Kingdom of Beasts (Dawn Age Fronela)

[metcalph]

The Incompletes in the FS map is a technical term that was used in the Entekosiad.  To wit, normals having six parts but sorcerers and chaotic having fewer. 

Edited May 5, 2020 by metcalph

[scott-martin]

22 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Incompletes in the FS map is a technical term that was used in the Entekosiad.  To wit, normals having six parts but sorcerers and chaotic having fewer. 

Thanks. The context is especially great because it preserves something like a directional war narrative from the theistic perspective . . . and then enough of that narrative persists into the court of the Magnificent to work its way into the standard vocabulary where other concepts get suppressed. 

The tale of how Incompletes assaulted the world from the glacier side is also evocative.

[Mirza]

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Vadrudi are likely to have goat associations, though. Possibly big goats, e.g. musk oxen. But then the sheep association of the eastern Orlanthi may be as out of place.

Aren't goats associated with Ragnaglar, and Thed? I thought that's why they're considered unclean, and hated by the Orlanthi as they are the animal totem of two of the Unholy Trio.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Mirza

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Mirza said:

Aren't goats associated with Ragnaglar, and Thed? I thought that's why they're considered unclean, and hated by the Orlanthi as they are the animal totem of two of the Unholy Trio.

At times it is hard to tell Vadrus and Ragnaglar apart.

The original Yggite Wolf Pirates brought shaggy goats to Threestep Isles...

[Joerg]

I accidentally posted this reply in Jeff's lore questions, thinking that Martin's question was asked here.

 

As far as I am concerned, Gonn Orta only altered the pass, and it existed already before his visit. If he went there rather than to the main entrance at the Brass Citadel, he may have destroyed earlier surface structures of the Nidan decamony there, possibly opening new accesses to the pass, possibly destroying old ones.

Gonn Orta and his army of giants passed through Dara Happa in 561, according to the Fortunate Succession p.26:

Quote

39. Sothenik 
111,539 to 111,561 
...

At  the  end  of  his  reign  an  army  of  40  Hecolanti traveled westward from Jord. Many folk marveled at them, but they harmed no one, and no one harmed them.  
The  Emperor  claimed  that  he  saw  a  chance  for adventure when he saw them. He called ten companions to himself, each got the blessing of his elders and his temple, and they set off to aid the giants in their quest, whatever it was. 
They rode off with the giants, and they were not heard from  again.  no  one  knows  the  manner  of  their  death, though all oracles and seers agreed he and his companions were killed.

His successor Helemshal ascended to the Dara Happan throne in 562, which suggests that Gonn Orta arrived at the gates of Nida in 561.

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

At times it is hard to tell Vadrus and Ragnaglar apart.

The original Yggite Wolf Pirates brought shaggy goats to Threestep Isles...

Am I making something up, or has Vadrus been associated with Mastodons too? 

Ragnaglar also seems to have some associations with antlered animals, even if apochryphal, as per his Gods War miniature and a certain plotline in Six Ages.

[Gallowglass]

19 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Am I making something up, or has Vadrus been associated with Mastodons too? 

 

I think it was Wooly Rhinos. But there is an illustration in the Sourcebook of a mammoth tusk harpoon showing all the gods Vadrus had killed.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Am I making something up, or has Vadrus been associated with Mastodons too? 

 

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

I think it was Wooly Rhinos. But there is an illustration in the Sourcebook of a mammoth tusk harpoon showing all the gods Vadrus had killed.

This is really good as we chase the transitions between beast and storm up there. Vadrus as unreconstructed "northern Orlanth" (separate from our southern friend or the western ram god who becomes High Storm for awhile) as lord of the dance  . . . a hunter and psychopomp, someone who sometimes functions a little like Waha. King of beasts and end of beasts incorporating totemic consciousness into a new system.

Not a Serpent Beast system. A separate solution to the existential problems. A different covenant or survivor pact of sorts that then develops within time. Storm totems. Maybe an entire storm ecology where now only the storm bull and occasional storm ram, storm tiger and so on persist elsewhere. People like the Telmorites and early Ygg would have interacted with that ecology, making their various historical choices. 

Of course the Bear played a huge role, it got cold up there in the ice age. 

[Brootse]

Is the Ozarcas named after the Ozarks?

