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The Six new Goddesses


Martin

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Does anyone have any guesses or speculations on  the names of these six goddesses?

I see one of them is Aran Deruila (God Forget) but  what about the other 5?

 Esrolia- The Land of 10 000 Godesses tells us:

"Belintar went into the Barren Womb, prayed alone and  in silence. After he came out there were six new goddesses standing outside. This six were the goddesses18 of the Sixths of Kethaela, each of which reinforced the connection of their lands to Ezel and to Belintar. The goddess of the Sixth of Esrolia was a new daughter of the Ernalda (or sometimes Esrola) that nobody had ever seen before, but she escorted Belintar to the Palace of the Universal Queen."

 

 

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13 hours ago, Martin said:

Does anyone have any guesses or speculations on  the names of these six goddesses?

No particular thoughts. Clearly these tie to whatever the mythic period is that Belintar draws from.  Perhaps this is the period when Faralinthor and Esrola lay as lovers and gave birth to six daughters that represent the Sixths? But as for the names... Perhaps it would be easier to create/use titles for them?  Maybe Left Arm and Right Arm date from this period.  The Table of Shadows.  The Cloud Table.  The Heated Woods.  The Wide Grasses. 

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On 3/12/2020 at 9:36 AM, Martin said:

Does anyone have any guesses or speculations on  the names of these six goddesses?

What are the Sixths called? Land Goddesses generally share names with their lands, so the 6 Goddesses might share names with the Sixths.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

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2 hours ago, soltakss said:

What are the Sixths called? Land Goddesses generally share names with their lands, so the 6 Goddesses might share names with the Sixths.

It was always my impression that they were fairly literal names (Esrolia, Heortland, etc.), but maybe the Sixths have some new, administrative-ritual names that are actually the names of these new goddesses. 

I'm guessing Ketha is thoroughly supplanted by either Esrola or Ernalda post-Dawn Age, and relegated to a grain goddess or a byname for Esrola or Ernalda, so isn't relevant anymore.

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It was always my impression that they were fairly literal names (Esrolia, Heortland, etc.), but maybe the Sixths have some new, administrative-ritual names that are actually the names of these new goddesses. 

Heortland is not the regional name for the Storm Sixth. It was named such when the Dragonkill apparently left only this little corner as the land of the Heortlings. Originally, Heortland would have been the land of the Heortling Dawn Survior tribes.

Shadow Plateau, which used to be Veskarthan's mountain (and subsequently stump, with Akez Loradak on top) and the lands northeast of it (now Lead Hills, Dammed Marsh) aren't really a place for a land goddess.

It seems to me that Belintar created six wyters for his administrative units,  not for the lands involved (which would have had their local minor earth goddesses since practically forever).

We know that the mundane Holy Country is only one aspect of his realm - the magical place in the hero planes where the Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death is the other aspect. Is it possible that these goddesses were the entities of that magical place somehow manifested visible to the mundane world?

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52 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Heortland is not the regional name for the Storm Sixth. It was named such when the Dragonkill apparently left only this little corner as the land of the Heortlings. Originally, Heortland would have been the land of the Heortling Dawn Survior tribes.

 

Since Belintar instituted the Sixth long after the Dragonkill, I don't see how any of this contradicts that the Storm Sixth might commonly or officially be called Heortland. 

I mean, Sweden takes its name from only one of the petty kingdoms of pre-consolidation of the modern state, but that's not really relevant to when the EU admitted the country as "the kingdom of Sweden" in modern times. 

I know it's not a perfect analogy, but my point is that the Storm Sixth is almost universally referred to as Heortland in all third age published material, and it seems likely that this is true in-universe as well. Whether the name has a metonymic etymology is neither here nor there. 

At least we know it's not Hendrikiland. 

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9 hours ago, soltakss said:

What are the Sixths called? Land Goddesses generally share names with their lands, so the 6 Goddesses might share names with the Sixths.

But supposedly these 6 goddesses were only revealed AFTER Belintar's rituals, so long after the places had common names.  

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

It seems to me that Belintar created six wyters for his administrative units,  not for the lands involved (which would have had their local minor earth goddesses since practically forever).

