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Do Aeolian villages or towns have wyters?


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26 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Ah thanks, I see this territory is "unknown" (for the moment)

There is no official RQG data for the Esvulari.

There are numerous unofficial attempts to describe the Aeolians, starting with my own attempt from around 1994 for RQ3 (should be in the list archives att glorantha.steff.in) and David Hall's take on them for the How The West Was One freeform of 1994. The latest published rules stuff on them is the HQ1 link above.

Jeff has given a few sneak peeks on how they work now, and at least to me the questions you and I asked still are waiting to get a definitive answer. But then, a series of Holy Country supplements is in the works, and the Aeolians are in close contact with God Forgot, so maybe MOB's project may shed some twilight on this.

Quote

so two main possibilities (and a lot of variations)

Aeolian are first malkioni then orlanthi : zzaburi monopolize all sacred activities (priesthood, sorcery), other work or lead temporaly (but both fight), but they follow storm and earth pantheons

--> variation : runelord, god talker, ...avaible for no zzaburi / and - or / ...

Aeolian are first orlanthi then malkioni : everybody can become priest/runelord (no cast restriction for the gods, but of course social pressure and politic  as any orlanthi culture) but the zzaburi "bloodlines" are authorized to use sorcery and can join any cult as any position

--> variations : priesthood restriction for zzaburi / and - or / possibility to use sorcery even in cult prohibiting sorcery / and - or / zzaburi cannot "work" or "fight" or "lead" / and - or / zzaburi cannot join any cult / and - or / zzaburi can join only few cults (LM for example)...

 

am I right ?

Yes, as you mention the lot of variations and allow for grey space in between.

LM sorcery may be prohibited for non-Zzaburi Aeolians, or it may be a way for the other two castes to access it. Possibly both views are present in the Aeolian communities, possibly with whichever view predominant in rural parts of Esvular given opposition by the Nochet population. The small Wilmskirk contingent might be viewed as heretics by many of the other Aeolians. There is an urban diaspora in Heortling cities of Kethaela, possibly excluding Whitewall, where the Aeolians are a minority. Usually a thrifty and somewhat well-off minority.

There are mixed communities with Heortlings and Aeolians as part of the same city or tribe. No idea whether there are mixed clans (other than urban guilds), though, and how the marriage restrictions for Aeolians can integrate into a Heortling clan, or Heortling egalitarianism into an Aeolian clan.

All of these have great conflict and hence role-playing potential. Conflict in the sense of Robin Laws' Drama System, but nothing you couldn't model with two or three free passions for your RQG characters.

Edited by Joerg
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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Aeolian are first orlanthi then malkioni : everybody can become priest/runelord (no cast restriction for the gods, but of course social pressure and politic  as any orlanthi culture) but the zzaburi "bloodlines" are authorized to use sorcery and can join any cult as any position

This is my understanding, after rereading Jeff's comments in another thread, except that Orlanth's cult does not allow for sorcery usage for his members.

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On 3/30/2020 at 7:24 AM, Tindalos said:

Compare these two situations:

And

Ultimately, there's probably not a massive amount of difference. And Aeolians might be more likely to use the latter method anyway.

It really comes down to respect, as Arkat warned us. And if it's one thing sorcerers are good at, it's not showing respect.

However... It misses the one vital aspect of a wyter - the spiritual symbolism of "The community".

If a sorcerer's pet binding dies - do what? Just get another.

If a *real* wyter, spirit of the community, dies, so too does all social cohesion, and the community itself breaks down/apart.

A wyter is supposed to be more than simply a guardian spirit.

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7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

However... It misses the one vital aspect of a wyter - the spiritual symbolism of "The community".

If a sorcerer's pet binding dies - do what? Just get another.

If a *real* wyter, spirit of the community, dies, so too does all social cohesion, and the community itself breaks down/apart.

A wyter is supposed to be more than simply a guardian spirit.

I imagine the social cohesion would also crumble as well, as Malkioni societies aren't any different ruleswise.

They guard more than just against physical threats after all, and the sundering of communal bonds is the inevitable fallout of a wyter's death.

It's just that sorcerers don't have to necessarily view wyters with respect, just as they don't have to treat gods with them. "Yes, you're a vital piece of the cosmos and without you things wouldn't work. But on the other hand, I understand the laws of the cosmos, so I see no reason to worship you."

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5 hours ago, Tindalos said:

 

It's just that sorcerers don't have to necessarily view wyters with respect, just as they don't have to treat gods with them. "Yes, you're a vital piece of the cosmos and without you things wouldn't work. But on the other hand, I understand the laws of the cosmos, so I see no reason to worship you."

I think that the sorcerer might go even further. "Yes, you're a vital piece of tne cosmos, so I shall manipulate you as far as I can without breaking you." 

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If an orthodox Malkioni wizard (or sorcerer) acts as the chief priest of the wyter, the wyter POW won't be used to fuel rune magic on a one-use-but-add-1-point-to-affect-five-more-community-members basis, but I suppose a similar Multispell effect might be available to provide (potentially long-lasting) sorcerous blessings to several community members at once, for reduced cost. Alternatively, the wyter might offer a boost to the manipulation volume of the sorcerer beyond personal Free INT. In that way a minimally competent sorcerer (INT 14 or 15) might be able to produce fairly hefty spells without inscribing. That boost might be similar to that from a live crystal, and might cost the wyter MP or more.

Orthodox Malkioni worship services allow the sorcerers to "tap" into the stream of magic points offered in veneration of the Invisible God (or whichever highest entity is involved in the rite).

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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Personally, I suspect that in non-henotheist (henotheist in the wider sense of Malkionism by way of theism, ie. Aeolianism, etc.) Malkionism, it's the Law of Malkion and the Urban Principles that take the place of the community/harmony magics generally associated with wyters in theist societies. I suspect Zzaburites know that the castes need to perform or act in certain ways or what have you, to preserve those laws, which reinforces the communality. Talars probably take a leading role in that, too, albeit less as "choreographers" (like Zzaburites) and more as main actors/prima donnas, as it were. If that makes any sense whatsoever. 

EDIT: This is pure headcanon, btw. I just think it's a tad weird to make the presence and sustaining of a theistic being an obligate for a Malkioni society to function. I'm not saying that various Malkioni societies (like the Aeolians or the first age Seshnelans for example) don't do it.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

 This is pure headcanon, btw. I just think it's a tad weird to make the presence and sustaining of a theistic being an obligate for a Malkioni society to function. I'm not saying that various Malkioni societies (like the Aeolians or the first age Seshnelans for example) don't do it.

I don't think either sorcerous or animist societies would have a theistic being as their guardian, but would have a being of their own type. 

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1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Personally, I suspect that in non-henotheist (henotheist in the wider sense of Malkionism by way of theism, ie. Aeolianism, etc.) Malkionism, it's the Law of Malkion and the Urban Principles that take the place of the community/harmony magics generally associated with wyters in theist societies. I suspect Zzaburites know that the castes need to perform or act in certain ways or what have you, to preserve those laws, which reinforces the communality. Talars probably take a leading role in that, too, albeit less as "choreographers" (like Zzaburites) and more as main actors/prima donnas, as it were. If that makes any sense whatsoever. 

EDIT: This is pure headcanon, btw. I just think it's a tad weird to make the presence and sustaining of a theistic being an obligate for a Malkioni society to function. I'm not saying that various Malkioni societies (like the Aeolians or the first age Seshnelans for example) don't do it.

Given some wyters are "artificial psychic constructs" (RQ:G 286), I'd see Malkioni having no problems supporting such a thing. A wyter doesn't necessarily have to have theistic trappings.

Hsunchen societies will have them as well, local genius loci or ancestors being obvious options.

And even third age Seshnela is far from as non-henotheistic as their wizards would like, the warrior societies and likely the worker guilds as well would be easily seen as "pagan" to an outsider.

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1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

Given some wyters are "artificial psychic constructs" (RQ:G 286), I'd see Malkioni having no problems supporting such a thing. A wyter doesn't necessarily have to have theistic trappings.

Hsunchen societies will have them as well, local genius loci or ancestors being obvious options.

And even third age Seshnela is far from as non-henotheistic as their wizards would like, the warrior societies and likely the worker guilds as well would be easily seen as "pagan" to an outsider.

But each of those beings actually have some relevance to the community in some way. A random summons doesn't...

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7 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Given some wyters are "artificial psychic constructs" (RQ:G 286), I'd see Malkioni having no problems supporting such a thing. A wyter doesn't necessarily have to have theistic trappings.

Hsunchen societies will have them as well, local genius loci or ancestors being obvious options.

And even third age Seshnela is far from as non-henotheistic as their wizards would like, the warrior societies and likely the worker guilds as well would be easily seen as "pagan" to an outsider.

That's fine, but as I said, personally I envision that most of what theistic or animist societies would invest in a guardian/community spirit/wyter would instead be dumped into the chain of veneration or something similar. 

A Zzaburite might use some of that to summon and binding a guardian spirit, but personally I don't see that as the same as that spirit directly being maintained by the community and directly revered. 

That being said, you are absolutely correct in that most Malkioni societies are not as orthodox as the Zzaburites would like people to believe.

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10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

But each of those beings actually have some relevance to the community in some way. A random summons doesn't...

What I suggested earlier was very specifically NOT a random summons.  It is a very precise, specific, logical summons following pathways probably marked in certain books.  But it does follow the paths of devolution, the paths of Runic interactions, etc. to reach the being best suited to be the community wyter at that point in time.

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12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

What I suggested earlier was very specifically NOT a random summons.  It is a very precise, specific, logical summons following pathways probably marked in certain books.  But it does follow the paths of devolution, the paths of Runic interactions, etc. to reach the being best suited to be the community wyter at that point in time.

Care to elaborate even more? On the spirit itself, not the mechanism.

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