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BRP vs. MRQ & the OGL


The Tweaker

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Well, the truth was, the OGL was _never_ needed; GORE style reverse engineering was always possible, and very hard to potentially control. What the OGL and to a lesser degree the D20 license said was "We're saying outright if you produce product for this we won't try to take you to court." In a world where, as F. Lee Bailey said, "The power to indict is the power to destroy" (i.e. just going to court can destroy you whether you win or lose) that was non-trivial.

Well, since the copywrite laws specifically note that you cannot copywrite a rules system, OGL is completely unnecessary.

But, yeah, big companies can throw money around and destroy small compnies with legal action. It a lot like being drafted into a poker game, where he other guy can make your bets for you.

Problem is, OGL is no protection. If WotC, or better yet Hasbro, wanted to, they could sue someone over a d20 product. While they probably wouldn't win the case, the cost in legal fees would be enough to shut down most RPG companies.

In not a case of wring and wrong, its a case of how much can you afford to be right?

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Seriously, you don't have to buy them if they come out. That's why the D20 flood died...people stopped buying stuff that was bad, and the phenomenon dried up and went away. Personally, I think I'd trust an aspiring author who wants to produce a product for BRP a bit more than some D20 fan barfing out another prestige class splatbook. BRP-based setting have always been a bit more developed, story focused, and generally expected it's fans and proponents to be a "cut above the rest." Take an example at the OGL-MRQ/GORE based POD books at lulu.com, for example: The Stupor Mundi setting is a ver neat and well developed idea, and the other offering, setting during the cold war....whadda concept.

Still, I just proved that BRP probably doesn't need to be OGL, I guess, since people can use MRQ and GORE to net the same effect, I suppose.

That all supprts my point, though. BRP stuff was always a bit better, as there was more control over the line. With 3rd party publishers that won't happen.

Consider that third party use of RPG stuff did exist long before OGL, and successfully. A few companies did producce BRP stuff in the past, and Chasoium did pull off Thieves World.

If OGL leads to a flood (more like a leak with BRP) of bad products that eventually trickles off, what good does that do anyone?

OGL actually hurts companies too. Having your own RPG means having your own fanbase. Writing stuff for a differnt RPG means competing with every other company writing for that game.

I wonder just how many Gladiator prestige class write up are floating around for D&D now?

Oh, BTW, I think that mRQ is "D&Dified" and have played the new edtion of D&D and am not surprised by what I see at all.

Do I think OGL will lead to a flood of products? No. I suspect it will lead to a half dozen third party vendors, and a few one off publishers. With maybe one or two decent products and the rest crap. At best it might just double the amount of BRP products.

Especially since, right now, if you're any good, why go OGL when you could probably get hired by Chaosium? From the posts I've read, they are looking for people to write stuff to support the game.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Well, since the copywrite laws specifically note that you cannot copywrite a rules system, OGL is completely unnecessary.

But, yeah, big companies can throw money around and destroy small compnies with legal action. It a lot like being drafted into a poker game, where he other guy can make your bets for you.

Problem is, OGL is no protection. If WotC, or better yet Hasbro, wanted to, they could sue someone over a d20 product. While they probably wouldn't win the case, the cost in legal fees would be enough to shut down most RPG companies.

In not a case of wring and wrong, its a case of how much can you afford to be right?

In the gaming industry, probably only Mattel can rival Hasbro/WotC on the legal/financial level (really the same), and Mattel is not manufacturing RPG.

If they could buy Chaosium, perhaps they could withstand going legal vs WotC. ;)

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

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In the gaming industry, probably only Mattel can rival Hasbro/WotC on the legal/financial level (really the same), and Mattel is not manufacturing RPG.

If they could buy Chaosium, perhaps they could withstand going legal vs WotC. ;)

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Ow!::shocked:

It's the Avalon Hill situation all over again!:eek:

On the Plus side, Hasbro is so big, that they are compartmentalized enough so that WotC doesn't have access to all that money.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I believe the MRQ OGL specifies that publishers have to refer gamers back to their Players rulebook for core rules. In otherwords you can't publish a complete game.

What game publisher in their right mind would consciously decide to limit their market to the faction of rpg'ers that already own MRQ?

