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Glory Awards: doubts


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I know that awarding glory is not an exact science and your Pendragon may vary, etc...

I've been trying to use KAP 5.2 p. 121-128 and 255-257 as a guidance.

A few doubts:

 

1) "SUCCESFUL TASK" AWARDS

Are the suggested amount DIVIDED among the knights or each knigt gets that amount?

E.g. 4 knights participate to an adventure which is an Heroic Task =100 Glory.

Does each of them get 25 or 100?

I mean, I know that the text says "received an equal share of Glory" but again, I'm not native english speaker, so this gives me doubts about the "equal" and "share". 

 

2) DEFEATED ENEMIES

It is a pity that, while monster stats have also a "Glory Won" entry, the stats for human opponents do not have such an entry.

Off course the list on page 255 helps a lot and, at the end of the day, maybe even getting an enemy a few points of Glory wrong, will not be a drama.

However, that list is FAR from being complete.

For example a "Saxon Raider" should give 35 Glory....but to whom it refers among the Saxons on page 207? The Saxon Warrior, Berserker or Chieftain?

What should I do to calculate the Glory of defeating Saxon heroes/chieftains, not in that list?

I know that I can compare them to the different ranks of Knights stats on pages 204-205, using possible possible Glory levels and related awards on page 255...but isn't it too laborious?

And what is the difference in Glory between  Archers, Foor Soldiers and ROyals Guardsmen, given that none of them have Glory stats on page 255? 

Does anybody got a list of possible "Glory Won" entries, at least for the sample NPCs mentioned in the Core Rules?

 

3) GLORY AWARDS IN ARMY LISTS

One question: can I use the Glory Awards from Army lists (Book of Battle p.91-99, Book of Armies)??

I know that Book of Battle p. 91 says that the suggested Glory is LESS than what one would get in a single man-to-man combat, but I would like to know how those Glory awards in the army lists are calculated.

 If I know that those awards are 1/2 or 2/3 or any other formula, maybe it could be helpful for treating them as a guide!

 

Edited by Luca Cherstich
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1 hour ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Are the suggested amount DIVIDED among the knights or each knigt gets that amount?

Divide. After all, it is much more glorious if you rescue the maiden single-handedly. You can take this to ad absurdum and ask if killing a panther or some such is worthy 100 Glory each, if 1000 knights are in the group doing it? I say obviously not. So the successful task glory ought to be divided, just like defeating an enemy is divided.

Also: "Assuming cooperation and similar contributions, each participant receives an equal share of the Glory. The Gamemaster should reduce or eliminate the share of any character that held the others back or was uninvolved." It is clear that there is no point to this whole paragraph if the Task Glory is not divided up between the PKs normally.

Edited by Morien
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1 hour ago, Luca Cherstich said:

I know that I can compare them to the different ranks of Knights stats on pages 204-205, using possible possible Glory levels and related awards on page 255...but isn't it too laborious?

Here is the thing. This whole Appendix 6 is based on 4th Edition Glory (although the knightly opponent Glory has been reduced significantly, thankfully), and 5th Edition changed the defeated enemy Glory calculation completely (EDIT: Apparently I misremembered, see below.). So you should make up your mind which you wish to use, and then do it consistently.

If you go with 5th Edition, human opponents ought to be worth the skills they use in combat + 1% of their Glory, IIRC. Commoners ought to have very little in the way of Glory, so easier to just ignore it. Saxon chieftains and thegns probably have some Glory, so you can eyeball it, depending on how notorious they are in your game. (EDIT: OK, nevermind. Apparently the above was Greg's own house rules on his webpage back in the day, and since 5.0 didn't have the Glory table in the book, he just told people to use the Glory calculation on his webpage. For some reason I thought it was the official rule, but I couldn't find it in 5.x rulebooks.)

If you go with 4th Edition, then, sure, look up a roughly equivalent knight in skills and give Glory accordingly, downgrading it a bit if it was just a regular Saxon Warrior (i.e. Raider), instead of a noble thegn or a chieftain.

Edited by Morien
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1 hour ago, Luca Cherstich said:

I would like to know how those Glory awards in the army lists are calculated.

Don't we all? My guess: Greg just eyeballing it and picking a number from 5 (trash, missile troops), 10 (main infantry), 15 (main cavalry) and 20 (elite cavalry).

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50 minutes ago, Morien said:

If you go with 5th Edition, human opponents ought to be worth the skills they use in combat + 1% of their Glory, IIRC. Commoners ought to have very little in the way of Glory, so easier to just ignore it. Saxon chieftains and thegns probably have some Glory, so you can eyeball it, depending on how notorious they are in your game. (EDIT: OK, nevermind. Apparently the above was Greg's own house rules on his webpage back in the day, and since 5.0 didn't have the Glory table in the book, he just told people to use the Glory calculation on his webpage. For some reason I thought it was the official rule, but I couldn't find it in 5.x rulebooks.)