[scott-martin]

1 minute ago, Brootse said:

Is the Ozarcas named after the Ozarks?

I love it. Now that you mention it, there is a hillbilly vibe to that part of the world with its clean living and notorious tattoo parlors.

[Gallowglass]

2 minutes ago, Brootse said:

 

Is the Ozarcas named after the Ozarks?

 

I think it’s named after Zarkos. The same map in the Guide pdf has it named “Ozarkos.” They’re a whole different bunch of goat people, they show up in Six Ages.  

[jajagappa]

54 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Is the Ozarcas named after the Ozarks?

It comes from the Arcos River.  The region around that in the Golden Age was called Zarkos (GRoY p.8 - it is the "Land of Serenity").

My assumption for Ozarcos is that it means something like "west of the Arcos" or "western Zarkos".

The current lands in that area, Garsting and Jarst, also derive their names from Arcos/Zarkos.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

It comes from the Arcos River.  The region around that in the Golden Age was called Zarkos (GRoY p.8 - it is the "Land of Serenity").

My assumption for Ozarcos is that it means something like "west of the Arcos" or "western Zarkos".

The current lands in that area, Garsting and Jarst, also derive their names from Arcos/Zarkos.

I like those words being etymologyically tied together (dunno, I just think etymological bonds are neat).

 

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

The current lands in that area, Garsting and Jarst, also derive their names from Arcos/Zarkos.

This is really cool. Do you think the river originally took the "cha" character alien to Khordavu's Alphabet? Z is such an important phoneme in DH that I can see its attribution to the valley people (who might still prefer G/J/Zh to this day) becoming religiously controversial.

Also to get back to those sea elves or river people, there are occasional asides to the rivers being opposed to the emergent Lunar Way early on. Wonder if the Arcos was one of the leaders in that resistance.

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It comes from the Arcos River.  The region around that in the Golden Age was called Zarkos (GRoY p.8 - it is the "Land of Serenity").

My assumption for Ozarcos is that it means something like "west of the Arcos" or "western Zarkos".

The current lands in that area, Garsting and Jarst, also derive their names from Arcos/Zarkos.

That map would more point towards somewhere southeast, rather than the more east/northeast of the Arcos' river's lands. More like Kostaddi or Vanch.

To make things even stranger, in Six Ages there's a myth where Reladivus tames the Arcos river. Something far away from any site recommended for ancient Nivorah.

It's possibly Arcos' was originally a Nivoran term for rivers in general, and something carried on by the Starlight Ancestors to that region when they arrived at Andarkon.

Now Andarkon is a fun name, because although it could be another name related to Arcos. (And-Arkon) it does seem similar to the ancestor tongue of the Manimati, specifically with Darokon (whose ruins are found in the Yolp mountains)

This could, combined with Dugolothokon (where the gods wall lies) suggest the Manimati ruled an empire far bigger than anyone (least of all the Alkothi) might like to admit.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

To make things even stranger, in Six Ages there's a myth where Reladivus tames the Arcos river. Something far away from any site recommended for ancient Nivorah.

Some place far away from any site suggested by DARA HAPPANS, particularly Plentonius, who perhaps had other theories on their mind... 😉

[Joerg]

Speaking of Nivorah and Reladivus, the Copper Tablets (Guide p.115ff) place it in the southeast slightly north of Alkoth, on a very bendy Oslira River, and Verapur in the northeast, leaving the north for Mernita. They also place Yuthuppa (without a Planetary Son) and an inverted Ziggurat in the southwest.

 

Talking about Kargzant and the Bull people, the origin of Lendarsh are a bit weird, too. Horse warlords and bull people, right?

[scott-martin]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yuthuppa (without a Planetary Son) and an inverted Ziggurat

Nice. Yuthuppa of all cities may not be the original, but a city built on the corpse of something else and assigned a legendary name in order to shore up someone's sense of dynastic continuity. The god Yuthu is awful quiet these days.

On which note, I keep hunting the mother of all inverted ziggurats, the negative mountain of "Serenity"associated with Chalana Arroy that later filled up with water. Any leads?

