Dodge or Die? Facing overpowered opponents

[soltakss]

3 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

From my perspective, if you cannot doge, your only goal is to try to stop the monster before it "touched" you/your group.

Exactly.

Shoot it, jump on its back, blind it, attack from behind, set traps, lure it over a cliff, anything to avoid a Trample. If you are trampled, use a set spear, cast Turn Blow and have a lot of healing available.

[g33k]

13 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

... From my perspective, if you cannot doge...

But if you have Doge'd, you probably pay others to take those insane risks "on behalf of our city..."   

 

 

 

(forgive my silly pun)

[davecake]

RQ3 has a rules for setting a spear vs a charge. In RQG, you can only do it with a Pike, so it will be a lot rarer (Yelmalio or Men And A Half only, really). 

In RQG, it is also supposed to be only used vs cavalry charges, but it makes sense you could use it against other charging beasts etc. It has its own special hit location table and everything. 

The rules are more or less the same, though. No parry or dodge allowed, but you use the damage bonus of the attacking creature, which usually makes it a pretty fair threat for most charging things - even for most dinosaurs, that would mean a successful attack would take out the location. The huge head armour of a triceratops makes it a bit less vulnerable to this tactic, though. RQG also has further penalties (you don't get your Manipulation bonus or Bladesharp etc increases, which seems mean), issues with parrying, etc. 

In RQ3 you could use a long spear, but a lance would strike first, so long spear vs cavalry charge was often a terrible idea. I might keep this, as there are situations where a 'cavalry' charge are not equipped with lances in Glorantha (such as dinosaurs and such under magical control), so it would still see use. 

 

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

RQ3 has a rules for setting a spear vs a charge. In RQG, you can only do it with a Pike, so it will be a lot rarer (Yelmalio or Men And A Half only, really). 

In RQG, it is also supposed to be only used vs cavalry charges, but it makes sense you could use it against other charging beasts etc. It has its own special hit location table and everything. 

The rules are more or less the same, though. No parry or dodge allowed, but you use the damage bonus of the attacking creature, which usually makes it a pretty fair threat for most charging things - even for most dinosaurs, that would mean a successful attack would take out the location. The huge head armour of a triceratops makes it a bit less vulnerable to this tactic, though. RQG also has further penalties (you don't get your Manipulation bonus or Bladesharp etc increases, which seems mean), issues with parrying, etc. 

In RQ3 you could use a long spear, but a lance would strike first, so long spear vs cavalry charge was often a terrible idea. I might keep this, as there are situations where a 'cavalry' charge are not equipped with lances in Glorantha (such as dinosaurs and such under magical control), so it would still see use. 

 

 

 

I think, as you say, we can use the rules for anything, not only horses. The question after, but for me it is a gm question not a rule one because we are in an epic and story telling situation, what happens if the player succeed and kill the "monster" :  sometimes it stops in front of the line, sometimes it rams* the line, then can hurt people / destroy material, etc...

As a GM if (a) player(s) succeed(s) to kill a beast, I would use dex roll or pow (luck) roll or battle roll or dodge roll to avoid any damage.

 

* "ram" I don't know the word, I find it in google translate.

[soltakss]

On 5/9/2020 at 3:53 PM, Joerg said:

In my experiences, the chances that player characters don't act unreasonable are less than avoiding incapacitation being hit by a parried 14D6 attack in enchanted Iron plate wielding a great shield or an iron greatsword protected by 4 points of Shield and 4 points of Protection on top. 14D6 do an average of 49 points of damage. The gear I listed reduces 36 points of damage or so. 13 points going through, plus-minus the random fluctuations of the damage roll.

With the attacker's 80% chance to trample successfully, there is no likelihood of receiving a glancing blow tossing the character painfully to the side.

And that's a design flaw if you want to play something resembling gritty realism and yet heroic gameplay, and should be addressed by the designers.

It might be worth avoiding Secrets of Dorastor, then.

