eurmali bonded to orlanthi protector

[French Desperate WindChild]

Hello all

I am exploring how to play an eurmali and I would like to know the range of possibility of interactions with the orlanthi protector

Yes the eurmali is a trickster but in the stories I read a lot of "stronger" things happen and I don't know if it is  a one off event, a standard event or a fate impossible to avoid (except as usual illumination, heroquest, blablabla) for all eurmal follower

So some points, for each I know (believe ?! ) that of course they can, they are eurmal, but must they ?

• must they betray their "master"  ? (a big betrayal, like lightbringer quest)
• must they betray their community ? (like death bringing, desacralizing a temple, ...)
• must they hurt physically a friend ? (or someone from the community)
• must they use joke to hurt socially, or moraly a friend / someone from the community
• must they disobey their master ?
• must they be selfish ?

or other "bad" thing.

For example can a jester be a good person, never hurting anyone with his word (except by accident - or fate ?) , always accomplice with his friend-master, helping people in need, working hard, etc... and be a good eurmali. I believe "not"

 

 

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I am exploring how to play an eurmali and I would like to know the range of possibility of interactions with the orlanthi protector

Yes the eurmali is a trickster but in the stories I read a lot of "stronger" things happen and I don't know if it is  a one off event, a standard event or a fate impossible to avoid (except as usual illumination, heroquest, blablabla) for all eurmal follower

So some points, for each I know (believe ?! ) that of course they can, they are eurmal, but must they ?

The thing about Eurmali is that they are not all the same. Some will behave one way and some another.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

must they betray their "master"  ? (a big betrayal, like lightbringer quest)

At some points, yes, for example they must betray the Lightbringers on the Lightbringers Quest.

However, do all Eurmali betray their masters? No, I don't think so. Can they? Yes, of course, and that might even be expected of them.

Some Eurmali don't betray their masters to go against the tradition that they should.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

must they betray their community ? (like death bringing, desacralizing a temple, ...)

Not necessarily, but they often do. They are not bound to their community, so why not betray them? 

It really depends on how they are treated by their community and also on how strong their tie is to the Disorder Rune. They might have Passions that almost force them to betray their community.

Do practical jokes count? Giving the whole village a strong laxative would be an Eurmali thing to do, it is a betrayal of the community but not a very big one.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

must they hurt physically a friend ? (or someone from the community)

No, but there is nothing to stop them doing so. Glorantha has healing spells, so hurting someone is only temporary.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

must they use joke to hurt socially, or moraly a friend / someone from the community

No, but why wouldn't they? One of their weapons is their tongues, so why not use that? Betrayal is part of an Eurmali's being, but that comes in many guises. Making love to a friend's spouse, backing a gang of bullies who are assaulting a friend, standing by when a friend is being shouted at, all are forms of betrayal that an Eurmali could do.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

must they disobey their master ?

Almost certainly, but only up to a point.

"Don't peek at my wife while she is bathing" might be a command that an Eurmali disobeys on a regular basis, whereas "Don't kill my friends" might be something that the Eurmali saves up for special occasions.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

must they be selfish ?

Maybe, most Eurmali are selfish but some might not be. not being selfish because Eurmali are expected to be selfish is a perfectly valid stance for an Eurmali.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

For example can a jester be a good person, never hurting anyone with his word (except by accident - or fate ?) , always accomplice with his friend-master, helping people in need, working hard, etc... and be a good eurmali. I believe "not"

Yes, of course they could. Eurmal has many Aspects, Trickster, Thief, Firebringer, Illusionist, Murderer, Seducer, Liar, Clown and so on. Someone could concentrate on the Clown Aspect and be a Jester without wanting to be a Thief or Murderer.

If we are talking about the entire breadth of Eurmal, then a good Eurmali would tell lies, seduce people, steal things and kill people, but not all Eurmali embrace the whole of Eurmal.

[EricW]

I don't think there is any need to follow a rigid set of rule if you are a trickster! Eurmal worshippers get into plenty of trouble, and draw plenty of money down on the party, just by being themselves - and by abusing all that interesting magic their god provides.

For example, an Eurmali would never consider working hard to earn money, they'd rob someone, or defraud some passing lunar, perhaps using trickster's fabulous lie spell. What happens next? Does the victim notice this scruffy nobody suddenly has a lot of money? What happens when the fabulous magic crystal turns out to be a lump of riverstone? Will the party help their friend, when the lunar guards come to arrest them? How about if the trickster suddenly turns cornered rat brave, and abruptly kills a couple of lunars using trickster's strike spell. Now the party is really in trouble. 

Makes you wonder why someone would want a trickster in their party - except they're also fabulously useful, because they've got access to lie spells, strike spells, and other interesting magic.

[Minlister]

I would say that the main question should not be "can/should they do this or that?" but "why?" I envision the trickster, ultimately, as a source of wisdom for the community, someone who shed light on the limits, inherent paradox and/or hypocrisy of commonly accepted values and behavior. So what a trickster should do or should not do should be determined by this intent. Kill your Orlanti master to show him the limits of violence, trick the Ernaldan in a lose/lose situation to confront her with the fact that sometimes there is no other way, betray your master to save the community and let them decide if you deserve punishment, trap your friend between conflicting loyalties to confront them with the necessity to decide who they really are, etc. 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Minlister

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, Minlister said:

I would say that the main question should not be "can/should they do this or that?" but "why?"