I think this makes sense. Therefore not "land" goddesses, but "new" goddesses of Belintar's Sixths.

And quite possible that only Belintar and his governors actually know the names and commune with them. But, they may well survive Belintar's demise and still function at his temples at the ends of the magical roads.

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4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I don't see how any of this contradicts that the Storm Sixth might commonly or officially be called Heortland.

We know the regional names, and yes the Storm Sixth is Heortland. The question was about the names of the "new" goddesses who appeared after Belintar created his new temple at Ezel.

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18 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

We know the regional names, and yes the Storm Sixth is Heortland. The question was about the names of the "new" goddesses who appeared after Belintar created his new temple at Ezel.

I know, but I was discussing with Joerg. Anyway, we agree, so there's no point in going on. 

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Part of the concept of Belintar's Holy Country is that the six very different major populations and the minor mixed populations all share a collective and ancient land goddess, Kethaa, after whom the land has been known as Kethaela since the Great Flood, and possibly earlier. There are plenty of more localized land goddesses - look at Esrolia, which has Delea, Delaina and probably others like the wives of the rivers (the river valleys). Esrola more or less inherited her fertility role in many of the myths, to the point where one of the two is an aspect of the other.

The Right and Left Arms are naturally divided into separate islands. The rivers divide Esrolia and Heortland into separate parts, in Heortland the elevation comes into play, too. Caladraland is organized around caldera peaks and in valleys. Only the Shadow Plateau is monolithic (literally), although it is vertically separated.

There is no "Heortlandia" or "Right Armia" as local deity. There is a Caladra, but that's a quite different entity. Everything  is part of a manifest Esrola - body parts of her, as manifest by her arms.

To take this to a more productive note, what local goddesses do we know? The lower River valley (nowadays lower Marzeel valley) was presented as Suchara Vale in the Dragon Pass gazetteer. Suchara is the Heortling minor deity of rye, the cereal somewhat associated with darkness (dark bread, ergot, ...), a fitting neighbor to the Shadow Plateau.

On the whole, river valleys tend to unify the populations there rather than to create well-defined borders. Rivers as borders are a tricky concept, as keeping the river valleys defined takes a lot of taming - an effort that probably takes place in low-lying parts of Esrolia where some irrigation and water management is likely to happen, but which won't happen in Heortland which doesn't usually have entirely dry seasons.

 

I used to be in disagreement with Jeff on how much separate ethnic identities would be maintained in cities like Karse over the nearly two millennia of their existence. From what I see in Nochet, there has been an identifiable Pelaskite minority there for almost all of its history of being a sea port, and in all likelihood also through the dark times when Choralinthor had turned into a rather stagnant saline marshland prior to the heroism of Engizi and the reversal/self sacrifice of (nearly) all the rivers. From what I see in History of the Heortling Peoples, the foreigner laws of Aventus that date from the earliest Second Age were a returning feature in the expansion of the Hendriki kingdom in the Adjustment Wars in Esrolia, and the continued existence of the Esvulari with their strictly endogamous castes is another point in favor.

The coastal Pelaskites have a (deserved) reputation for being promiscuous with whoever they come into contact with (sailors with significant others in every regular port), which will have affected their genetic make-up. Yet no matter the parentage of these children, most of their livelihood comes from activities few Heortlings or Esrolians share - the gathering and aquatic gardening (sea weed, oysters and other mollusks). There are sailors from Esrolian houses, especially in Nochet and probably in Rhigos, and there would have been a Hendriki navy or coast guard during their domination in the Adjustment Wars remnants of which probably probably remain in the County of the Isles.

 

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10 hours ago, jajagappa said:
20 hours ago, soltakss said:

What are the Sixths called? Land Goddesses generally share names with their lands, so the 6 Goddesses might share names with the Sixths.

But supposedly these 6 goddesses were only revealed AFTER Belintar's rituals, so long after the places had common names.

Are the names of the sixths the same as the names of the original lands? I doubt it very much. I would expect the Sixths to have special names.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

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1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Are the names of the sixths the same as the names of the original lands? I doubt it very much.

"Esrolia" may encompass a different set of regions depending in which context it is used. There are fringe cases, mainly Porthomeka, which may be included in some definitions and excluded in others.

The Heortland Plateau and the Marzeel River valley all the way up to the Cross Line became (accessible) Heortland only after the Dragonkill. Prior to that, the Hendriki kingdom and its tributaries extended all the way to the Dragonspine. Prior to that, there was the EWF pretty much north of the Cross Line, with possibly minor alterations leading to a less straight border with the Kingdom of Night. Prior to the EWF, the region was known as Orlanthland, which may have been slightly more inclusive than Heortland (Land of the Heortlings) with respect to Saird and maybe Talastar.

My clumsy way of describing that region shows how little united this place was. Heortlings inside the Kingdom of Night, but the Kingdom of Night used to have (tax) authority over much of Orlanthland until the Tax Slaughter.

The Hendriki kingdom had its greatest extent around 1100, and was fairly obscure before 1042. It recovered relatively quickly from the territorial loss in the Dragonkill, re-distributing much of the population that used to live north of the Crossline that had come down south as refugees before the arrival of the True Golden Horde. (I don't see any evidence for something like the Dresden Firebombing in the Dragonkill War, targeting refugees evading the approaching armies. Captives of the True Golden Horde would have been targeted alongside their captors, though.)

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I would expect the Sixths to have special names.

It is possible that they were named after the elemental rune or the Man rune (for God Forgot) in magical administration. So the Earth Sixth, the Fire Sixth, the Sea Sixth etc.

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5 hours ago, Joerg said:

I used to be in disagreement with Jeff on how much separate ethnic identities would be maintained in cities like Karse over the nearly two millennia of their existence. From what I see in Nochet, there has been an identifiable Pelaskite minority there for almost all of its history of being a sea port, and in all likelihood also through the dark times when Choralinthor had turned into a rather stagnant saline marshland prior to the heroism of Engizi and the reversal/self sacrifice of (nearly) all the rivers. From what I see in History of the Heortling Peoples, the foreigner laws of Aventus that date from the earliest Second Age were a returning feature in the expansion of the Hendriki kingdom in the Adjustment Wars in Esrolia, and the continued existence of the Esvulari with their strictly endogamous castes is another point in favor.

The coastal Pelaskites have a (deserved) reputation for being promiscuous with whoever they come into contact with (sailors with significant others in every regular port), which will have affected their genetic make-up. Yet no matter the parentage of these children, most of their livelihood comes from activities few Heortlings or Esrolians share - the gathering and aquatic gardening (sea weed, oysters and other mollusks). There are sailors from Esrolian houses, especially in Nochet and probably in Rhigos, and there would have been a Hendriki navy or coast guard during their domination in the Adjustment Wars remnants of which probably probably remain in the County of the Isles.

I'm reminded of a text on ethnic boundaries between the Fur people (sedentary horticulturalists) and Baggara (semi-nomadic cattle herders) in South Sudan. Without going into too much detail, the text details how the two groups stay pretty stable despite there being quite a lot of mixing between the two. This is because the two different modes of living are considered somewhat synonymous with the ethnic groups themselves. Cases of a Fur farmer's son buying a group of a cattle and setting off and essentially becoming a Baggara, or a Baggara marrying into a Fur family and becoming a Fur are quite common and (mostly) unproblematic. The group-divide remains, however, and the two groups do not start conflating on a categorica level, ie. they remain separate as collective groups despite the relatively free demographic flow between them. 

I imagine that the Pelaskites might have something similar going in in the Choralinthor. To be a Pelaskite is not necessarily about ancient lineages or what have you. If you initiate to Pelaskos, buy into a fisher crew, start farming seaweed/saltwort, marry a Pelaskite, or what have you, you become a Pelaskite. If you give it up and marry the nice lady/lad from the upland Heortling clan and start ranching cattle, you cease being one. 

Just a suggestion, but one I think is reasonably plausible.

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Both Heortlings and Pelaskites appear to accept that if you marry into their group or join their group wyter, you are one of their group.  Esrolian houses might have some form of client state for people joining them other than through marriage.

Your group identities may be measured by the wyters that recognize you and the leaders that expect you to contribute to their endeavors (however so slightly).

