Adventures for shaman

[Darius West]

11 minutes ago, Psullie said:

P369 of RQG explicitly states that you can hit spirit with enchanted material weapons using the relevant skill. But the attack is not parried or dodged but an opposed roll v's the attacking spirits Spirit Combat (yes this is a contradiction of the bolded statement on P143). The spirit then fights back on SR12 with a Spirit Combat v's Spirit Combat opposed roll. 

Fair enough, Truesword or enchanted metals will work, to a degree, but bladesharp and other weapon enhancing spells will have no effect.  It specifically says so.  I would imagine that most spirits would see some value in dispelling the truesword if they have the ability to do so.

[Psullie]

25 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I would imagine that most spirits would see some value in dispelling the truesword if they have the ability to do so.

Absolutely, given that Rune Magic is, by its nature obvious, it would be an clear target for a 2 Point Dispel Magic; and having spirit magic is something spirits are known for

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I don't think that either sword trance or truesword can actually hit a disembodied spirit in a fight for dominant possession as material swords don't affect ghosts. 

It's explicit that this works.

I personally don't like it it - or rather, it's great that it works on ghosts for Humakti, but it means anyone with a little magic can cut spirits. 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

9 hours ago, Psullie said:

yes this is a contradiction of the bolded statement on P143

Are you talking about the bolded statement on p142? That opposed rolls are not used to resolve melee combat?  I don't think it contradicts it... I think it was meant to say that you don't resolve an entire combat scene with one opposed roll (like HeroQuest does), and instead you do a round by round thing with damage tracking and all that stuff. This is in comparison with other scenes like, say, a cooking competition, where you do it entirely with just one opposed roll (or a couple... but not a round-by-round thing).

I could totally be wrong because it definitely isn't 100% clear in the rules, but I would just follow the usual rules for physical combat ("attack is resolved normally"), similar to Attack vs Dodge/Parry, but using Attack vs Spirit Combat skill, and applying special/critical damage appropriately as per the table on p199:

• Special/critical success damage for spirits are listed on p368
• Special damage from a magic-enhanced sword doesn't change anything AFAICT since magical modifiers are only applied once, and when fighting a spirit that's all you get. Critical damage gets you max special damage and armour bypass.
• Fumbles are rolled or the Spirit Combat fumble table instead of the normal combat table.

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I personally don't like it it - or rather, it's great that it works on ghosts for Humakti, but it means anyone with a little magic can cut spirits. 

I think that non-combat PCs can take part in Spirit Combat (by spending a bunch of points on magic) to avoid the Netrunner problem of one player doing fun stuff while everybody else waits. Sure, you can keep the others busy while they protect the shaman/netrunner/whatever from outside forces, but sometimes the GM just can't justify that in a scene -- and besides, that still splits the party in 2 different scenes. It could get tweaked one way or other, but I think it comes from a sound game design decision.

[Psullie]

18 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Are you talking about the bolded statement on p142?

Oops, yes. 

However, Opposed contests are different from melee combat in that it's the level of success - not the attack/parry table. If both get the same level of success then "the situation is temporarily unresolved [...] Both parties do spirit combat damage to the other." so spirits could actually do damage. As they would also get their own Spirit Attack at the end of the round, attacking a spirit with a weapon essentially gives it a second attack, albeit your melee attack is likely better then your Spirit Combat skill. 

I agree though that it is not clear. It would really of benefited from an example.

Edited April 18, 2020 by Psullie

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Psullie said:

I agree though that it is not clear. It would really of benefited from an example.

Yeah. I'm still not sure what the "attack is resolved normally" refers to... I understand it as "resolved normally as a melee attack" but it sounds like you understand it as "resolved normally as a Spirit Combat exchange".

[Kloster]

13 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah. I'm still not sure what the "attack is resolved normally" refers to... I understand it as "resolved normally as a melee attack" but it sounds like you understand it as "resolved normally as a Spirit Combat exchange".

As you, I have understood as 'being resolved as a normal melee  attack, and parried with the spirit combat skill', the normal spirit combat phase being done at SR12.

[Darius West]

On 4/18/2020 at 4:36 AM, Akhôrahil said:

It's explicit that this works.

I personally don't like it it - or rather, it's great that it works on ghosts for Humakti, but it means anyone with a little magic can cut spirits. 

Truesword explicitly works, but spirit magic like bladesharp or fireblade explicity doesn't, now I have re-read the rules.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Truesword explicitly works, but spirit magic like bladesharp or fireblade explicity doesn't, now I have re-read the rules.

