Question about Allied Spirits in combat

[Gallowglass]

My players are about to go up against a Rune Lord of Bagog (tomorrow night). I'm now realizing that there are some things about allied spirits I don't get, and I want to make sure I'm solid on the rules so I don't make the fight too unbalanced. 

1. An allied spirit has access to all the Rune Lord's spells, and vice versa. Does this mean that the Rune Lord and spirit could cast Rune spells together on strike rank 1? So, for example, on the first strike rank, the Rune Lord and allied spirit could both cast Carapace on themselves? 
2. The allied spirit I designed inhabits the body of a large (dog-sized) scorpion. If the scorpion body is destroyed, can the spirit then act as a normal, disembodied spirit? Could it then cast spells or initiate spirit combat? 

Sorry if these questions have been asked before, I couldn't find any specific answers in my searching. 

[Joerg]

You seem to be confident that your players aren't going to read this, @Gallowglass

Leaving the scorpion might be easier if the allied spirit is not bound into it but dominantly possessing it. In that case the allied spirit would be able to use up the body, then leave at the time of its demise and attack in spirit combat. Might be a nasty surprise.

Edited March 29, 2020 by Joerg

[Akhôrahil]

1. Yes; yes.
2. Not by the rules as written, but nothing stops you from running it that way.

[Gallowglass]

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

You seem to be confident that your players aren't going to read this, @Gallowglass

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Leaving the scorpion might be easier if the allied spirit is not bound into it but dominantly possessing it. In that case the allied spirit would be able to use up the body, then leave at the time of its demise and attack in spirit combat. Might be a nasty surprise.

 

They know roughly what they’re up against. 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Gallowglass

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

An allied spirit has access to all the Rune Lord's spells, and vice versa. Does this mean that the Rune Lord and spirit could cast Rune spells together on strike rank 1?

As long as they weren't the same rune and have enough RPs themselves, as they would both have to use the Rune Lord's rune casting ability (the allied spirit has no runes of its own). I'd have no problem with SR1 then SR2.

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

So, for example, on the first strike rank, the Rune Lord and allied spirit could both cast Carapace on themselves?

I'd have no problem with SR1 then SR2.

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

1. The allied spirit I designed inhabits the body of a large (dog-sized) scorpion. If the scorpion body is destroyed, can the spirit then act as a normal, disembodied spirit? Could it then cast spells or initiate spirit combat?

Allied spirits inhabit an object or animal (so it's an embodied spirit). That is the allied spirit. If the animal is killed or the physical object is broken the spirit returns to where it came from. It doesn't exist outside of its animal/object. If your allied spirit knows discorporate, it can leave its "home" for the duration of the spell, but at the end it become embodied again. It's not a fetch.

You need to look after your allied spirit, it's not invincible.

[Gallowglass]

13 minutes ago, David Scott said:

As long as they weren't the same rune and have enough RPs themselves, as they would both have to use the Rune Lord's rune casting ability (the allied spirit has no runes of its own). I'd have no problem with SR1 then SR2

If the spirit had no RP of its own, couldn’t it draw on the Rune Lord’s pool?

[David Scott]

2 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

If the spirit had no RP of its own, couldn’t it draw on the Rune Lord’s pool?

Yes. But using the RL's rune% means that they are casting twice in the same SR.

[Akhôrahil]

29 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

If the spirit had no RP of its own, couldn’t it draw on the Rune Lord’s pool?

Also, an Allied Spirit is an initiate of the rune master's cult, so it will have at least one RP.

[PhilHibbs]

30 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Yes. But using the RL's rune% means that they are casting twice in the same SR.

So? SR is not time, and in any case I don't see why the Rune rating would become "locked out" while casting, preventing the Allied Spirit from casting with the same rating.

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

Does this mean that the Rune Lord and spirit could cast Rune spells together on strike rank 1?

Yes, that is one of the advantages of having an allied spirit.

6 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

So, for example, on the first strike rank, the Rune Lord and allied spirit could both cast Carapace on themselves? 