Highest combat skill or sum all the combat skills?

By the way, the rules sounds nice, although it does not make sense for all enemies.

A Saxon Raider gives 35 Glory, but a Saxon Warrior has Axe 14 in the NPC chapter .... does it means that it has 2100 Glory?? Isn't it too much?

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Just by chance I happened to read throught the "Quest of the Red Blade"....and it looks like it has some Glory award indication, and Iask myself how it relates to the indications in KAP 5.2.

Page 15: 100 Glory to EACH KNIGHT....so, does it mean that Task Glory should not be divided?

Furthermore basic enemy warriors are worth 20 Glory....is this based on the "Pict Warrior" in the Glory table in Core Rules 5.2?

(which also means that "ordinary bandits" are weaker than common warriors....but why Saxons in the Core Rules table give more glory than ordinary Pict Warriors?).

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49 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Highest combat skill or sum all the combat skills?

Sum of all combat skills USED in the encounter. So a knight with 2000 Glory, and skill 15 in Sword, Lance and Horsemanship would be worth 65 Glory if the fight starts on horseback with Lances and then continues with Swords (whether mounted or on foot), 50 Glory if the fight starts on horseback with Lances or Swords and is settled with the same weapon, and 35 Glory if it is a duel on foot with Swords.

Quote

By the way, the rules sounds nice, although it does not make sense for all enemies.

A Saxon Raider gives 35 Glory, but a Saxon Warrior has Axe 14 in the NPC chapter .... does it means that it has 2100 Glory?? Isn't it too much?

You are mixing two different systems here. It is one or the other. Using Greg's houserule, the Saxon Warrior would likely be just 14 (as a commoner, don't worry about the Glory), or 27 if they throw a javelin (skill 13) first.

41 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

(which also means that "ordinary bandits" are weaker than common warriors....but why Saxons in the Core Rules table give more glory than ordinary Pict Warriors?).

Ordinary bandits are trash, not something you really brag about defeating (although the true trash is the ordinary foot soldier, grr, see the next reply for more on that). And Saxon Warriors are way more dangerous than Pict Warriors on straight-up combat: Armor 6+6 and Axe 14 with 5d6+1d6 damage vs. Armor 3 and Great Axe 15 with 4d6+1d6 damage. Not to even take SIZ (16 vs. 8 ) and HP (28 vs. 19) into account. 

Edited by Morien
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28 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Page 15: 100 Glory to EACH KNIGHT....so, does it mean that Task Glory should not be divided?

No. This is Participation Glory: "for taking on". You get the Glory for going on this quest, whether or not you succeed. You notice that all the subsequent Task Glory (killing the King, gaining the Red Blade) will be shared.

34 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Furthermore basic enemy warriors are worth 20 Glory....is this based on the "Pict Warrior" in the Glory table in Core Rules 5.2?

Not sure what it is based on. Looking at the stats they look identical to the basic foot soldier in the 5.2, so just 10 Glory each, IMHO. (Foot soldiers with those same stats had 10 Glory in 4th edition, so I am sticking to it. It is possible that Greg or whoever based it on Picts, figuring that one tribal warrior is the same as another one. Personally, I find the rulebook's foot soldiers too weak, they are weaker than bandits, and instead use Entourage's spearmen.)

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43 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

OK. The rule of summing-up USED combat skills + some 1% glory (if noble) sound nice.

Still do not know what to do with Saxon Chieftains (maybe I calculate fake, random glory), and still do not understand how this fit with the "35 Glory Saxon Raider" but, I guess, it will be OK in any case.

Thanks.

There are two different methods:

1) RAW: use the numbers in Appendix 6 and guesstimate missing glory awards. In this system Saxon Raider is 35 Glory.

2) Greg's house rules for human opponents: Sum of used skills + 1% Glory for nobles. In this system Saxon Warrior is 27 Glory if they throw their javelin before melee and 14 if it is axe melee from the start.

The two systems are SEPARATE systems. They are not supposed to match seamlessly. Use one or the other.

 

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12 hours ago, Morien said:

The two systems are SEPARATE systems. They are not supposed to match seamlessly. Use one or the other.

Yes, and like most everything else, neither is really supposed to be the end all, be all method. 

 

12 hours ago, Luca Cherstich said:

OK. The rule of summing-up USED combat skills + some 1% glory (if noble) sound nice.

Way, way....back it used to just be 1/10th of the opponent's glory, or a formula based upon the combat stats of a monster. The system has been altered, adjusted and tinkered with ever since. My advice is not to tie yourself to any one formula, as they all have little flaws and discrepancies- and cannot be perfect. 

What I would advise is to just look at whatever the PK accomplished and consider it it terms of how great a story it would be, and then try to determine the award, using the listed awards in the glory chapter as benchmarks. For example, if a PK defeated a Saxon Warrior (35 glory) but the warrior is bigger and stronger than normal, is known for having greater than normal prowess, or has achieved a lot of glory, then he might be worth 40, 50 or even more glory. 

The important thing, IMO isn't so much about setting the award appropriate to the opponent's abilities as much as setting it comparable to how impressive it would be to defeat the opponent. Thus a unknown but highly skilled bandit or Pict might only be worth 20-25 glory even if they were more skilled and better armored that a young knight. 

 

So just come up with a ladder of awards based on the samples given in the books, and figure out where you think your opponent should fit, and you should end up in the right neighborhood.

 

As for dividing awards or not, it depends on how you classify  tasks. For instance, "freeing a prisoner from a tribe of giants" might be a heroic task, worth 100 glory for a single knight, but might be considered a trivial task, worth only 1 glory point for the entire knights of the round table. Dividing 100 glory by all the knights or making it a trivial task yields about the same results. 

The Quest of the Red Blade is considered a heroic task for the group of player knights to complete, as the adventure, like most, assumes that it will be played by a group of player knights. If a single knight were to complete it on his own, it would be a much more daunting task, probably very heroic or more, and merit more glory.

 

 

 

 

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Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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My rules for glory. They are working well in my campaign.

For a quest, it's usually 100 glory pts for each knight to complete. You save a village from an eternal winter, you save save the beautiful countess from an evil something, etc... I can adjust the glory if the quest is trivial, or super-heroic.

For combat:

  • 5 pts for an angry peasant (or an hungry wolf by the way)
  • 10 pts for a brigand or a soldier
  • 20 pts for a pict warrior or an experimented soldier
  • 25 pts for a saxon warrior, or a sergeant
  • 100 pts for a berserker or a saxon chief

For a defeated knight, the glory awards are:

  • 50 pts for an ordinary knight (less than 2000 glory points)
  • 75 pts for an notable knight (Beetween 2000 and 3999 glory points)
  • 100 pts for a famous knight (beetween 4000 and 7999 glory points)
  • 250 pts for a extraordinary knight (beetween 8000 and 15999 glory points)
  • 500 pts for a legendary knight (16.000 glory points or more)

The legendary knights are very powerful, Lancelot, Gawaine, and the like.

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6 hours ago, Luca Cherstich said:

OK, I got it...that's a "Do it Yourself" approach, and somehow makes sense to me. I'll make mix and match the systems according to the situation.

I just hope that 6th edition will get these thinsg cleaerer! 

Probably not. The glory award system has always been in a state of flux. If it were up to me, I'd just do a Glory Ladder along the lines of:

 

Extraordinary: 1000

????: 500

????: 400

???: 300

Very Heroic: 250

Famous Task: 200

Renowned:150

Heroic: 100

Memorable: 50

Significant: 25

Ordinary: 10

Minor: 3

Trivial: 1

I'd then rate each task or opponent according tot he ladder and bump an opponent up or down a rung based upon a particular opponent's glory total (see table below) or extraordinary abilities (i.e. faerie knight, magical sword, "best swordsman in the kingdom", superhuman SIZ or STR).  The idea here would be that a GM would start at the default, and then decide if any additional factors warrant a bump up or down.

Glory (Modifier)

<1K (+0)

1K+ (+1)

1.5K+ (+2)

2K+ (+3)

4K+(+4)

8K+ (+5)

16K+ (+6)

32K+ (+7)

 

Examples:

Ordinary bandit = Ordinary Opponent = 10 Glory

Notable Bandit = Ordinary Opponent , with 1 bump up due to fame = 25 Glory

Warrior = Ordinary Opponent with 1 bump up due to  better armor/professional warrior status = 25 Glory

Mounted, armored non-Knight = Ordinary opponent with a bump up for warrior status and another for having a mount = 50 Glory

Famous  (8,500 Glory) knight = Ordinary Opponent with 5 bumps ups due to glory for 200 Glory.

Small  (SIZ 25) Giant is a Heroic task, worth 100 Glory

Standard (SIZ 40) Giant is a Very Heroic task worth 250 glory (this is the same as a heroic task with 3 bump up due to the larger SIZ and associated stats of the bigger giant)

Huge (SIZ 85) Giant is worth 500 glory (or a heroic task with 6 bumps up for increase SIZ and other stats, or a very heroic task with 3 bumps). 

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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