The Son of Thed, a 40m Broo, has a 44D6 Damage Bonus; The Giant King of Neverdead, being a 16m Vampire Giant, has a 20D6 Damage Bonus; Heidi the Hydra has a 33D6 Damage Bonus; The Great gorp of Slimestone automatically absorbs anyone who comes in contact with it. 

But, it's all done in the best possible taste!

[soltakss]

43 minutes ago, soltakss said:

It might be worth avoiding Secrets of Dorastor, then.

Actually, don't avoid it, buy it and then don't use it or, even better, buy it and use bits of it.

Edited May 11, 2020 by soltakss

[Dissolv]

I'm still of the mind of following the Pendragon example.  Or classic mythology if that's your thing (and it is mine!).  Take a look at (1981) Clash of the Titans.

• Perseus heroically fights with Calibos -- wins. 
• Perseus heroically fights with the Medusa -- wins, despite her awful powers, thanks to the mirror shield and being generally a hero.
• Perseus has a return encounter with Calibos, now supported by giant scorpions.  Perseus fights heroically and wins, but loses all his party.
• Perseus is basically defeated at this point, but Divine Interventions to Zeus.  😄
• Perseus has zero chance against the Kraken, and must use the scenario plot hook of the Medusua's head to prevail. 

The way I see it, this is a great plot structure for a bigger than life, mythic adventure.  Perseus engages with, and defeats everything reasonable for a human to deal with.  He has to resort to DI once, and needs a lot of help along the way (Invisibility helmet, mirror shield, magic owl of distraction and hooting).  But in the end, he doesn't tackle the Kraken all Beowulf like.  No human can, not even a hero.  He has to use what was in the scenario to prevail.   Otherwise it would also be a very short story as he just goes down to the shore to fight it. 

This structure allows the GM to vary the content, and the challenge of the various encounters, while still allowing the possible of a mortal "overcoming" a Titan.  It avoids the whole "I'm so awesome that I just parry Smaug with my wooden shield" problem.   Basically a Rune Lord can run the quest very reasonably and prevail, no need for Harrek the Berserker level PC's.  

I am looking to see how the higher level Hero questing might offer tools for dealing with oversize opponents, but I suspect suppression of attack skill is ultimately the answer there.  Mechanically, that is. 

[Lordabdul]

14 hours ago, davecake said:

RQG also has further penalties (you don't get your Manipulation bonus or Bladesharp etc increases, which seems mean), issues with parrying, etc. 

A couple of those pike rules in RQG seem to me needlessly complicated, and easy to forget (no manipulation skill modifier, and no attack bonus from Bladesharp, in particular), so much that I would probably ignore them, just to avoid a 2 min debate with a player who asks why the rules do this (I do understand what they're trying to model, though).

Otherwise yeah, those rules seem totally appropriate for fighting back against a charging dinosaur. I like that RQ3 allows other weapons to be braced on the ground, and not just the pike, but at first glance the rules on how these other weapons compare to the pike seem a bit too superficial. IMHO it should be be very dangerous to attempt this with a shorter weapon.

I could also see some extra roll, or some extra interpretation of existing rolls, to model the situation where the character gravely injures, or even kills, the charging animal, but due to inertia, the animal still slams into the character.

[Videopete]

I wouldn't fight a freaking Dino, I would throw a befuddle on it and move on. Looking at raw stats in Runequest is almost folly, it fails to take into consideration spirit magic, spirits, runes and passions. The combination of the above radically alters the game.

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

It might be worth avoiding Secrets of Dorastor, then.

The Son of Thed, a 40m Broo, has a 44D6 Damage Bonus; The Giant King of Neverdead, being a 16m Vampire Giant, has a 20D6 Damage Bonus; Heidi the Hydra has a 33D6 Damage Bonus; The Great gorp of Slimestone automatically absorbs anyone who comes in contact with it. 

But, it's all done in the best possible taste!