Because it's funny.

Because I can.

Because nobody said I shouldn't.

Because you didn't really mean it when you said I couldn't, you were joking, weren't you?

[Sir_Godspeed]

Because f**** you.

[davecake]

A trickster who does what he is asked, and always tries to help the community and make it harmonious, is likely one that is weak in the Disorder rune, and so not as powerful Trickster. They still get Illusion magic, though, so they can be a pretty good Jester. 
 

Tricksters that try to help their community can still create trouble for it. Committing frauds that the clan profits from, diverting trouble to others, covering up misdeeds that become much worse problems if they come out. Or doing weird and inconvenient things that they are sure are important, but may be deluded (or not!) - sometimes they are the Gloranthan equivalent of conspiracy theorists. It is in the nature of Trickster that even when they try to help, they often don’t.

[Joerg]

A trickster that behaves is planning something. The longer he behaves, the worse his trick will be.

(It takes an illuminated Trickster to recognize that being lazy and good will drive his bond master crazy.)

[davecake]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

(It takes an illuminated Trickster to recognize that being lazy and good will drive his bond master crazy.)

No, some Tricksters are very smart, and some have a keen feel for psychological manipulation, and the long con. Messing with peoples heads is second nature. 

No, it just takes an Illuminated Trickster to keep up being good for any protracted period of time without giving in to temptation, even when it's part of their plan. The urge to act out is too strong. But plenty of them try to be good, it is the Trickster nature that they fail. 

(as an aside, I don't think we need special rules for Tricksters, either - most of them have very high Disorder Runes (and Hate(Authority) passion in RQG), and long term planning and good behaviour is in conflict with that for Tricksters, and their high Illusion usually means they are habitual liars too) 

[Minlister]

That's a very interesting topic for me as I realize I have a quite different take on tricksters than nearly everybody else! I really struggle with the idea of short-sighted trickster acting in a completely random way; probably because I don't see disorder as synonym to purposeless since the rune is not a form rune but a power rune, which I envision as fueling dynamics of evolution. One more thing I should add to the How you Glorantha varies? thread (another very good one!)!

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Minlister said:

disorder as synonym to purposeless

It's not.  Disorder is a synonym for anything self-centered:  greed, gluttony, sloth, taking something to excess, the desire to steal something, as well delight in breaking things.

[Minlister]

@jajagappaThanks! I understand better ; I guess here it was my own philosophy that kicked in as I tend to consider purposeless anything self-centered.

As a side effect, Harmony should also seen as opposed to self-centered endeavors then? So a hermit, for instance, seeking harmony in isolation for society would be at odds with the values covered by the Harmony rune? I have nothing against it, I ask out of sheer curiosity for your opinion.

[dumuzid]

Other useful examples might be other Disorderly gods.

Shargash and Zorak Zoran are both Disorderly, and serve fairly similar roles in their pantheons.  They're about death and destruction as much for its own sake as any other reason, and left unchecked they tend to create places no one sane wants to live.  When they're kept in check by the community though, as when Shargash was still firmly on Yelm's leash as the Solar Empire's chief enforcer, the destruction they take such joy in can be turned to at least mostly productive ends.

[Minlister]

@dumuzid I confess that I envision tricksters as less nihilistic that these deities, who have both the Death rune I think (although I realize I don"t know the exact runes of shargash!) 

[dumuzid]

Could be subject to change with the forthcoming cults book, but the Guide gives Shargash's runes as Disorder, Fire and Death.  Zorak Zoran's, per the RQ:G Bestiary, are Darkness, Death and Disorder.  Compared to Eurmal's Disorder, Illusion and Movement, they both are a fair bit more nihilistic than Eurmal.  But I'd say that difference goes two ways: Eurmal wasn't the guy to actually wield death, but he stole it again and again and gave it to others.  He enjoys transgression, and fooling people, and never sticks around to really deal with the aftermath if he can avoid it.  I think what the transgression results in: a bucket of water tipping onto an over-proud swordthane's head as they enter a room, a merchant overcharging the tula exposed as a fraud, or a cherished hero murdered via practical joke, is less important to Eurmal than the trickery that went into the deed.  Granted, using ZZ or Shargash in his jokes always resulted in pretty spectacular outcomes for Eurmal, like getting Flamal killed in the Darkness.

[Minlister]

@dumuzid

Quote

I think what the transgression results (...) is less important to Eurmal than the trickery that went into the deed. 

I understand, but this is the point where I would diverge, I see the transgression not as an end in itself but as the trigger for change (hence the Movement rune) since the trickery undermines the authority of tradition. The Disorder stands in the fact that there is no pre-determined and steady direction to the change the trickster calls for. I am not sure I am very clear, sorry!

