a long write-up on it. Sure, a lot from God Learner perspective, and not a lot with regards specific myths (as examples). But clearly better than nothing, and certainly sufficient to get a GM to do them up! 

And, fully compatible with RQG.

Ah, nice to see it's been written up somewhere at least. Unfortunately I don't have (and don't plan to get) any Mongoose stuff, but good on them for the effort.

[Sir_Godspeed]

There is a reasonably detailed play-by-play in the Book of Heortling Mythology as well. It also has short summaries of the quest from the perspectives of the different lightbringers. 

EDIT: Something I've never liked when the Lightbringer Quest is applied in the lore is that it's too often just used as a "resurrection ritual", when in fact its function and theme is far, far beyond that. It's a story of repentance and reconciliation to reestablish the order of the cosmos, perhaps first and foremost. That never really gets much emphasis, and instead it's more "bring back the dead lol" whenever mentioned.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Ah, nice to see it's been written up somewhere at least. Unfortunately I don't have (and don't plan to get) any Mongoose stuff, but good on them for the effort.

That's too bad.

MRQI had the issues that gave it the bad reputation.

But II was  written by a couple of guys who care about the world and the system (the Design Mechanism and RQ6 guys). They've got a few pages dedicated to HQs... 

MRQI has a 25+ page chapter on HQs alone, including sample cult HQs. Even if you've totally hated them for what they did to the rest of RQ & Glorantha, that section alone is worth a look (until it eventually appears written up by Chaosium). As they say - something is better than nothing! 

 

(Of course, there are HQ rules on the net as well...)

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But access to ancestor spirits still happens through some medium (almost going for the pun, but I'll leave it 😛 ). That medium is obviously a medium... Probably a well-done one with many years experience... aka a shaman.

I don't see a particular need for that.  If your ancestors were good followers of Orlanth, they went to Orlanth's Hall after they died.  They are now cult spirits and continue to serve Orlanth after death.  Therefore, a priest can summon them using Summon Cult Spirit.  Same for followers of Ernalda who went to her Loom House and are now cult spirits of Ernalda. And the ancestors come during the holy days too when the mundane and Otherworld come together since you're now at Storm Home or the Loom House too.

It's only those who fall outside of Orlanth and Ernalda (or who failed their gods and went to some other place in the Underworld) who need a shaman, perhaps, to summon them back (except for Humakti of course).

[David Scott]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Still doesn't get where I was going though, because that's for Air spirits, not ancestors.

Orlanthi worship their ancestors in their main worship ceremonies, but not like Daka Fal does. Ancestors will get a few mps from these ceremonies so they are not forgotten. The Orlanth and Ernalda pantheon acknowledge their ancestors, within the Pantheon, Daka Fal is more ancestor focused. It's just a different relationship. Most will be content with the former and a few the latter. The latter find a shaman. There's nothing to stop a Sartarite shaman being a member of Kolat's spirit cult and Daka Fal. In fact it gives credibility to the shaman. Orlanthi ancestors are also venerated in hero cults... Heort, Sartar & Vingot for example. There's also nothing to stop an Orlanthi worshipper joining Kolat's spirit cult.

Overall, I don't think there are any clear divisions between ancestor worship, Daka Fal, Orlanth and Kolat. The RQ game system seems to precipitate the idea that there is as it's rules heavy, but culturally it's a mashup.

Have a look at Heortling Mythology. There's plenty about ancestors in there. Most will be like hero cults - but with no RQ benefits, entirely setting colour.

[Joerg]

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I don't see a particular need for that.  If your ancestors were good followers of Orlanth, they went to Orlanth's Hall after they died.  They are now cult spirits and continue to serve Orlanth after death.  Therefore, a priest can summon them using Summon Cult Spirit.  Same for followers of Ernalda who went to her Loom House and are now cult spirits of Ernalda. And the ancestors come during the holy days too when the mundane and Otherworld come together since you're now at Storm Home or the Loom House too.

It's only those who fall outside of Orlanth and Ernalda (or who failed their gods and went to some other place in the Underworld) who need a shaman, perhaps, to summon them back (except for Humakti of course).

There is a difference between the rather anonymous cult spirits serving Orlanth (the storm souls or breaths of the former Orlanth initiates, actually) and the individual spirits you call up in a Daka Fal rite, spirits (without their storm souls) retaining most of their former identity and memories. And I tend to think that it is possible to summon both at the same time (though through different means). (Ernaldans would summon the Earth soul, etc.)

