Does the Dark Walk spell make you invisible to spells and Darksense too?

[Brootse]

If a character has cast the Dark Walk spell, can he be seen with eg. Second Sight, Soulsight, Detect Enemies or Detect Life?

And how about Darksense skill?

Edited March 30, 2020 by Brootse

[soltakss]

23 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Second Sight

Only if they could see him anyway. it seems mean to allow Second Sight to negate Darkwalk and Invisibility.

24 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Soulsight

Ditto for Soulsight. if they can see him then Soulsight works, if not then it doesn't.

24 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Detect Enemies

Yes, this should work. We used to use Storm Khan mastery of Sense Chaos to do the Detect Chaos, so all the Invisible Broos lit up to the Storm Bulls.

25 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Detect Life

Yes, if they are alive, no if they are dead, undead or merely animated.

25 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Darksense

I have always played that Darkwalk renders you invisible to Darksense, so that trolls can use it as Invisibility.

[Russ Massey]

In the Sandals of Darkness heroquest Orlanth steals the Sandals from Kyger Litor and uses them to escape, implying that they work okay against troll senses.

[soltakss]

5 minutes ago, Russ Massey said:

In the Sandals of Darkness heroquest Orlanth steals the Sandals from Kyger Litor and uses them to escape, implying that they work okay against troll senses.

Well, duh! That's duh to me for not realising this sooner.

[Ian Absentia]

20 minutes ago, soltakss said:

...so all the Invisible Broos lit up to the Storm Bulls.

Is this one of those weird in-jokes that crop up in Gloranthan circles from time to time?

!i!

[Brootse]

11 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Is this one of those weird in-jokes that crop up in Gloranthan circles from time to time?

!i!

In my campaign the PCs made a pilgrimage to the Block and helped Storm Bull worshippers hunt a white Allosaurus Broo that could use Predator type camouflage. It also threw large stones.

[Ian Absentia]

An allosaurus broo doubtless has large stones.  If I had 'em, I'd throw 'em around, too.

!i!

[gochie]

You would see someone "dark walking" with any vision that works in the dark, including dark sense. 

Invisibility on the other hand, keeps anyone's attention away, which means any sense or sight would not let someone "see" you. I should note that this was confirmed in the official core questions thread. 

[soltakss]

12 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Is this one of those weird in-jokes that crop up in Gloranthan circles from time to time?

One of the Chaos Features was "invisible until attacks".

We used to have set pieces where we could have thirty or forty NPCs fighting, so the GM would carefully put the figures onto the table, looking at a reference sheet, then he's look again, sigh and take three or four off, as they were invisible.

[Brootse]

4 hours ago, gochie said:

You would see someone "dark walking" with any vision that works in the dark, including dark sense. 

Invisibility on the other hand, keeps anyone's attention away, which means any sense or sight would not let someone "see" you. I should note that this was confirmed in the official core questions thread. 

The spell's description says that it "allows the user to be totally invisible and soundless", which would imply that no senses would work, and like Russ Massey posted earlier, Orlanth could hide from trolls with it. Thanks for reminding me that the invisibility spell had been discussed in the official thread. I had some really vague recollection that Second Sight shouldn't work when I made the ruling during our last game.

[Akhôrahil]

35 minutes ago, Brootse said:

The spell's description says that it "allows the user to be totally invisible and soundless", which would imply that no senses would work, and like Russ Massey posted earlier, Orlanth could hide from trolls with it. Thanks for reminding me that the invisibility spell had been discussed in the official thread. I had some really vague recollection that Second Sight shouldn't work when I made the ruling during our last game.

I'm thinking smell would still work. Perhaps the "soundless" bit can be extended to work against Troll Darksense (which is sonar, correct?).

[Brootse]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm thinking smell would still work. Perhaps the "soundless" bit can be extended to work against Troll Darksense (which is sonar, correct?).

Good point regarding the smell! Iirc the darksense isn't wholly sonar-based.

[dumuzid]

17 hours ago, soltakss said:

I have always played that Darkwalk renders you invisible to Darksense, so that trolls can use it as Invisibility.

I figured this was implicit in the way Darkwalk makes the user soundless.  If something doesn't give off sound, it can't return an echo in Darksense.  To perceive something under Darkwalk a troll would have to try to perceive the minute absences of return on other substances caused by their contact with the dark-walker: the places where the 'sandals' touch the earth and mute all sound, to use the myth.

[gochie]

3 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

I figured this was implicit in the way Darkwalk makes the user soundless.  If something doesn't give off sound, it can't return an echo in Darksense.  To perceive something under Darkwalk a troll would have to try to perceive the minute absences of return on other substances caused by their contact with the dark-walker: the places where the 'sandals' touch the earth and mute all sound, to use the myth.

Depends if sound just goes through the person or if it's absorbed by the person. 

To a troll, the second would look like a man-shaped hole, while the first would be invisible 😊

[gochie]

4 hours ago, Brootse said:

The spell's description says that it "allows the user to be totally invisible and soundless", which would imply that no senses would work, and like Russ Massey posted earlier, Orlanth could hide from trolls with it. Thanks for reminding me that the invisibility spell had been discussed in the official thread. I had some really vague recollection that Second Sight shouldn't work when I made the ruling during our last game.

Invisible: unable to be seen; not visible to the eye.

Easily argued that normal vision is the only sense affected by anything "invisible". The sound bit might make someone invisible to Troll, depending on how it works.

I always just thought of it as the shadow immediately around the caster absorbs any outgoing sound, which I guess would also absorb any echo bouncing off the caster. In this case, a troll would see a random man-shaped hole where there should not be--unless the caster is in an open space where the background is too far for troll sense to echo off of, then the Darkwalker would be truly invisible to the troll.

Edited March 31, 2020 by gochie

[kirinyaga]

Remember dark sense is sonar like hu-metal is bronze. It's only the closest earthen word to describe it.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, gochie said:

I always just thought of it as the shadow immediately around the caster absorbs any outgoing sound, which I guess would also absorb any echo bouncing off the caster. In this case, a troll would see a random man-shaped hole where there should not be--unless the caster is in an open space where the background is too far for troll sense to echo off of, then the Darkwalker would be truly invisible to the troll.

If you want to, you could argue that it works like radar stealth - you just don't reflect the sound back, so you don't show up.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, dumuzid said:

I figured this was implicit in the way Darkwalk makes the user soundless.  If something doesn't give off sound, it can't return an echo in Darksense. 

Darksense doesn't use sound as in pressure waves in the air, it uses oscillations in the medium Darkness. Some of the sharp and well-defined wave patterns inside the oscillating Darkness may cause a weaker sound echo, but per se Darksense has nothing to do with hearing. A troll could be deafened but would still be able to darksense well, IMO.

Darkwalk makes it impossible to detect a person using it via Darksense, which I take to mean that there is no jamming of Darksense (which could be easily located) but rather a transparency to that sense. The sound muffling effect might be similar to the sound generation that accompanies the use of Darksense.