Do Aeolian villages or towns have wyters?

[10baseT]

Page 286 of the core rulebook states the wyter can cast any rune spell or spirit magic known by it's priest, which is probably the village/town talar i'm guessing, the leader anyways. The actual Aeolian priest being is a sorceror. So just trying to reconcile the two. I'm guessing the answer is yes and the Aeolian talar in all probability worships Orlanth...

Then what about the Aeolian temple? Would it have a wyter because sorcerory could possibly be involved at this point.

Edited March 28, 2020 by 10baseT

[metcalph]

Aeolian priests are not sorcerers but ordinary Orlanth priests.  Aeolian Sorcerers are not found in the villages but in the big cities.  So Aeolian villages have wyters. 

[Joerg]

While not Aeolian, Sir Narib's company is a Malkioni group that we know has a wyter for sorcerers. I think that indicates that Malkioni sorcerers create and use wyters, too..

[Ali the Helering]

Whether it is called a wyter or not, IMG every community has a guardian being. 

[davecake]

Yes, sorcerous cultures still have wyters, just different wyters. 

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

Aeolian priests are not sorcerers but ordinary Orlanth priests.  Aeolian Sorcerers are not found in the villages but in the big cities.  So Aeolian villages have wyters. 

Agree. Largely you should think of villages in southern Heortland/Esvular as being part of a continuum of Heortling (i.e. Orlanthi) culture. They may have adopted some Esvulari customs (e.g. talars including nobles/priests coming from a more restrictive group of bloodlines, sorcerers who come out of the cities to visit and bless the villages), but otherwise they function similar to those in the north with a communal wyter, temples to the gods, etc.

15 minutes ago, davecake said:

sorcerous cultures still have wyters, just different wyters. 

And the Aeolian/Esvulari really can't be thought of as a purely sorcerous culture - it's more an Orlanthi culture with a more defined "class" structure including a class of sorcerers.

[10baseT]

Thank you, this has been very informative. So in the large village/small town with Aeolians/Esvulari and traditional Orlanthi (ie non-Esvulari), would the shrine/temple be called the Aeolian temple or the Orlanthi temple? Would that distinction in name be made by the townsfolk? Or maybe it's the same building with the Aeolians calling it the Aeolian temple and the non-Esvulari calling it the Orlanthi temple?

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, 10baseT said:

with Aeolians/Esvulari and traditional Orlanthi (ie non-Esvulari),

Don't think of them as two groups. They are largely Heortlings who have adopted "unusual" practices (by Dragon Pass standards). 

2 hours ago, 10baseT said:

Would that distinction in name be made by the townsfolk?

Nope. Remember that Aeolian just means "wind". Call it the Storm Temple or the Wind Temple and you'll be set, but it's definitely where you worship Orlanth.

[Joerg]

@jajagappa

In Nochet, the Aeolians are a segregated population, though, and not mixed in with the Dragon Pass Heortlings (who live near Orlanth's Hill).

But then, maybe the city temple is the Aeolian thing, whereas the traditional Orlanthi holy place is a hilltop near the settlement. A place that will be visited by the Aeolians, too, at the very least as lay worshipers. (There will be a feast... it's a basic part of sacrifice.)

I don't know whether the cute idea of using baked bread images of beasts in the Aeolian services still is up to date (the HQ1 write-up can still be found in the Well of Daliath). While that would make an Aeolian service visit as nourishing as the traditional Heortling one, it might be somewhat less of a draw, except for worshipers of Chalana Arroy who get to be part of the communion. And I cannot say whether there is any similarity to Corinthians 1 28, either. (Just for dietary restrictions, I am not talking about the general idea of "church" here.)

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Joerg

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

In Nochet, the Aeolians are a segregated population, though, and not mixed in with the Dragon Pass Heortlings (who live near Orlanth's Hill).

Quite true. The Esvulari have been in Nochet a long, long time, though, so I think they are in some ways set in their old ways, and by whatever agreements with the Queens have long lived "outside" the walls.

In Esvular itself, I think that Mount Passant and Refuge probably reflect a similar segregation originally, but likely the distinct communities have been incorporated into the single cities now. But the bloodlines of the talars remain distinct (like separate clans), and that these bloodlines intermarry across the cities, rather than "downward" with the predominantly Heortling clans.