Dorastor was never meant to be returned from, was it? You're supposed to be at a huge risk in Dorastor after half a lifetime overcoming the hero plane.

Placing a beginning characters' campaign on its outskirts was one of the weirdest ideas I have seen in the history of Gloranthan scenarios.

[davecake]

7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

A couple of those pike rules in RQG seem to me needlessly complicated, and easy to forget (no manipulation skill modifier, and no attack bonus from Bladesharp, in particular), so much that I would probably ignore them, just to avoid a 2 min debate with a player who asks why the rules do this (I do understand what they're trying to model, though).

The RQG philosophy in practice, explicit or not, seems to be to make the base rules quite simple (combing attack and parry, removing the different parry rules for different kinds of weapon etc), but then introduce as much complexity in a simulationist way for special cases. Rules that are simple, unless you get excited about a specific bit of ancient warfare, then go nuts with fiddly rules, seems how it work. It seems to have gone a little bit too far in both directions for my personal taste. But hey, I own multiple other editions and related games, and can customise my house rules to taste. And I play with a bunch of grognardy types who care just as much as me about the difference between hoplites and phalangites, or at least play along. 

7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Otherwise yeah, those rules seem totally appropriate for fighting back against a charging dinosaur. I like that RQ3 allows other weapons to be braced on the ground, and not just the pike, but at first glance the rules on how these other weapons compare to the pike seem a bit too superficial. IMHO it should be be very dangerous to attempt this with a shorter weapon.

TBH, I would probably only use them normally with pikes and long spears, and setting a long spear is pretty suicidal against a lance charge, as the lance hits first (but there are other situations when it is more useful). 

I'm got to take a look at the Men And A Half, they are the only people besides Sun Domers who use pikes, and I am fairly sure they don't do the Sun Domer 2H Spear and Shield full phalangite thing. Setting your pike is no brainer for the Sun Domers - they can't parry or dodge in formation anyway. The pike users are the only guys in Prax who are going to be able to stand up to a bison or rhino charge, I'm sure the Agimori do it, just might leave them more vulnerable to missile etc than the Templars. 

13 hours ago, soltakss said:

The Son of Thed, a 40m Broo, has a 44D6 Damage Bonus; The Giant King of Neverdead, being a 16m Vampire Giant, has a 20D6 Damage Bonus; Heidi the Hydra has a 33D6 Damage Bonus; The Great gorp of Slimestone automatically absorbs anyone who comes in contact with it. 

But, it's all done in the best possible taste!

I am looking forward to it. Though I am sure bits will be too much for me. 

Another special case rule I miss from RQ3 is the knockback rules, which proved relevant to these sort of fights - though usually to the PCs detriment. One rule was the overhand smash could end up driving you into the ground, so someone using Earth Shield could block infinite damage from the strike but still break their legs. 

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Videopete said:

I wouldn't fight a freaking Dino, I would throw a befuddle on it and move on.

You jump on its back and strangle it to death, it can't attack you so you are safe. Easy-peasy.

One of the PCs in our Dorastor campaign Teleported behind Cacodemon and used a Garrote with Strike and a big Bladesharp to cut off its head. If it works against Cacodemon then it should work against a dinosaur.

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Dorastor was never meant to be returned from, was it?

Maybe, maybe not. 

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

You're supposed to be at a huge risk in Dorastor after half a lifetime overcoming the hero plane.

Yes, and that should be the case if you spend any time there.

However, it is possible to have quick missions in and out, avoiding all the very nasty stuff.

I ran a campaign in Dorastor for 4 or 5 years, with the PCs increasing in capability. They did not try and face off against the really dangerous things until well into the campaign.

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Placing a beginning characters' campaign on its outskirts was one of the weirdest ideas I have seen in the history of Gloranthan scenarios.

It makes some sense. The Borderlands of Dorastor are dangerous but not overly so. Even parts of Dorastor are not that bad, about the same as any Chaos Nest. 

The truly bad parts, however, are truly bad indeed.