Yes, you're right, sorry - confused it with how you damage Telmori and the like (where you do inflict for instance the amount of Bladesharp).

(Isn't it a little odd that these two systems are almost, but not quite, identical?)

Edited April 20, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

(Isn't it a little odd that these two systems are almost, but not quite, identical?)

I would say not. It is fine they are different, even a little. It is not in the rules but :

Truesword is based on death. If I touched something with death it is to make it leaving the world of the livings. So ok for telmori and visible spirit in mundane world

-> then a question, what happens if I touch a stone with truesword ? is there any bonus ?

Bladesharp is based on magic to make damage on body. If I touched "no - body"  with bladesharp , I do no damage. So ok for telmori but ko for spirit

that's my explanation of the rule difference, nothing official

 

 

[Darius West]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yes, you're right, sorry - confused it with how you damage Telmori and the like (where you do inflict for instance the amount of Bladesharp).

(Isn't it a little odd that these two systems are almost, but not quite, identical?)

LOL, no probs. I got it wrong too after all.  It's hard to remember. 

While I can see how truesword could work... sort of... to hit spirits, it isn't a rule I like tbh.  I mean, from where I stand, Truesword is about sending the living into the land of the dead.  The notion that it destroys spirits (other than ghosts and revenants who, lets face it, are breaking Humakt's rules), doesn't sit well with me.   It seems unnecessarily OP.

[Lordabdul]

19 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

that's my explanation of the rule difference, nothing official

I think there's a more straightforward explanation: Gods can fight spirits, so Rune Magic hurts spirits. Spirit magic is powered by the spirit world, so that doesn't hurt the inhabitants of that world.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I think there's a more straightforward explanation: Gods can fight spirits, so Rune Magic hurts spirits. Spirit magic is powered by the spirit world, so that doesn't hurt the inhabitants of that world.

Human cannot hurts superman without using krypton material (in fact I don't know if there is other way to hurt super redmoon man, but that is the idea,  argrath batman did it, you can use the power of an entity's world to hurt this entity)

 

Spirits can fight other spirits.
Spirit power  (like shaman bonus) can make more damages to spirit.

A lot of spirit spells in mundane world impact spirits (I agree I don't remember any "damage" spell dedicated to boost spirit damage in spirit combat)

I'm not sure there is a so big difference between gods and spirits. More a question of choice. Yinkin is considered (transformed ?) as a god because he fought with storm tribe against other animal "masters" considered as spirits.

Maybe also a question of worship => you worship an entity (even spirit) you obtain the right from your god to use rune magic.

you negotiate /learn from an entity => spirit spell (well.. not sure now , I have still concept of previous runequest, when a spirit "teaches" the spell by possessing the person) I don't know how RQG explains the teach of spirit spell ? just a "gift" during the ritual ceremony ?

 

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I think there's a more straightforward explanation: Gods can fight spirits, so Rune Magic hurts spirits. Spirit magic is powered by the spirit world, so that doesn't hurt the inhabitants of that world.

Surely spirits can also fight spirits?

[Lordabdul]

Hey people, I didn't say it made sense I just said it was more straightforward. Like, as a mnemonic way to remember the rule. If it was me, I would have just indeed used the same rules as for Telmori (i.e. all magic damage applies).

Edited April 21, 2020 by lordabdul

[10baseT]

In my experience, the whole implementation of attacking a spirit with bladesharp/other-magic-melee weapon is a bit too meta for me, in most cases, but hear me out.

For those spirits with INT, they're not dumb (assume a decent INT) and most likely have been in combat before. So they engage in spirit combat. How do you hit it with your bladesharped sword?

I ask the players what they're doing instead of them just saying i cast bladesharp and attack. I'll ask them, you don't see anything so who or how are you attacking the spirit you think is attacking your friend? That usually generates silence. Do they just lay their sword against the person engaged in spirit combat? If yes, okay, which body part. I'll probably say, you don't notice anything happening on that attack (Why would the spirit be sticking out of that body part? But it could). This is just a general  description of how mine go. I need to hear something substantial and pretty good.

Edited April 21, 2020 by 10baseT

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, 10baseT said:

I'll ask them, you don't see anything so who or how are you attacking the spirit you think is attacking your friend? 

p. 366: "If a spirit wishes to attack a corporeal being, the spirit
makes itself visible in the Middle World the melee round
prior to its first attack."

[10baseT]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

p. 366: "If a spirit wishes to attack a corporeal being, the spirit
makes itself visible in the Middle World the melee round
prior to its first attack."