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If Chaosium, the only English language RPG publisher from the original wave of RPG publishers in the mid seventies to still survive in anything like its original form, "blew it completely", I dread to think how one might assess FGU (basically dead) or GDW (shut up shop rather than gamble on rebuilding after a combination of factors hit the business hard in the early nineties) or TSR (owned the original Golden Goose, ended up bankrupt and bought up by a fan made good, who sold the IP on only four years later for a huge profit) for example.

MRQ is an adequate BRP variant produced to generally very poor standards, Mongoose are a company whose track record is such that I will not buy from them, nor anything released under their "RuneQuest" trademark license.

SO for me the difference is simple: BRP is a game I am prepared to pay for, and MRQ is not.

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

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But OGL isn't floating the boat either. WotC isn't making money from OGL stuff. The adnatage of OGL is that it gives WotC market control over the system, and allows them to sell the core rule books to 85% of the RPG market.

Ah, but that was the brilliance of it; indirectly, it did. Every scenario, every sourcebook put out in OGL ended up fueling sales of core books. The few standalone games didn't, but they were a drop in the bucket compared to things that were, in the end, add-ons to D&D; things that people wanted but were, in the end, not economic for the giant that was WOTC (or TSR before it) to do. It was like getting someone else to write the software for your computers; you might not make any money on the software directly, but everyone had to have a computer to run it on.

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Well, since the copywrite laws specifically note that you cannot copywrite a rules system, OGL is completely unnecessary.

But, yeah, big companies can throw money around and destroy small compnies with legal action. It a lot like being drafted into a poker game, where he other guy can make your bets for you.

But that was the point. The law might let you win, but even engaging with it likely would ruin you.

Problem is, OGL is no protection. If WotC, or better yet Hasbro, wanted to, they could sue someone over a d20 product. While they probably wouldn't win the case, the cost in legal fees would be enough to shut down most RPG companies.

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Especially since, right now, if you're any good, why go OGL when you could probably get hired by Chaosium? From the posts I've read, they are looking for people to write stuff to support the game.

Simple, really; you want to do a product Chaosium isn't interested in publishing because they don't think there's a market for it, and you do. Any product is a risk, so Chaosium has to be cautious on more than simply quality grounds.

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If Chaosium, the only English language RPG publisher from the original wave of RPG publishers in the mid seventies to still survive in anything like its original form, "blew it completely", I dread to think how one might assess FGU (basically dead) or GDW (shut up shop rather than gamble on rebuilding after a combination of factors hit the business hard in the early nineties) or TSR (owned the original Golden Goose, ended up bankrupt and bought up by a fan made good, who sold the IP on only four years later for a huge profit) for example.

Chaosium has been surviving on essentially one game line for years, with minimal staff. It just happened to be a popular enough line to let them do that. One or two of FGUs games might have permitted that too if Scott Bizar wasn't, essentially, nuts.

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That is the drawback to pushing out product. One reason why stuff used to tricky out was that the same half dozen people wrote it. The best stuff for RQ2 is all written by the same people. That's why the quality is consistent. Open the floodgates and everything goes down except for quantity.

I'd rather buy one book like the Great Pendragon campaign then a dozen half-assed OGL Pendragon books. Same with BRP.

"The Great Argrath Campaign"?? :D

SDLeary

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"The Great Argrath Campaign"?? :D

SDLeary

Well since this is BRP is would have to be Glorantha-free.

"The Great Cthulhu campaign"? (probably much like the old Phil & Dixie "Escape from Cthulhu" RPG-well LARP) :eek:

"The Great Caesar Campaign" (they are putting out a Roman book. The title is a natural for the sequel, "The Great Ceasar's Ghost Campaign." :P)

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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:focus:

I've tuned into this discussion late, but I hope that, when BRP FINALLY comes out, someone can compile a FAQ with a detailed comparison between the two.

I agree that MRQ wasn't playtested well -- Mongoose issued a "Player's Update" in July -- and their slim hardbacks are way overpriced. On the other hand, issuing their rules with the OGL does mean a) a free if less complete set of rules, and B) the freedom to publish your own MRQ derivatives, or MRQ add-ons, within the limits of the license.

Does anyone know what kind of licenses Chaosium will have for BRP? At the very least, if I post some house rules or setting information on a website, could Chaosium (or some hypothetical company that bought them) pull a T$R and legitimately threaten legal action? If I someday wrote a supplement that had BRP stats in it, even as an appendix, could they go all Palladium on me? Does anything BRP need their explicit approval?