Edited March 8, 2020 by Minlister

[dumuzid]

No, that's an entirely valid interpretation.  Remember that there's nothing like a unified Eurmal priesthood, every shrine is its own Trickster shrine with its own set of stories (and related spread of magic) and its own particular idea about what being a 'trickster' means in the world.  As long as you're tricking people somehow, a 'wrong way to be a Eurmali' is sort of a fake idea!

[French Desperate WindChild]

I forgot the disorder rune impact

that's a good point, thanks.

But what happens with an eurmali with a 50% or 25% disorder rune ?

I mean we can have an humorist who gives fun during fest, etc... My question is more centered on Eurmal cult impact (link with the god, not others cultists) than what the runes could drive.

From a drama perspective , not dice rolls

3 hours ago, dumuzid said:

No, that's an entirely valid interpretation.  Remember that there's nothing like a unified Eurmal priesthood, every shrine is its own Trickster shrine with its own set of stories (and related spread of magic) and its own particular idea about what being a 'trickster' means in the world.  As long as you're tricking people somehow, a 'wrong way to be a Eurmali' is sort of a fake idea!

I fully agree with the no unified priesthood

Will Eurmal (the god) punish his follower if he the only trick he does is nice joke  ?

 your eurmaly may vary. But are there limits ?

i mean, if I vary my glorantha by putting space marines in prax, I believe a lot of you will say I m no more in glorantha, to far (and it will be fair from my opinion)

In any story, games, ... a vampire characteristic is the desire of blood (depending the story your vampire would fight again her desire or not but that is a characteristic)

Is there such characteristic for eurmali, because they just embrace Eurmal cult (whatever the runes) ?

 

[jajagappa]

50 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But what happens with an eurmali with a 50% or 25% disorder rune ?

Given Eurmal's runes are Disorder and Illusion, that implies Illusion as the primary rune (possibly with Harmony at 50% or 75%). 

Illusion could be played in a number of different ways.  With a high Harmony, they are likely an entertainer (or possibly a thief who likes to even out, i.e. harmonize, the social order). It's all about the appearance, or illusion, of things. Story is more important than reality, the cunning lie over the boring truth. 

As their Disorder rises, the Illusion-oriented Eurmali might display varied tendencies. Perhaps they are the lazy person who appears to do more than they actually do (gets others to do things for them). Perhaps they are the drug-addicted soul or the quiet drunk - finding a way out of the harsh realities of life and into a pleasant place in their own mind.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Minlister said:

So a hermit, for instance, seeking harmony in isolation for society would be at odds with the values covered by the Harmony rune?

A hermit can find Harmony with nature or the world or the spirits that is divorced from society. 

[davecake]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But what happens with an eurmali with a 50% or 25% disorder rune ?

They reject half their gods nature and power. Like an Orlanthi strong in the Stasis Rune, or Ernaldan strong in the Death Rune. And even though Trickster has no hierarchy to punish them, it’s likely to come crashing down on them. But there is no spirit of retribution or anything, so it may be nothing worse than the things that normally happen to Tricksters. 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

But there is no spirit of retribution or anything, so it may be nothing worse than the things that normally happen to Tricksters

Or perhaps their naturally "harmonious" nature draws Disorder to the community around them.  They are perfectly happy, love their community, and yet... bad things happen. And when bad things happen, the community needs a scapegoat.  Now who's that going to be??? 

[Richard S.]

If they're strong in harmony then I doubt they'd be drawn to Eurmal in the first place. Donadar is the choice for harmonious illusionists already. A strong Harmony affinity in a trickster would have to be something that emerged during play imo.

[EricW]

22 hours ago, Richard S. said:

If they're strong in harmony then I doubt they'd be drawn to Eurmal in the first place. Donadar is the choice for harmonious illusionists already. A strong Harmony affinity in a trickster would have to be something that emerged during play imo.

Not true, my personal contribution to trickster lore is Eurmal’s harmony.

When cast, everyone in the meeting talks over everyone else and eventually leaves happy, utterly convinced all the other participants are in complete agreement with whatever they said.

There is no rune the trickster cannot mock ;-).

[g33k]

22 hours ago, Richard S. said:

If they're strong in harmony then I doubt they'd be drawn to Eurmal in the first place. Donadar is the choice for harmonious illusionists already. A strong Harmony affinity in a trickster would have to be something that emerged during play imo.

This, I think.

It also gives me an idea, variant of the above...  I envision this "jester" type joking/mocking entertainer.  Decidedly prankster-ish.  Strong passion in "Loves to Mock Authority."  Very strong (80%+) Illusion rune, maybe 65%-70% Disorder.  Everybody's pretty sure he's a Eurmali, but nobody can PROVE it.  He often hangs around any known Eurmali.  Celebrates Donandar's holy days very ostentatiously, but -- somehow -- nobody can find him on Eurmal's.

He's pure Donandar...  he just likes people to be nervous around him... especially authority figures.  He also has strong passion in Loyalty (Home Village / Stead / whatever) and/or Love(Family) and/or similar.  He can't really get along with them (rather to his sorrow (damn that strong Disorder rune!)); but he adores the s--t out of every one of them, and tries to make their lives better... however he can...

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by g33k