Totally understood. But why can't a spirit surprise attack? I mean if i'm going to ambush someone, it will be from the rear or from the dark, etc... or from above? I had a party crossing a wooden bridge in a marsh, the spirit attacked from under it (manifested below, then attacked). The PCs never saw it. In same said marsh, another spirit appeared under the water, then attacked. During same trek, another spirit (this was the first attack actually) simply appeared behind them, and attacked... you're not going to hear a spirit manifest. Of course there could be environmental tell tales, but there wasn't in this case. I guess what i'm saying is, why can't a spirit attacked intelligently you know? Why would i purposely appear where i can be seen right before i attack, when i dont have to. I don't do it just to do it, but if i have a spirit with INT, whose been around the block,... then i try and play them that way. More in character for them for lack of better words.

Edited April 22, 2020 by 10baseT

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, 10baseT said:

Totally understood. But why can't a spirit surprise attack? I mean if i'm going to ambush someone, it will be from the rear or from the dark, etc... or from above? I had a party crossing a wooden bridge in a marsh, the spirit attacked from under it (manifested below, then attacked). The PCs never saw it. In same said marsh, another spirit appeared under the water, then attacked. During same trek, another spirit (this was the first attack actually) simply appeared behind them, and attacked... you're not going to hear a spirit manifest. Of course there could be environmental tell tales, but there wasn't in this case. I guess what i'm saying is, why can't a spirit attacked intelligently you know? Why would i purposely appear where i can be seen right before i attack, when i dont have to. I don't do it just to do it, but if i have a spirit with INT, whose been around the block,... then i try and play them that way. More in character for them for lack of better words.

I think it might be able to get a surprise round in some cases (not against shamans, though), but I read your post as indicating that they cannot be attacked and are either invisible or already inside a victim? That's not the case according to the rulebook. They are an immaterial, visible form that you can hit for effect.

[Dissolv]

The vast majority of posts in this thread are about fighting spirits.  This is certainly an adventure activity, but it should be one that a Humakti is good at.

Adventures where shamans have major advantages or perhaps even be indispensable would involve placating, befriending, rescuing, or discovering spirits.  

These are activities where a Humakti might assist, but wouldn't be of primary importance.  He would be able to act as a heavy and clear away hostile opposition, like always.  But spirit communication is nearly the sole realm of the shaman.  Try to focus on adventures that have spirits as critical elements of the plot, but not as monsters to overcome.

More Orpheus, less Hercules.

[10baseT]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think it might be able to get a surprise round in some cases (not against shamans, though), but I read your post as indicating that they cannot be attacked and are either invisible or already inside a victim? That's not the case according to the rulebook. They are an immaterial, visible form that you can hit for effect.

I hear ya, and thank you for the good conversation. I did allude to a spirit being inside... and what i mean is, it's all situational. I think spirits can vary in SIZ and I base it on how i envision the spirit and the encounter. A wraith being humanoid in SIZ and can easily seen if in spirit combat or a disease spirit in animal form of a flea when it manifest (i got that idea from fleas carrying the plague). Anyway, said flea is simply not going to be seen (in my case). I'm attacking you and you simply can't see me because of my SIZ or i am inside you 'cause i'm a spirit and i can do that and i'm so small of a spirit you engulf me. Now i admit, i'm being very specific, but in general that's what i'm referring to. I try and craft my spirits in line with the encounter, their background, and their contribution to the scenario. Taking that a step further, when my players say they cast bladesharp and attack, that's not good enough for me. I'll typically want more than that.

[Scotty]

On 4/18/2020 at 10:07 PM, lordabdul said:

Yeah. I'm still not sure what the "attack is resolved normally" refers to... I understand it as "resolved normally as a melee attack" but it sounds like you understand it as "resolved normally as a Spirit Combat exchange".

On 4/19/2020 at 11:13 AM, Kloster said:

As you, I have understood as 'being resolved as a normal melee  attack, and parried with the spirit combat skill', the normal spirit combat phase being done at SR12.

 

[Lordabdul]

Thanks @Scotty! So it looks like @Psullie was correct!

[Thaz]

Go read the Munkin thread elements on Shaman. Then read the Multi Spell description. Shamen (and Humakti) are rather powerful. 

[Akhôrahil]

37 minutes ago, Thaz said:

Go read the Munkin thread elements on Shaman. Then read the Multi Spell description. Shamen (and Humakti) are rather powerful. 

Shamans are incredibly powerful. Just a Sleep spell each turn that will be basically irresistible and a permanent Protection 20 or something is super good, and that’s just scratching the surface.

Edited May 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil