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BRP Jorune


vagabond

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BTW, Miles has given me the official OK to actually put my conversion

online, and include his artwork if I so desire. Wow, I could almost make

it look professional :)

Just waiting on Andrew's permission ...

Ian

That's great news.

Likes to sneak around

115/420

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BTW, Miles has given me the official OK to actually put my conversion

online, and include his artwork if I so desire. Wow, I could almost make

it look professional :)

Just waiting on Andrew's permission ...

Ian

Talk about making a guy (and his pet conversion) feel inferior! I shall just have to do my own illustrations... :ohwell:

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Hi Ian/vagabond and all other tauthers, dreens and keshts!

I read this thread some weeks ago, because I started to work on a conversion of SOJ to a D100 system too. I live in Germany and SOJ isn't known here, also there might be some collectors and freaks like me who know this game but maybe never played it. I own the 3rd Edition and like many people I too feel that due the errors, cuted off sections, a not so smooth combat system etc the rules should be modernized in some way.

In search for players for adventures on this magnificient world of Jorune I decided to write down the converted/modernized rules in German. I don't own Chaosiums BRP, I am orientated more towards Moongoose RuneQuest for the Open Game License Content and Call of Cthulhu because it is well known in Germany.

Also all my notes and conversions are in German, maybe we can exchange our solutions, ideas and efforts for mutual benefit on this forum. The activity seems nowadays quite at zero. Does this mean you stopped working on your conversion? Actually what have you finished? I would be happy if this forum returns to that sophisticated level of discussion and exchange of ideas which I formerly read with great pleasure.

- begagsel

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Hi begagsel,

Also all my notes and conversions are in German, maybe we can exchange our solutions, ideas and efforts for mutual benefit on this forum.

As with everyone else who has been tinkering with BRP and other system

conversions, any solutions, ideas and efforts are welcome to this discussion.

The activity seems nowadays quite at zero. Does this mean you stopped working on your conversion? Actually what have you finished?

Not finished by a long shot. I am still waiting for Andrew to OK posting of

the conversion, but also, my efforts have stalled a bit as a result of real

life getting in the way. I hope to be able to get back into it this week. I also

have been having a brief conversation with Miles, indirectly Jorune related,

and I need to take care of something for him in that regard.

I would be happy if this forum returns to that sophisticated level of discussion and exchange of ideas which I formerly read with great pleasure.

Anyone can drop ideas in, and I will happily respond. Also, as I said, I hope

to get back into it this week and start posting some more chargen thoughts.

Ian

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  • 3 weeks later...

No updates yet - real life has been extremely busy.

However, as mentioned, I have Jury Duty coming up, and as long as I

am sitting in the calling room without any activity, I should have a good

4 hours or so of nonstop work on Jorune.

A limited number of available PC races will be handled first, basically Humans,

Boccord, Muadra, Woffen, Bronth and Crugar. Isho and Dyshas will most likely

not be complete. But, I will pull basically from the original game as far as

the use of skills and outline some abilities to help differentiate the races,

as well as the standard stat mods.

Ian

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, Jury Duty came and went, and things moved forward a bit. Still not

ready for "publishing" yet, but once I tweak some wording and decide how

much text to provide vs. "You need the Jorune rules", I'll get the initial

document up.

The initial contents will include generating characters, with an emphasis

on the initial playable races (human, boccord, muadra, bronth, woffen,

crugar and tologora). There will be info for most of the rest as well, but

I will the real meat for them in follow up chapters. I will get skills and

professions in, as well as combat (including most of the weapons and

armor). Unfortunately, while my Isho/Color/Dysha stuff is progressing, it is

still not ready for prime time. I will have the characteristics, as well as

Isho and Color Points, and perhaps some core stuff (i.e. Crugar and Woffen

rules with regards to natural dysha use may be in rough but usable form).

And, all docs will be living until I feel they can be frozen.

Ian

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OK, just wanted to drop in a thought:

So, the SIZ characteristic, for some/many, has been issue. What does

it represent? Mass? Height/Length? Some arbitrary combination?

I decided to circumvent that problem altogether by doing something a

little different. I am using SIZ (or, perhaps I will rename it to MASS)

as a frame size/mass density modifier. Since Jorune provides a lot of the

height and weight numbers for the races, I basically derived a formula

as follows:

Weight (kg) = Height (m) * sqrt (STR) * (3*SIZ)

My thoughts are that one should be able to derive and approximate weight

by looking at STR and Height, and modifying that result with some factor to

represent the race's overall mass/density/frame size.

The numbers worked out quite well in most cases, with some exceptions

(and a few exceptions can be easily explained - Cleash, for example, are

specifically weaker than humans, but their bulk is accounted for by their

heavy carapace shells). The values ranged from ~3 (Muadra frex) to ~9

(Bronth) - I truncated or rounded, and sometimes fudged a little due to listed

weights being odd or discrepancies in data in various texts/editions. And,

the numbers made sense - Bronth are by far the most massive/dense (up

to 1000 lbs with an 8 ft frame), Boccord and Corastin have the same SIZ

modifier since there frames are comparable (though, since Corastin are so

much taller, I increased their SIZ to reflect that fact), and Croid are denser

than Corastin (shorter, but stronger). I have also figured out how to use

this SIZ factor to determine damage bonuses (the formula actually fits the

standard STR+SIZ table pretty well) as well as HP (though I may use a

STR+CON avg modified by a SIZ factor). I was also able to use the numbers

to figure out some decent STR ranges for the extreme races - Croid, Corastin,

and Bronth.

However, while I have logically (at least in my mind) come up with a suitable

and useful (in some ways) SIZ concept, some of the old uses for SIZ are no

longer valid (for example, armor fitting certain SIZ or a range of SIZ - but I

was never really happy with that rule anyway).

Anyway, I just wanted to enlighten you all with my SIZ philosophy in an effort

to hopefully generate some discussion/debate. I can put up a file with basic

stat blocks for all major races in a few days so you can see how things

work out. This won't be a complete character chapter since it will not have

professions, skills, and racial modifiers/abilities, but it should allow people to

start rolling up characters and using the standard Jorune profession/templates

to get some idea of how things will work out.

Ian

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My understanding of SIZ is that it represents Mass. This is corroborated by Ringworld, were SIZ is renamed as MAS. Other sources in SB adventures and supplements include creatures and demons were SIZ is quite high due to density, but apparent SIZ is lower.

I have to say I do like SIZ as a stat. It is completely arbitrary, incomprehensible anf ambigous, but I really do like it.

I'm looking forward to seeing the stat blocks.

Likes to sneak around

115/420

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Wiser heads than mine have pointed out that most of the BRP characteristics are either rather woolly and ambiguous or cover at least two related but different (and possibly contrary)* things.

par example

Dex = gross motor co-ordination (Agility) AND fine motor co-ordination (Manipulation)

Pow = strength of one's link to the gods (AND by semi-concious inference) willpower AND luck

Str = explosive strength AND static strength

Con = stamina AND general health

Int = memory AND capacity for abstract thought AND acuity of senses

App= physical beauty AND physical ugliness AND capacity to impose one's point of view on others AND charm and likeableness

Edu = formal education AND life experience

So Siz being defined originally as mass end of discussion and it then being used as a basis for height, armspan, indside leg measurement, shoe size and hat size seems to me if anything cleaner and less ambiguous than other 'inherent' scores.

I have considered and never got round to making each of the stats in fact a pair. Generate the base score then swap upto 3 points within the pair.

i.e. Dex becomes Agl/Man

I roll a 13 and being a powergaming munchkin swap 3 points to make it

Agl/Man 16/10

In the white heat of character generation and running games I've never quite made it to actually going to this much effort.

The difference with your suggestion of having a calculation for deriving mass from STR, SIZ and (racial constant) is that you are providing some kind of real world number upon wwhich to hang some suspension of dissbelief. So good luck to you!

Al

* for one, marathon runners develop great stamina and thus one would expect high CON but (empirically at least) have weaker immune systems and less reserves and so are prone to colds and infections and thus low CON.

Rule Zero: Don't be on fire

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Dex = gross motor co-ordination (Agility) AND fine motor co-ordination (Manipulation)

I agree with this.

Pow = strength of one's link to the gods (AND by semi-concious inference) willpower AND luck

But not this - only in games where gods matter does this hold.

Str = explosive strength AND static strength

Also, I don't agree - I find that explosive strength would be related to static

strength, so in my mind, it's one in the same.

Con = stamina AND general health

Agree here.

Int = memory AND capacity for abstract thought AND acuity of senses

But not here - there are specific skills to represent the senses, and INT may

affect them, it is not by means of representing acuity of the senses, but

rather interpreting the information the senses collect.

App= physical beauty AND physical ugliness AND capacity to impose one's point of view on others AND charm and likeableness

Disagree here as well. Beauty/ugliness is the same thing, but APP does not

represent charm, likeableness, nor imposing ones POV on others. It might

affect it, but it is not the same. This is the old CHA vs. APP as a stat

argument. While the CHA roll derived from APP might point towards some sort

of direct relationship, again, there are a number of social skills that isolate it.

Edu = formal education AND life experience

Agree here, but EDU is not always used :)

So Siz being defined originally as mass end of discussion and it then being used as a basis for height, armspan, indside leg measurement, shoe size and hat size seems to me if anything cleaner and less ambiguous than other 'inherent' scores.

The difference with your suggestion of having a calculation for deriving mass from STR, SIZ and (racial constant) is that you are providing some kind of real world number upon wwhich to hang some suspension of dissbelief. So good luck to you!

Al

One of my main problems with SIZ as a stat is that it ambiguity leads to

consistency problems. Also, there is some redundancy with STR. Higher STR

implies more muscle mass implies more mass implies more SIZ anyway. My

methodology extracts STR from the picture, removing that redundancy. If

SIZ were a pure representation of mass, that would be one thing, but, as

you say, it represents so many other things. And, as a result, I think it

muddies the water so much more.

Ian

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  • 3 months later...

OK all, here are some thoughts on Isho, Color and dyshas.

As mentioned before, one rolls 3d6 (modified for race - either more dice,

different dice, or flat ads, I haven't really decided yet) for Isho and Color.

Isho determines Isho Points, modified for race.

Color yields points to spend on the various Moon and Isho related skills

(potentially things like Interference, Unweaving, and the various dynamic

and static Isho skills). Again, these points, and to some degree what they

can be spent on as well as how they are spent, are determined by race.

Dysha using players/races can specialize in one or more Moons, giving the

some advantage in their use, but this yields disadvantages when using

other Moons/Colors.

To learn a dysha, a player rolls against the primary Moon Skill (Color) for

that dysha. There are modifiers based upon the number of additional Colors

involved in the weave, as well any Moon Skill specialization and inherent

dysha difficulty. Also, using Shanthas, Hishtins, and Muadra as teachers,

will yield modifiers as well. Optionally, instead of a difficulty modifier based

upon each Color in the dysha, I may require individual rolls for each Color.

While closer to the original Jorune mechanics, this does add some additional

complexity.

Once known, list the dysha on the character sheet.

I am still tinkering with either individual skills for the weaving of each dysha,

or basing the weaving roll on the appropriate Moon skill(s) with modifiers. If

I go with individual skills, then the learning process will set beginning level

based upon the primary Moon skill, modified perhaps by level of success.

Another option would be a generic weaving skill, which is modified by Moon

skill level and other factors.

Anyway, just wanted to put this out there for some comments.

Ian

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Learning dyshas: how about one roll under all the other TN's? Ie roll under your lowest skill.

Its back to RQ sorcery but I always envisioned dysha weaving as sorcery done right.

With regard to weaving, I'd favour basing it on Moon skills rather than a separate skill for each. Its the bad thing in RQ sorcery again where improvement is painfully slow for each spell. I'd favour a small set of skills that can be mastered and allow for different effects dependong on how you mix them.

I imagine that when a maudra gets good with certain Moon skills picking up a completely new dysha will not be a problem.

Likes to sneak around

115/420

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Learning dyshas: how about one roll under all the other TN's? Ie roll under your lowest skill.

I go back and forth a little here. It penalizes a high Moon skill, while the

reverse, basing it upon the highest skill, ignores the lower skill levels.

I think I'll defer to the highest skill, but set some difficulty mod based upon

the other lower skills.

Its back to RQ sorcery but I always envisioned dysha weaving as sorcery done right.

With regard to weaving, I'd favour basing it on Moon skills rather than a separate skill for each. Its the bad thing in RQ sorcery again where improvement is painfully slow for each spell. I'd favour a small set of skills that can be mastered and allow for different effects dependong on how you mix them.

Agree on both counts. Hence I am leaning towards the Moon skills. I just need

to determine the best approach. The plus for going with individual dysha

skills, it is much easier to work with. But, then you have 7 Moon skills,

an unlimited number of dysha skills as new ones are created, and all of

the Isho skills ... That's a lot of skills.

I imagine that when a maudra gets good with certain Moon skills picking up a completely new dysha will not be a problem.

Yes and no. Picking up a new one is easier, when there are resources

to assist such as Shantha, Hishtins, etc. But, for creation of entirely new

dysha (or there is no Shantha or Hishtin or other Muadra), it might be a little

tough ...

But, good thoughts. Keep 'em coming.

Ian

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Predictably (given what I did in my port of Isho and Dysha's to BRP), I prefer the separate skill for each Dysha. I liked the Jorune 3e system that emphasised the martial-arts like feel of Dyshas - and I think a separate skill re-infroces that. For me, muadra Dyshas' are orders of magnitude more crude than anything the shanthas do with isho... Which is why for them it's always a big deal.

Cheers,

Nick

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Hey Mick,

Predictably (given what I did in my port of Isho and Dysha's to BRP), I prefer the separate skill for each Dysha. I liked the Jorune 3e system that emphasised the martial-arts like feel of Dyshas - and I think a separate skill re-infroces that. For me, muadra Dyshas' are orders of magnitude more crude than anything the shanthas do with isho... Which is why for them it's always a big deal.

Hmmm, good point, and one I think I had running around in the back of my mind,

to some degree at least.

For Muadra, Woffen and Crugar, dyshas do not come as naturally, but seem to

be more academic, or, to go along with your martial arts likeness, at least more

studious and meditative in nature. But, for the natural Joruni life - Shantha,

Corondon and such, it is a natural process (though quite refined in the

case of Shantha). I would lean more towards Shantha being more meditative

and Muadra, Woffen and Crugar more studious.

Anyway, it makes sense then to have dyshas as separate skills for Muadra,

Woffen and Crugar (and others ...), and have Shantha and other Joruni natives

base it directly upon the Moon skills or a simple weaving skill heavily influenced

by Moon skills. I think I'll go this route for now, which will allow me to get

Isho stuff out for PC races faster, and then develop the more natural/innate

methodology later, and leave it as an alternative system for all Isho wielders.

This leads to some other thoughts:

IIRC, Thriddle taught Woffen and Crugar their dyshas, and Thriddle supposedly

have studied Isho enough to be versed in some Isho skills similar to Boccord

(don't forget, Thriddle worked with Lamorri, and Lamorri were able to create

technologies that were able to manipulate and process Isho, so Thriddle may

have been exposed to some of that - another scenario carrot ...).

But, IIRC, in other sources, Muadra taught the Woffen the Power Hold dysha,

I believe during the Ninnindrue Plague slayings. This actually makes for some

good RPG setting stuff - what if the Thriddle taught the Crugar Lighting Blast,

and Muadra taught the Woffen Power Hold during the Crugar onslaught? Why

did the Thriddle teach the Crugar? Did the Thriddle have an alliance, or

wished to manipulate the Crugar for their own purposes? And how do the

Thriddle react to the Muadra intervention? Some more good scenario seeds and

gives the setting a more interesting dynamic.

Also, with the Lamorri interest and success in harnessing and manipulating Isho,

which Lamorri races have access to these devices? How much about Isho

do the Thriddle know about? What about Ramian? And, if Thivin are Ramian

offshoots, either natural mutations or Lamorri engineered, do they have more

Isho use?

More to chew on ...

Ian

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Some more Thriddle thoughts - to give people more fodder. Bear in mind,

this is my interpretation (or, rather, reinterpretation) of how things are,

to fit how I envision things and how to make life on Jorune that much

more interesting.

So, as I mentioned before, it seems like there could have been more interesting

stuff done with the Thriddle. For whatever reason, the Thriddle (Bennid Ho-Gomo)

taught the Crugar the Lightning Blast dysha, and the Muadra (perhaps Caji

Gends himself) taught the Woffen the Power Hold dysha in response (during

the Ninindrue Plague slayings most likely). Again, why? I find it rather odd that

the books say it was an honest mistake.

So, let's think about things. Much of the Tauther Guide, and indeed, most of

the Jorune history included as text in the game books, comes from the Thriddle.

Now, we know the Thriddle were a slave race to the Lamorri (both the Thriddle

and Corastin/Croid home worlds were conquered and consumed by the Lamorri,

whereas the Cleash were a client race - which I will come back to later). Now,

the Thriddle probably played a large part in the Lamorri's success in harnessing

and tapping into Isho, as well as the Lmaorri's understanding of Jorune

itself, including Shantha. Perhaps, the Thriddle covertly were able to assist

the Shantha in defeating the Lamorri. This would serve multiple purposes.

First, the Thriddle's oppressors would be overthrown, exacting revenge and

freeing the Thriddle from slavery. Also, this would give the Thriddle an

opportunity to become an important race on Jorune, considering they could

act as go between for the Shantha and the Ramian and Corastin/Croid.

The Cleash, however, would be mightily upset - they are now stuck on

Jorune because of the Thriddle treachery (wow, and how the Cleash hate

Thriddle) since the Cleash were not a slave race, but a client race. No

going home for them (whereas the Corastin/Croid and Thriddle apparently

have no home to go back to). So, the Corastin and Croid would be pretty

satisfied - they hated being slaves, and probably hated the Lamorri in

general. And, the Corastin and Croid seem to get along with Thriddle fine.

The Ramian might be a little indifferent, or at least mixed. The Ramian, again,

are like monkeys to the Lamorri. Enslaved, perhaps experimented upon, they

would also welcome their new found freedom as well (and, again, Thriddle

seem to be more accepted into Ramian folds - they can distinguish the sexes

for example). Some Ramian may be upset that they can no longer return to

their home world, but some may relish the thought that they do not have to.

Now, what does this have to do with the humans, mutants and Iscin races?

Well, the humans had peace with the Shantha. Humans naturally assert

themselves. Some humans may have made inroads with Ramian and

Corastin/Croid. These new humans and human mutations could potentially

topple the Thriddle as the single most important race on Jorune - they

could become the go betweens, the diplomats, etc. The Thriddle would not

be so keen to have this happen. So, again, knowing that the Thriddle may

have had a behind the scenes role in the defeat of the Lamorri, they may have

also played a similar role in the Shanthic attacks on humans. And, creating

chaos between the Crugar and Woffen could go a long way to disrupting

things as well.

Oh, those innocent Thriddle ...

Ian

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Nice.

Read some Larry Niven books with Puppeteers (aptly named). I've only read the Ringworld books so far.

The pupperteers are the most cowardly and yet passive aggressive race in the galaxy. They started a war to eliminate their two biggest threats in the galaxy, effectively controled human and K'zin breeding over generations. Engineered all sorts of events to ensure the advantage to their species.

Very interesting.

I agree there is more to the Thriddle than meets the eye. A lot can be made of them in a campaign. Here's a challenge now, what else could the Thriddle be responsible for?

Likes to sneak around

115/420

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Nice.

Read some Larry Niven books with Puppeteers (aptly named). I've only read the Ringworld books so far.

You assume I haven't already ;)

I agree there is more to the Thriddle than meets the eye. A lot can be made of them in a campaign. Here's a challenge now, what else could the Thriddle be responsible for?

The existence of Thivin, Trarch, Muadra, Boccord?

Bochigon are descended from Corastin/Croid stock, but did they come from

the Corastin homeworld, or engineered on Jorune?

Much of the Lamorri Isho tech, including whatever is under Ardoth and the

Thoosahs?

Various Ramian aggressions in search of Shirm-eh?

The Cleash in Githaw, where they naturally would never go?

The isolation of Tologora?

Ian

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