Yes.

6 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

The allied spirit I designed inhabits the body of a large (dog-sized) scorpion. If the scorpion body is destroyed, can the spirit then act as a normal, disembodied spirit? Could it then cast spells or initiate spirit combat? 

As a GM, I would say Yes, as the allied spirit is bound to the Rune Lord or Priest, so stays with them after the familiar is killed. 

David doesn't agree, but what does he know? He only works for Chaosium!

I would say that if you want it to work that way in your game then let it work that way.

[Lordabdul]

21 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Yes, that is one of the advantages of having an allied spirit.

I think another advantage is that, if you wish to, you can start engaging in melee right away while the opponent is still preparing their spells, and have the allied spirit cast any needed spell (defensive or offensive) at the same time you bash people's heads and sever a few limbs.

21 minutes ago, soltakss said:

As a GM, I would say Yes, as the allied spirit is bound to the Rune Lord or Priest, so stays with them after the familiar is killed. 

David doesn't agree, but what does he know? He only works for Chaosium!

I was also surprised about the previous answers about this. But I guess that RQG says "Allied spirits are spirits sent by the deity to inhabit animals or sacred cult objects", which seems to indicate that the spirit always comes inside an object or animal, which, I guess, implies that if that animal or object is killed/destroyed, the spirit goes back to the deity. The RQG wording is weird (they say "If an allied spirit is killed or destroyed..." instead of "If the inhabiting animal or object is killed or destroyed..."), but it does kinda feel like that's what they really mean. But I think, for MGF's sake, that it's totally fine to have the spirit become disembodied, and then the Rune Lord has to go through a costly ceremony to re-bind the spirit to a new animal or object (not even counting the cost of finding the "proper" animal/object in the first place, which might be an adventure of its own).

[French Desperate WindChild]

I follow the rules with, maybe this option :

allied spirit inhabit animals or sacred cult object

human spirit inhabit human body

 

when a human body is killed, his spirit goes to the death path and if succeed joins his/her god/dess

when an allied spirit's body is killed / destroy, it joins its god/dess (it is already judged)

But as a human spirit can stay (for very good, or very bad reason) near the  body (ghost, etc..) so does an allied spirit.

From my perspective only for a very very good / bad reason (so the GM decides).

Example : to burn all its energy to save the human (but the spirit is destroyed after that) or because its corrputed /captured by an ennemy, etc..

In all cases, not just a spell  to come back : human body can be resurrected only before the death judgement (1 week) but it is not possible for the already judged spirit

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by French Desperate WindChild

[soltakss]

Naimless, I think, had a discorporate Allied Spirit in RQ2. It could sense the presence of other spirits. 

We played that if an allied spirit lost its host then it would stay around, discorporate, waiting for a new host. It doesn't travel the Path of the Dead as it is not strictly alive.

[PhilHibbs]

I always thought that an allied spirit's physical form being destroyed was a big deal. And I don't recall "dominant possession" being a common allied spirit power.

[Gallowglass]

Update: I ran the big battle last night. It was definitely one of the tougher encounters I have run for my players, but they still pretty much mopped the floor with the Scorpion Men. Turns out a shaman with access to 30+ MP, and a Storm Bull berserker who can regularly deal 20 damage in a single blow are VERY EFFECTIVE at killing things. Still, I think the sheer number of enemies (10 against 4), and the presence of powerful enemy magic was enough to scare them a little. 

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

, and a Storm Bull berserker who can regularly deal 20 damage in a single blow are VERY EFFECTIVE at killing things.

Really??? That totally surprises me! 😋

[Dissolv]

It does me actually.  Usually Scorpion men are very effective in slowing down the big hitters just because of the sheer number of legs!  They are notorious for it in my parts.

[Gallowglass]

1 hour ago, Dissolv said:

 

It does me actually.  Usually Scorpion men are very effective in slowing down the big hitters just because of the sheer number of legs!  They are notorious for it in my parts.

 

There was egregious use of aimed blows. 

[Dissolv]

14 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

2 hours ago, Dissolv said:

 

It does me actually.  Usually Scorpion men are very effective in slowing down the big hitters just because of the sheer number of legs!  They are notorious for it in my parts.

 

There was egregious use of aimed blows. 

 

My take is that your players are ready for "next level" challenges -- they are clearly pro's!

[Gallowglass]

6 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

My take is that your players are ready for "next level" challenges -- they are clearly pro's!

Yeah honestly I had trouble keeping up with them, combat in Runequest is hard on the GM too. This was the end of our campaign, but when I return to Glorantha next, I’ll hopefully be ready for their hijinks.

[Peltast]

Hi All

Just thinking about combat challengies for players. 

Wouldn't a challenge be, rather than super tough oppnents, lots of opponents or skirmishers?  For example, 40 sling armed trollkin - that would be about 80 incoming slingshots a round, or a dozen or so nonad mounted archers - always able to move away from the party to stay out of melee range and patient enough to wait for defensive spells to time out?

[Gallowglass]

3 hours ago, Peltast said:

Wouldn't a challenge be, rather than super tough oppnents, lots of opponents or skirmishers?  For example, 40 sling armed trollkin - that would be about 80 incoming slingshots a round, or a dozen or so nonad mounted archers - always able to move away from the party to stay out of melee range and patient enough to wait for defensive spells to time out?

Your topic probably deserves its own thread. But yes, I agree that sounds like a player's worst nightmare. And a GM's actually, because running combat with more than 12 combatants makes my head explode. 

I would say that over the course of the campaign, the battles that really made my players sweat had some combination of the following-

• Lots of ranged combat.
• Ambushes in which they faced enemies that had already cast protective spells
• Enemies that could clearly sever or crush body parts in a single blow, like Humakti or great trolls. 

All of our so called "boss fights" were kind of a let-down (for me anyway) because the PC's usually came prepared and tried to set up their own ambushes, and then really focused their attacks on the big bad before he could do any serious harm. The Bagog Rune Lord only got to fire off a few protective spells before he went down in the 2nd round. 

[PhilHibbs]

19 hours ago, Dissolv said:

It does me actually.  Usually Scorpion men are very effective in slowing down the big hitters just because of the sheer number of legs!  They are notorious for it in my parts.

Scorpion men are a doddle. Parry their weapon with a shield, and their stinger with a sword. Once the stinger is gone, you are on an even footing.

[Akhôrahil]

47 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Scorpion men are a doddle. Parry their weapon with a shield, and their stinger with a sword. Once the stinger is gone, you are on an even footing.

Carapace is hella nasty if you're trying to bring them down with weapons, though. Natural Armor + Carapace + Armor is a lot.

My PCs spammed Thunderbolt, which is definitely cheating! 🙂

Edited April 2, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, Peltast said:

Wouldn't a challenge be, rather than super tough oppnents, lots of opponents or skirmishers?  For example, 40 sling armed trollkin - that would be about 80 incoming slingshots a round, or a dozen or so nonad mounted archers - always able to move away from the party to stay out of melee range and patient enough to wait for defensive spells to time out?

Yes, it is a challenge. It is also incredibly boring to roll, especially when the PCs are wearing reasonable armour. Trollkin using slings doing 1D8 damage need to roll an 8 to get through good armour, unless they critical or impale.I normally hate rolling D100 and damage at the same time, but with 20 Trollkin slinging, I would roll 1D20 and Damage at the same time and just ignore low normal hits. We normally divide targets up according to numbers, so 5 PCs and 20 Trollkin means 4 attacks on each per go, probably twice per round.

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Scorpion men are a doddle. Parry their weapon with a shield, and their stinger with a sword. Once the stinger is gone, you are on an even footing.

Assuming you make those parries. Failing to parry might be quite bad. If it realises that you are not attacking, it might attack with another attack and forgo its own parry, so you have 3 attacks to counter.