As Jeff has noted the Esvulari worship Orlanth, Chalana Arroy, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and Eurmal as personifications/emanations of the Creator. Their views are perhaps more "theological" or "philosophical", and more codified in their myths, but aside from the sorcerers ("priests") of the Invisible God who focus on the priestly rites for the temples, the ways of the commoners will still resemble those of the Heortlings. (But I do like the idea of these more "ritualized" offerings such as baked bread in the forms of beasts, etc.)

[PhilHibbs]

The wider question of "what is the wyter of a sorcery community like" is an interesting one though.

[Tindalos]

8 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

The wider question of "what is the wyter of a sorcery community like" is an interesting one though.

Depends on how the sorcerous community.

I mean, Seshnela's probably a useful model, and their cities have wyters like the lion-headed guardian of Fralos who needs a Talar woman to act as an intermediary (likely as the wyter's priest, and given the mention of how the Rokari wizards have tried to compel the guardian to serve them without the intermediary, likely suggests that Fralos is an exception that proves the rule that wizards usually act as the "priests" to wyters;) or Loronaga the magical serpent woman of Laraness; or even Paliros's ever burning fire. Then there's the guardian spirits of the warrior societies to contend with.

Then there's Loskalm, another heavily fundamentalist state, where you might see Brisa's lamps and braziers as manifestations of a wyter -- as they're said to be fragments of the Flame of Ehilm. Crosium likely has a guardian from the moon rock that lies within the crater, Dorsomon's statues are likely another example of a wyter, likewise Feleor's cattle and Ramona's Bright Lady.

 

10 hours ago, Joerg said:

And I cannot say whether there is any similarity to Corinthians 1 28, either. (Just for dietary restrictions, I am not talking about the general idea of "church" here

"God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are"? I'm not sure how that necessarily relates to dietary restrictions.

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

"God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are"? I'm not sure how that necessarily relates to dietary restrictions.

1 Corinthians 8, I meant. No idea why my German language source gave that weird numbering, or where the 2 entered. Journey to Damascus, maybe

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

"God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are"?

Clearly the Aeolian sorcerers telling the commoners about why the trollkin and ducks exist, as well as the scorpionmen that are not, and that their purpose is to try to nullify the life of those who follow the emanations of the Invisible God.

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, Tindalos said:

and given the mention of how the Rokari wizards have tried to compel the guardian to serve them without the intermediary, likely suggests that Fralos is an exception that proves the rule that wizards usually act as the "priests" to wyters

The way I read this in the Guide was that it was more a proof that wizards don't like to have anybody telling what to do and how to do it. My first thought here is that sorcerers might commonly use various subservient spirits to help them manage their affairs, and there might be one "main" one that people around the community know about, but then again they might not, and the relationship between the sorcerer, the community, and that spirit are probably vastly different than with a Heortling wyter. If anything, the sorcerer probably wants the local people to have a loyalty towards him/her, rather than towards whatever this spirit represents. As a sorcerer, I would probably keep it very vague what spirits I'm using or not, making it all seem it's all me... but then again, I haven't researched all this much yet so I might be completely off mark here.

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Depends on how the sorcerous community.

I mean, Seshnela's probably a useful model, and their cities have wyters like the lion-headed guardian of Fralos who needs a Talar woman to act as an intermediary (likely as the wyter's priest, and given the mention of how the Rokari wizards have tried to compel the guardian to serve them without the intermediary, likely suggests that Fralos is an exception that proves the rule that wizards usually act as the "priests" to wyters;) or Loronaga the magical serpent woman of Laraness; or even Paliros's ever burning fire. Then there's the guardian spirits of the warrior societies to contend with.

Then there's Loskalm, another heavily fundamentalist state, where you might see Brisa's lamps and braziers as manifestations of a wyter -- as they're said to be fragments of the Flame of Ehilm. Crosium likely has a guardian from the moon rock that lies within the crater, Dorsomon's statues are likely another example of a wyter, likewise Feleor's cattle and Ramona's Bright Lady.

But sorcerers are wont to compel/bind beings, aren't they? Are bound spirits/beings equivalent to worshipped/venerated wyters/community spirits?

[jajagappa]

38 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

But sorcerers are wont to compel/bind beings, aren't they? Are bound spirits/beings equivalent to worshipped/venerated wyters/community spirits?

My take on the "difference" in the wyters between your typical Heortlings and the Aeolians, is not a difference in the community spirit per se, but how they are obtained, and how the conditions for use are set.

In a Heortling fashion, the community being formed prays to the gods, engages in a heroic quest, and brings the wyter spirit back to the community. The wyter is bound/housed within the community, and agreements are made in terms of who can call upon it, and how that occurs.

In an Aeolian community, the sorcerer engages with their ancient texts depending on the needs of the community to follow the path of emanations and determine what spirit to summon. It is the sorcerer who prepares the binding enchantment for the wyter spirit in advance, and inscribes the conditions of use (and likely with the participation of the talar and other nobles); then does the summoning, and then forms the pact with the wyter spirit and helps it enter the binding. 

The spirit may be the same, but the "quest" to find, engage, and bring it back differs.

[Tindalos]

33 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

But sorcerers are wont to compel/bind beings, aren't they? Are bound spirits/beings equivalent to worshipped/venerated wyters/community spirits?

Compare these two situations:

Quote

Bob the wizard is charged by his lord to summon a new spirit to protect the city. He carefully inscribes a vessel with binding sigils, gets his apprentice to ritually anoint it with cow's blood (being a wizard, touching the blood would be far too impure for him to do.)

He casts a mighty spell, charged with magic gained through the chain of veneration and compels a spirit to appear before him.

"Spirit, I compel you by the Law of Malkion and the Words of Zzabur to obey," he intones, "I charge you with the protection of this city, but as the laws state, you shall not go unfed for this, and the people of this city will provide you with magic. But you will obey my words, your powers will be at my command, and you will do my bidding."

To finish the binding, the wizard enchants the vessel, binding the spirit to it where it is now the guardian of the city.

And

Quote

Bob the priest needs to summon a new wyter for his clan. He carefully creates a suitable vessel, inscribing it with symbolic runes, and sacrifices a cow to daub its blood upon the vessel.

He calls upon Orlanth, commanding a minor air god to appear before him.

"Brother Storm, I treat with you as kin, and ask you to honour our shared descend from Orlanth," he implores, "You will protect our clan, but we shall treat you as the god you are, sacrificing to you each holy day. I shall be your priest, and act as your vessel among the clan, using your gifts, and showing you where you are needed."

To finish the ritual, the priest enchants the vessel, providing the air god with a home and allowing it to be the clan's wyter.

Ultimately, there's probably not a massive amount of difference. And Aeolians might be more likely to use the latter method anyway.

It really comes down to respect, as Arkat warned us. And if it's one thing sorcerers are good at, it's not showing respect.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Well, if it's contractual/mutualist, then both methods are virtually equivalent, however I was more talking about sheer compulsion, if such a thing is possible (and judging by some Malkioni history it appears to be, cf. Ladaral under Sog City, possibly Britha, the goddess switch, etc.)

[Tindalos]

9 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, if it's contractual/mutualist, then both methods are virtually equivalent, however I was more talking about sheer compulsion, if such a thing is possible (and judging by some Malkioni history it appears to be, cf. Ladaral under Sog City, possibly Britha, the goddess switch, etc.)

I doubt the Malkioni see it as contractual or mutualist, just the nature of how things are.

You wouldn't call a Lunar master/slave relationship as mutualist just because the master understands that the slave dies if you don't keep them fed. (Although the Lunar master might try to paint it that way...)

Having to keep on replacing the wyter because they kept running out of POW would be really annoying for the wizard.

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

I doubt the Malkioni see it as contractual or mutualist, just the nature of how things are.

You wouldn't call a Lunar master/slave relationship as mutualist just because the master understands that the slave dies if you don't keep them fed. (Although the Lunar master might try to paint it that way...)

Having to keep on replacing the wyter because they kept running out of POW would be really annoying for the wizard.

But see, that's my whole point, Heortlings would never even think of their wyters in terms of slavery or bondage like you kinda quickly did with sorcerously bound entities. 

I understand that this might not make a whole lot of difference from a gameplay mechanical perspective, but in terms of social and cultural significance and meaning they're pretty significantly different. 

It's also different from a story hook perspective too - I mean, I doubt that if somehow the magical ties that keep Hauberk Jon around were to break he would do any harm to Jonstown residents. But some kind of spirit kept in place with sorceous rites? I see the potential for something going berserk for revenge being a lot more in the cards there. 

I'm just saying, I think the nuances matter. Tomato and cherries are both fruit, but a cherry pizza would be a very different thing, you know?

[jajagappa]

55 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Heortlings would never even think of their wyters in terms of slavery or bondage like you kinda quickly did with sorcerously bound entities.

I think for wyters of Heortland, whether of Orlanthi or Aeolian association, it would be mutually agreed upon.

If you get to Seshnela, then its much more likely to have sorcerers that summon, compel, and bind a wyter for the talar.

[French Desperate WindChild]

Hello

what I don't understand there

there are priests both in Orlanthi and Aeolian.

Orlanthi priests can summon (? other verb ) a wyter

Why Aeolian priests couldn't ? Why do they need sorcerers

in fact, if we have orlanth/ernalda/blablabla priests on Aeolian community, that means socerer do something else / more. They shouldn't replace priest action, maybe improve them ?

It's really not clear for me

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Hello

what I don't understand there

there are priests both in Orlanthi and Aeolian.

Orlanthi priests can summon (? other verb ) a wyter

Why Aeolian priests couldn't ? Why do they need sorcerers

in fact, if we have orlanth/ernalda/blablabla priests on Aeolian community, that means socerer do something else / more. They shouldn't replace priest action, maybe improve them ?

It's really not clear for me

The Aeolians are one of many special cases among henotheist Malkioni. They have a variant caste system (strictly endogamous, no soldier/horali caste, no men-of-all but armed and armored talars and militarized other castes) which differs strongly from any Malkioni norm (God Learner Hrestolism, Rokarism, Loskalmi Idealist Hrestolism).

Whether there is a presence of Storm Voices and Wind Lords among the Aeolians, and of what caste, is what we are trying to determine here.

Normally, in a Malkioni society all sacral and magical activities are handled by the Zzabur caste, a caste which the Aeolians have. We also know that not all members of the Aeolian Zzabur caste (which has been described as endogamous) have the mental acuity required to become a sorcerer under RQG rules. Which leaves quite a lot of Aeolian Zzabur caste members with jobs other than sorcerer. Are these individuals priests? Rune Lords, even?

Or are members of the other castes full initiates, or perhaps even rune levels in their theist cults?

 

Now, we know that zzabur caste (sorcerers) handle all the supernatural in Malkioni societies - including the interaction with spirits and lesser deities. The lesser ones are simply dominated, the more powerful ones usually are contacted and bargained with - not unlike what a shaman does, except that the shaman goes where the spirits are whereas the sorcerer calls in the spirits and deities into his summoning circle (which may be at a holy spot of one of these slightly greater entities). The very act of summoning is of course an offering of magic to that entity, not entirely different from a sacrifice.

We don't have any suggestion in the rules what happens to the large amount of magic (magic points) expended in a worship service. The wyter is likely to drink to its fill, but with a POW of up to 30 for a small community (50-100) or up to 66 for a huge community (>15,000) there is no way that the wyter can take all of it for itself. But then, that is not the point of the worship/sacrifice - either the magic is sent onward to the deity whose worship involved that wyter, or it is transformed into a blessing (or blessings) for the community or specific community items or members. (That would also cover curses sent against enemies.)

There are known sorcerous spells (the Tap spells, and a few Rune Spells like Absorption) that allow a sorcerer (or rune magician) to accumulate more MP than his POW can hold, for the duration of that spell. Wyters may have an innate ability to a similar effect, but I haven't seen anything to that effect.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Whether there is a presence of Storm Voices and Wind Lords among the Aeolians, and of what caste, is what we are trying to determine here.

Normally, in a Malkioni society all sacral and magical activities are handled by the Zzabur caste, a caste which the Aeolians have. We also know that not all members of the Aeolian Zzabur caste (which has been described as endogamous) have the mental acuity required to become a sorcerer under RQG rules. Which leaves quite a lot of Aeolian Zzabur caste members with jobs other than sorcerer. Are these individuals priests? Rune Lords, even?

Or are members of the other castes full initiates, or perhaps even rune levels in their theist cults?

Ah thanks, I see this territory is "unknown" (for the moment)

so two main possibilities (and a lot of variations)

Aeolian are first malkioni then orlanthi : zzaburi monopolize all sacred activities (priesthood, sorcery), other work or lead temporaly (but both fight), but they follow storm and earth pantheons

--> variation : runelord, god talker, ...avaible for no zzaburi / and - or / ...

Aeolian are first orlanthi then malkioni : everybody can become priest/runelord (no cast restriction for the gods, but of course social pressure and politic  as any orlanthi culture) but the zzaburi "bloodlines" are authorized to use sorcery and can join any cult as any position

--> variations : priesthood restriction for zzaburi / and - or / possibility to use sorcery even in cult prohibiting sorcery / and - or / zzaburi cannot "work" or "fight" or "lead" / and - or / zzaburi cannot join any cult / and - or / zzaburi can join only few cults (LM for example)...

 

am I right ?