That Chaosium allowed Basic Role Playing System to reprint the Basic Roleplaying pamphlet is encouraging, but honestly, given our litigious society, having a system licensed under the OGL or something like it does allay some fears.

Frank

"Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG
 
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I believe the MRQ OGL specifies that publishers have to refer gamers back to their Players rulebook for core rules. In otherwords you can't publish a complete game.

What game publisher in their right mind would consciously decide to limit their market to the faction of rpg'ers that already own MRQ?

That limit is only for those who in addition to using the OGL wants to use the RuneQuest logo.

Does anyone know what kind of licenses Chaosium will have for BRP? At the very least, if I post some house rules or setting information on a website, could Chaosium (or some hypothetical company that bought them) pull a T$R and legitimately threaten legal action? If I someday wrote a supplement that had BRP stats in it, even as an appendix, could they go all Palladium on me? Does anything BRP need their explicit approval?

From what Dustin told me, as long as it's not just a lot of copying from published books, and you add a link back to Chaosium and a copyright statement, then non-commercial fan work is no problem.

SGL.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
b1.gif 116/420. High Priest.

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I agree that MRQ wasn't playtested well -- Mongoose issued a "Player's Update" in July -- and their slim hardbacks are way overpriced. On the other hand, issuing their rules with the OGL does mean a) a free if less complete set of rules, and B) the freedom to publish your own MRQ derivatives, or MRQ add-ons, within the limits of the license.

It also means people can (and are already) publishing works that effectively copy stuff Chaosium are doing, without Chaosium having any legal recourse. This, to me, is morally dubious. The fact that it was apparently Greg Stafford's intent ("the same system but not the same copyright words") in granting Mongoose a license to use the RuneQuest trademark doesn't make it any less unpalatable. Hence my personal decison not to support MGP and MRQ STL products.

Does anyone know what kind of licenses Chaosium will have for BRP? At the very least, if I post some house rules or setting information on a website, could Chaosium (or some hypothetical company that bought them) pull a T$R and legitimately threaten legal action?

If you go beyond fair use / fair dealing in quoting Chaosium copyright works, or post material that uses their trademarks (such as BRP) without correct permission or which could bring their trademarks (such as the BRP logo) in to disrespect, then yes they probably could I think (IANAL).

If I someday wrote a supplement that had BRP stats in it, even as an appendix, could they go all Palladium on me?

If it misused the BRP trademark, or again went beyond fair use / fair dealing in quoting Chaosium copyright work, yes I think (IANAL). But bear in mind that it's an open question as to whether Palladium would actually win a court case, as stats and a simple note saying "compatible with Chaosium Inc's Basic Role Playing system" may well NOT constitutue a breach of Chaosium's copyright / trademark - Bottom line, consult an actual lawyer or better yet, ask Chaosium in advance...

Does anything BRP need their explicit approval?

As I undertsand it, if you want to quote any of their copyright works beyond fair use / fair dealing, or use their trademarks beyond simple reference, then yes I think (IANAL).

Bear in mind that Chaosium have always had a remarkably relaxed and decent attitude towards not-for profit fan ventures that communicate with them. I've always found them very sympathetic to anything that doesn't infringe their rights.

That Chaosium allowed Basic Role Playing System to reprint the Basic Roleplaying pamphlet is encouraging,

I think that's actually more "didn't think it was worth the fight...", bearing in mind that the copyright breaching files are hosted on a Russian server, and they thus have almost zero chance of enforcing any order for the files to be taken down.

but honestly, given our litigious society, having a system licensed under the OGL or something like it does allay some fears.

Could people please drop this fixation with the OGL? It's a complete red herring! Its benefits are debatable, and its applicability to Chaosium and BRP's circumstacnes are dubious, and far more likely to be harmful than beneficial.

What BRP fans and Chasoium need is a BRP license - a way that lets third parties support Chasoium's BRP without having to jump through too many restrictive hoops, but which also protects Chaosium's core investment in BRP.

As I've said before, Green Ronin's True20 license, or WEG's d6 would be good starting points. A two tier approach - a "Compatible with BRP" logo for PDF's and semi-pro fan material, and a more costly "Approved for use with BRP" for por-3rd patry PDF & print products. Neither would allow a full BRP game (that I'd suggest they should still do via separate specific licenses), but it would allow people to publish their own settings as BRP compatible, or a series of adventures (a la the Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classics for d20).