In order to get married into a Heortling clan (or in the Storm Age, Vingkotling tribe), you need to bring an advantage - which might be new skills and magic, as was the case with the Hyalorings, or new riches, again with the horse herds of the Hyalorings who became the Berennethtelli and the Orgovaltes. You can become a follower of one of their leaders without such a marriage, and still be recognized as belonging if not to the clan then at least the leader's household, with pretty much the same degree of integration and protection. Yuko Dostopikis and his family had the protection of Gringle [spoilers]before Gringle's departure, and quite likely followed Gringle into his exile[/spoilers].

 

The city of Schleswig was founded on the opposite shore of the Schlei fjord in 1066, after an Obodrite Slav who had clung to his pagan ways had led his folk against that city from the south. (That was a time when the Danes - who had provided a large part of the Great Fleets that used to harrass the English shores - retreated from coastal settlements because of Viking activity by these Slavs.)

I don't know whether the fisherfolk settlement on the Holm, then still an island just outside of the newly built city, had already been there prior to the establishment of the new seat of the bishopric. At a guess, I would think so. Their presence is attested for the early years of the city, and to this day the fisherfolk from the Holm have exclusive commercial fishing rights in the inner fjord. They have a separate church (or rather large chapel), surrounded by their own churchyard, in the middle of their picturesque appendix to the city. The backyards of the houses on the water side all have a small elevated "quay" protected from the waves by wickerwork or modern replacements, and a shallow piece of beach where a boat can be beached.

People in this region have been sedentary since before the arrival of the first agriculturalists. While the Baltic Sea has undergone rather drastic changes in water levels and post-glacial ground elevation and depression, the population on the coast continued to harvest the food it offered, and only since the Middle Ages the bounty of the sea failed to regenerate properly. Yet the fisherfolk remained, possibly losing parts of their population to the agriculturalists on the dry lands.

As far as we can tell, the languages of the fisherfolk and of the agriculturalists merged, creating that special love for chained consonants that characterizes Germanic languages. Technical terms will have been brought in by the specialists in their respective fields.

 

Long term cohabitation will have led to some adaptation of the neighbors' customs and costume, while other peculiarities are quite likely never to die out. Local costume will of course be dictated by what is available, but even when new materials or dyes or patterning techniques become available, they will be adapted to that costume rather than switching over to a greater community's uniform. The introduction of clan plaid in Scotland appears to be a modern age thing and probably was absent in the times when a kilt was still synonymous with your sleeping blanket, but there would have been other telltale insignia communicating clan membership to those in the know.

In this light, it is entirely possible that the fisherfolk along the Esrolian coast and wider estuaries and the river-folk beyond that have adopted uxorilocal marriages while those on the Heortland coast may practice Heortling (or adjusted) practices.

Different forms of wedding gifts are an effective way of reducing out-of-group marriages between these cultures, reserving those for political alliances. Your clan on the Heortland plateau will have little interest in the bridal boat or large net provided in Pelaskite rites, although they will accept these for their symbolic value (and possibly include them in their clan exhibits) if they come as part of a political arrangement.

Mixing the blood will happen easily. The Pelaskites are likely to be a creole people of Storm and Sea/River populations, and through contact with sailors from elsewhere they may have other influences, too. It has been two generations since the Closing, and you are likely to encounter boats off Seapolis with Pelaskites exhibiting first generation admixture from Melib, Maslo or Fonrit. Admixture of Yggite or Western blood won't stand out as the Pelaskites had extensive contact with Slontos and the Middle Sea Empire before the Closing. Even Melibite influences may be hard to detect.

Agriculture with plowing will be the exception among the Pelaskites. Maintaining the cattle to provide the necessary oxen may be difficult.

 

The lands below the cliffs defining the Heortland Plateau may have a few Heortling style farms where the soil is not too heavy. Rock slides are an ongoing danger, and there won't be many permanent houses directly below the cliffs. On the other hand, caves and crevices may be in use as secondary storages and more or less hidden refuges in case of pirate raids.

I expect fairly good pasture on parts of the coasts, which may have led to some degree of lowland transhumance from clans living atop the plateau, or otherwise some rather permanent system of cattle loans to coastal dwellers. The island dwellers before the Heortland coast have only few farmers.

I'll go into detail about this elsewhere.

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