I wonder about the re-sheathed Humakti. While manifesting outside the realm of the dead probably is a great no-no, communicating with them while in the halls of Humakt's Einheriar might be possible.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Well, Esrolia certainly has some fairly noteable ancestors still hanging around. Not only the ones from Necropolis and the Antones Estate, who I guess might be a bit de-individualized, but the ones at Kena Hill. 

Esrolians might overall be more open to communing with individual ancestors, so maybe an Earthwitch/Ernalda angle is easier than a Kolat/Orlanth angle or whatever. 

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Not only the ones from Necropolis and the Antones Estate, who I guess might be a bit de-individualized

The entourage might be less defined, but plenty of those folk are going to be very "recognizable" (not to mention demanding!). No escape from your Grandmother, your Great-Grandmother, etc.!  At least not during the day/week when they come back into the city to visit, feast, and ensure you're doing what you should be doing.

[GAZZA]

14 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

That's too bad.

MRQI had the issues that gave it the bad reputation.

But II was  written by a couple of guys who care about the world and the system (the Design Mechanism and RQ6 guys). They've got a few pages dedicated to HQs... 

MRQI has a 25+ page chapter on HQs alone, including sample cult HQs. Even if you've totally hated them for what they did to the rest of RQ & Glorantha, that section alone is worth a look (until it eventually appears written up by Chaosium). As they say - something is better than nothing! 

I don't hate them at all, I just don't have any use for yet another RPG that I'll never actually run.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

I don't hate them at all, I just don't have any use for yet another RPG that I'll never actually run.

Sorry, it was a more generic "you" than personal (although, not entirely). I'm sure you're aware of the attitudes of many that have been expressed.

There are some good ideas for HQ rewards as well, and not just in the HQ section. I hope the upcoming Chaosium version does (at least) as good a - or even better - job of this.

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

Orlanthi worship their ancestors in their main worship ceremonies, but not like Daka Fal does. Ancestors will get a few mps from these ceremonies so they are not forgotten. The Orlanth and Ernalda pantheon acknowledge their ancestors, within the Pantheon, Daka Fal is more ancestor focused. It's just a different relationship. Most will be content with the former and a few the latter. The latter find a shaman. There's nothing to stop a Sartarite shaman being a member of Kolat's spirit cult and Daka Fal. In fact it gives credibility to the shaman. Orlanthi ancestors are also venerated in hero cults... Heort, Sartar & Vingot for example. There's also nothing to stop an Orlanthi worshipper joining Kolat's spirit cult.

Overall, I don't think there are any clear divisions between ancestor worship, Daka Fal, Orlanth and Kolat. The RQ game system seems to precipitate the idea that there is as it's rules heavy, but culturally it's a mashup.

Have a look at Heortling Mythology. There's plenty about ancestors in there. Most will be like hero cults - but with no RQ benefits, entirely setting colour.

 

 

 

Your first argument seems to be either/or... Either you stick with Orlanth and the way they handle ancestors, or you go to Daka Fal... I'm looking for both as an option (because Daka Fal won't let Orlanthi (initiates) join.

Your second argument is that Kolati is an ancestor worship/dealing cult... I don't get that impression. I don't think they get the same array of ancestor chatting spells that DF get... Summon Ancestor and related.

15 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I don't see a particular need for that.  If your ancestors were good followers of Orlanth, they went to Orlanth's Hall after they died.  They are now cult spirits and continue to serve Orlanth after death.  Therefore, a priest can summon them using Summon Cult Spirit.  Same for followers of Ernalda who went to her Loom House and are now cult spirits of Ernalda. And the ancestors come during the holy days too when the mundane and Otherworld come together since you're now at Storm Home or the Loom House too.

It's only those who fall outside of Orlanth and Ernalda (or who failed their gods and went to some other place in the Underworld) who need a shaman, perhaps, to summon them back (except for Humakti of course).

 

As per @Joerg's response, I've not seen the idea of ancestors specifically becoming cult spirits, whilst retaining their former identify (within Orlanth). Or at least, if you summon an Orlanth cult spirit, you can't ask for a specific person.

 

I know it's fiction, but the Seer in Vikings was clearly a shaman, and was an important part of the culture and community. He worshipped the gods. He also seemed to be fully aware of the ancestors.

There are "shamans" around the world now that also pray to Jesus and the Christian god. (Although, usually, those outside the shaman's community may not accept it).

[davecake]

49 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Your second argument is that Kolati is an ancestor worship/dealing cult... I don't get that impression.

I don’t think they are at all. The Kolat tradition deals with a lot more than just the Umbroli/Air spirits, there are many spirit cults they regularly deal with, but ancestors appears to not be their thing.