That would allow third party support, whilst protecting Chaosium's core book sales, and still leaving room for specific licenses like Seraphim Guard's Dead World

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

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If you go beyond fair use / fair dealing in quoting Chaosium copyright works, or post material that uses their trademarks (such as BRP) without correct permission or which could bring their trademarks (such as the BRP logo) in to disrespect, then yes they probably could I think (IANAL).

Basic Roleplaying, Basic Role-Playing or BRP is porbably not phrases/acronyms they can trademark/copyright. The logo on the other hand will most likely be copyrighted. Posting houserules or setting information will not be a problem unless the setting information is a direct copy from a published work. They have very few restrictions on fan work as far as I can understand.

If it misused the BRP trademark, or again went beyond fair use / fair dealing in quoting Chaosium copyright work, yes I think (IANAL). But bear in mind that it's an open question as to whether Palladium would actually win a court case, as stats and a simple note saying "compatible with Chaosium Inc's Basic Role Playing system" may well NOT constitutue a breach of Chaosium's copyright / trademark - Bottom line, consult an actual lawyer or better yet, ask Chaosium in advance...

If you produce a commercial supllement with BRP stats in it, it alone would pose no problem. Characteristics and skills are allready used in several OGL games. You could just say it's GORE ;)

Using the logo, specific spells or setting stuff from published material, or something else unique to Chaosium and the Basic Roleplaying system could lead you into problems though.

I think that's actually more "didn't think it was worth the fight...", bearing in mind that the copyright breaching files are hosted on a Russian server, and they thus have almost zero chance of enforcing any order for the files to be taken down.

This site was created in defence of the Basic Role Playing System and with the sole aim of bringing more and more players to it, and to help sustain public interest in the Basic Role Playing System. No copyright infringement is intended, and any requests from the copyright holders to remove information from the page will be complied with promptly.

Worth the fight? If you see Gianni's statement included above, they probably didn't even think it was worth the email.

Could people please drop this fixation with the OGL? It's a complete red herring! Its benefits are debatable, and its applicability to Chaosium and BRP's circumstacnes are dubious, and far more likely to be harmful than beneficial.

OGL is good. We want OGL! :P

What BRP fans and Chasoium need is a BRP license - a way that lets third parties support Chasoium's BRP without having to jump through too many restrictive hoops, but which also protects Chaosium's core investment in BRP.

A logo license? Like MRQ has? :P

As I've said before, Green Ronin's True20 license, or WEG's d6 would be good starting points. A two tier approach - a "Compatible with BRP" logo for PDF's and semi-pro fan material, and a more costly "Approved for use with BRP" for por-3rd patry PDF & print products. Neither would allow a full BRP game (that I'd suggest they should still do via separate specific licenses), but it would allow people to publish their own settings as BRP compatible, or a series of adventures (a la the Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classics for d20).

That could work too, if they were very clear and the information about them easily available on their site. The license they have at the moment though, is quite the turnoff for all except for professional rpg publishing companies.

SGL.

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Basic Roleplaying, Basic Role-Playing or BRP is porbably not phrases/acronyms they can trademark/copyright. The logo on the other hand will most likely be copyrighted. Posting houserules or setting information will not be a problem unless the setting information is a direct copy from a published work. They have very few restrictions on fan work as far as I can understand.

There are very important and subtle distinctions between copyright and trademark in US and European law, on which I am not an expert. However, Chaosium definietly have the BRP logo registered as a trademark I believe, and I'm pretty sure they have the title registered in the context of table top RPG's as well, so publishing your own game and calling it "Basic Role Playing" would be an infringment they could action, but calling your game "Tales of Tertaran, the Basic Role Playing Game" would be marginal. As with all these things, the law is in the end a guide - what is or is not an infringment is proved in court.

This site was created in defence of the Basic Role Playing System and with the sole aim of bringing more and more players to it, and to help sustain public interest in the Basic Role Playing System. No copyright infringement is intended, and any requests from the copyright holders to remove information from the page will be complied with promptly.

Worth the fight? If you see Gianni's statement included above, they probably didn't even think it was worth the email.

The fact that one intends no harm is not (under US or European law anyway) a defence. That website breaches Chaosium's copyright under US and European law, the only question is whther Chaosium choose to action it. In deed, I stringly suspect that one the ne BRP is actually released, Chaosium may well politley ask that the files be taken down.