Edited May 7, 2020 by scott-martin

[Tindalos]

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Some place far away from any site suggested by DARA HAPPANS, particularly Plentonius, who perhaps had other theories on their mind... 😉

Well true, you could declare the ruins of the Yellow City in the Redlands is its ruin, although that could equally by the Amber Camp, or Abgammon.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

Well true, you could declare the ruins of the Yellow City in the Redlands is its ruin, although that could equally by the Amber Camp, or Abgammon.

Or maybe its in Tork and the Mad Sultanate is camped within.  Or maybe its beneath the Elf Sea.  Or maybe just lost amidst the wilds of Garsting and Jarst.  Or maybe the dogs buried it like a bone beneath the Dog Hills....

 

[scott-martin]

6 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

maybe its in Tork

Maybe it's only a paper moon. Maybe I should've called this thread "treasure maps (dawn age fronela and beyond)."

Tork has had about 400 years to evolve in isolation. Wonder what else they'll find when the maniacs have evacuated.

What do the people of Imther remember about Tork before Jannisor closed the border?

[jajagappa]

Just now, scott-martin said:

Tork has had about 400 years to evolve in isolation. Wonder what else they'll find when the maniacs have evacuated.

What do the people of Imther remember about Tork before Jannisor closed the border?

Yes will be interesting to see what lies within.

This bit is from a letter of an Imperial surveyor late in the 7th Wane

 

Quote

 

To:  Iridascius, Aide to Quinscion, His Most Excellent General of Procurement and Disbursement, Mirin’s Cross

Fr: Galacrustus, Geographer, Sage of Irripi Ontor, Imperial Survey Office, Hilltown

Dated: Full Moon, Stasis, Dark, 7/46

 

The Mad Sultanate

The Glowline of the Mad Sultanate pulses and shifts like an irregular heartbeat.  Sometimes it seems to wax and wane with the phases of the Red Moon.  Sometimes it's like the breathing of an invisible beast.  Sometimes it seems to writhe about or slither along searching for escape.  Sometimes the glow seems to coalesce into horrific images such as a 'mountain range' that melts away, or a wall of screaming, but silent, faces.  At times, great beasts of chaos can be seen below by clansmen shambling through the Woods of Horrors.  They are confined by Jannisor's Net, but hunters must be careful to avoid being trapped if the Glowline suddenly lurches after them.  Watchmen on the ridges above blow great gigantic horns to alert the hunters of these unexpected movements.

 

As for memories from beforehand, mostly that it was an open plain or passage largely given over to herders.  However, the place already had some association with Chaos as the reason there is a gap there is that one of the Chaos armies passed through there melting and dissolving all in its path on its way towards the Hill of Gold and the Glacier beyond.

 

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, scott-martin said:

the negative mountain of "Serenity"associated with Chalana Arroy that later filled up with water. Any leads?

I don't recall the reference, so not sure where that specifically stems from to provide a reasonable guide?

Perhaps under the White Sea though?

Chalana Arroy's name is unusual.  The "CH" sound is not native to DH, as noted in FS p.93: "Ch(a) is the most alien letter. It is the only one which does not have a deity associated with it. In fact, it is used almost exclusively within words, such as in Asharthcha."

That main figure is referenced in GRoY where Asharthcha, per the notes, literally “North-Overseer-White.”  "Cha - lana" likely meaning "White Lady" or "White Goddess".  The northern association suggests a tie-in with Zenfel and the White/Alabaster Camp that is crushed by Umath (which is then filled by water).  Personally, I think Chalana Arroy might originally be an Altinae deity or demi-god who found or inherited Harana Ilor's Harp of Harmony.  And that would add to the northern/White Sea/White Camp associations.

 

 

[scott-martin]

28 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Perhaps under the White Sea though?

BANG! This source also says "the North was the Right Hand, called Sixth of Cosmology," which suggests an ideal orientation facing west from the center. CA is sitting on the Spike and "stretch(es) out her right hand" in order to make her strange mountain in reverse.

The tale of the "Marching Scourge" in the Entekosiad, meanwhile, has a race of Incompletes create the White Sea by smashing and melting glacier ice. Their boss is a weird dual person who may signify a few esoteric identity transfers in Western religious history . . . or not. If he weren't double male, we could even postulate that he's Androgeus. The name of their resting place is of course far from immediately helpful in this "arkos" context.

I wonder when Cha-lana is (re)introduced to Dara Happa since Plentonius does not know her by that name with its foreign phoneme or any deity associated with that letter . . . there aren't even any "Early Rune" forms. They might have once had a different word for "white" and use it for the White Sea.

The Altinelans are an elusive people. I don't recall them ever having sorcerous magic but perhaps once upon a time they (or now estranged cousins) devoted themselves to logic, came south and left marks on the world's white quarter. Maybe Umath's concurrent fall taught them their mistake. Thinking a little deeper I would not be surprised if this is the tale of how they were sundered from the Luathans, who persisted in the cruelties of sorcery and went west red and screaming to the fifth hell, there to maintain their enmity against their frosty and nominally unfallen counterparts. I had never been able to figure that out before.

[jajagappa]

7 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

CA is sitting on the Spike and "stretch(es) out her right hand" in order to make her strange mountain in reverse.

Perhaps trying to heal the hole caused by Umath's fall?

9 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The tale of the "Marching Scourge" in the Entekosiad, meanwhile, has a race of Incompletes create the White Sea by smashing and melting glacier ice.

That sounds like one of the Chaos armies though.

And as it says in the note on p.70: "Scourge. If I am not mistaken, this is the same horde which melted the pass through the mountains in modern Tork"  (oddly despite knowing that Chaos had melted the pass, I had not seen that note before!)

14 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I wonder when Cha-lana is (re)introduced to Dara Happa since Plentonius does not know her by that name with its foreign phoneme or any deity associated with that letter . . .

The DH even now continue to reference the healing goddess as Erissa.  E.g. Entekosiad p.11 "White Healer. Probably our Erissa"

Plentonius notes in the Gods Wall reference: "The Healing Goddess. She is also called Our White Goddess."  So there's definitely the "White" association.  I don't know the derivation of "Erissa" though.  Perhaps it's her actual name rather than the Title, which is certainly the case for "Chalana".

There are references to the White Lady e.g. GRoY p.15: "Not even the White Lady, could change Murharzarm’s fate."  GRoY p.38 "[Antirius] is the Giver of Wisdom, for he rescued the Heart of Oslira and gives it out through the hands of the White Lady to bring back life."

But it's odd that Plentonius uses the word "CHA" for referencing White, suggesting perhaps that the term/color "white" was brought from outside (i.e. the north/Alabaster camp).

37 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The Altinelans are an elusive people.

Separately, and perhaps related to either the Altinae or Mernita we have these two references by Plentonius suggesting he mixed up some associations between White/North/Wisdom.

GRoY p. 57: "Asharthcha. White Overseer of the North, Ruler of the Compass, Keeper of Wisdom. He is also called the Long-bearded Measurer."

GRoY p. 58: "Verithurus. Overseer of Mernita. He is one of the Eight Celestial Sons of Yelm. He is also called the Master of Wisdom, the White God."  [Whereas from other sources we know this is Verithurusa, the Goddess of the White Moon.  Here the Mernita/planetary connection seems right, and she is associated with White, but the "Master of Wisdom" seems drawn from Asharthcha.]  She also might be the White Queen from Entekosiad p.12: "White Queen. This is the daughter of Franas."

38 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I don't recall them ever having sorcerous magic but perhaps once upon a time they (or now estranged cousins) devoted themselves to logic

Never sorcery, always Divine/theistic magic (and that fits today with Chalana Arroy too).  The westerners seem to be Lhankor Mhy and Issaries.

And I don't think they are necessarily devoted to logic, but to "wisdom", which suggests an intuitive approach rather than a logical one (an approach I think consistent with Chalana's healing). 

42 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Thinking a little deeper I would not be surprised if this is the tale of how they were sundered from the Luathans, who persisted in the cruelties of sorcery

The setting of the 4 Camps of the Golden Age (and also the 4 triangular "worlds" that sort of crash together in Revealed Mythology maps) suggests that these folk were originally separate, each with their own magical viewpoint, and their discovery of each other led to some of the subsequent conflicts perhaps over which magico-philosophical approach was correct. 

It could be though that the Black Camp/Luathans were involved to some degree in the fall of Umath, though, in an attempt to obliterate the "false" ideas of the Altinae. Consequently, the Altinae withdrew further from the world (or witnessed the rise of Storm and then Chaos from the hole and sought out a place even more remote, or at the border with Chaos that is exposed when the Sky Dome tilts southward).