OGL is good. We want OGL! :P

Why? What actual concrete benefits would Chaosium releasing BRP material as Open Game Content under the OGL bring (especially to Chaosium, who need some clear incentive) and can you actually garuantee that it will do no harm to Chaosium's core business? Because as far as I can see all it would do is make available for free stuff that otherwise Chaosium might have got income from - not a strategy for a business to survive...

A logo license? Like MRQ has? :P

Yes, absolutely. Becuase let us be honest - the OGL is irrelvant, as rule systems are not copyright. Write a d100 / BRP based game and you are free to publish it, you just can't copy from someone elses work without their permission and you can't use someone elses trademarks without their permission.

If you want to advertise your game as BRP compatible, you need (and actually, that's a dubious assertion in some jurisdictions I believe) permission to use that trademark - for third party publishers that's where the added value lies, in being able to associate their work with the trademark brand, and for the trademark owner the value lies in setting terms for access to the trademark that benefits them (sucha as all licensed works carrying a plug for their core book).

That could work too, if they were very clear and the information about them easily available on their site. The license they have at the moment though, is quite the turnoff for all except for professional rpg publishing companies.

Err, have they actually posted any public statement about licensing? Last time I looked there really wasn't anything. And I quite agree it's rather frustrating. Didn't Dustin say they were working on a formal licensing policy to be announced soon?

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

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There are very important and subtle distinctions between copyright and trademark in US and European law, on which I am not an expert. However, Chaosium definietly have the BRP logo registered as a trademark I believe, and I'm pretty sure they have the title registered in the context of table top RPG's as well, so publishing your own game and calling it "Basic Role Playing" would be an infringment they could action, but calling your game "Tales of Tertaran, the Basic Role Playing Game" would be marginal. As with all these things, the law is in the end a guide - what is or is not an infringment is proved in court.

"Basic Roleplaying" as the name of a RPG system might well be protected. But what they can do with "Tales of Tertaran, a basic roleplaying game" is probably not that much, as basic and roleplaying are to commonly used words.

The fact that one intends no harm is not (under US or European law anyway) a defence. That website breaches Chaosium's copyright under US and European law, the only question is whther Chaosium choose to action it. In deed, I stringly suspect that one the ne BRP is actually released, Chaosium may well politley ask that the files be taken down.

They might, but so far they haven't. His site rank nr. 1 on Google, so they must have been aware of it for quite some time.

Yes, absolutely. Becuase let us be honest - the OGL is irrelvant, as rule systems are not copyright. Write a d100 / BRP based game and you are free to publish it, you just can't copy from someone elses work without their permission and you can't use someone elses trademarks without their permission.

But then we agree. I they did something like Mongoose did, and let people make third party product for their system with the condition they made it dependent on the rules book published by Chaosium, then there would be both more money for Chaosium and a better spread of the system.

Err, have they actually posted any public statement about licensing? Last time I looked there really wasn't anything. And I quite agree it's rather frustrating. Didn't Dustin say they were working on a formal licensing policy to be announced soon?

That's part of the problem. And Dustin said soon for a LONG time ago now. What I've heard about the license from small publishers who had showed interest in getting such a license was that the cost would be vary for each product, depending on weither Chaosium saw it as in competition with their own planned supplements, and that it would be a % of the sales paid quarterly with the first payment paid in advance.

SGL.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
b1.gif 116/420. High Priest.

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It also means people can (and are already) publishing works that effectively copy stuff Chaosium are doing, without Chaosium having any legal recourse. This, to me, is morally dubious. The fact that it was apparently Greg Stafford's intent ("the same system but not the same copyright words") in granting Mongoose a license to use the RuneQuest trademark doesn't make it any less unpalatable. Hence my personal decison not to support MGP and MRQ STL products.

I agree completely, Nick - and I've chosen to avoid the Mongoose products for the same reasons. It doesn't take too much digging online to discern who is writing what that steps firmly on Chaosium's best interests...

What BRP fans and Chasoium need is a BRP license - a way that lets third parties support Chasoium's BRP without having to jump through too many restrictive hoops, but which also protects Chaosium's core investment in BRP.

As I've said before, Green Ronin's True20 license, or WEG's d6 would be good starting points. A two tier approach - a "Compatible with BRP" logo for PDF's and semi-pro fan material, and a more costly "Approved for use with BRP" for por-3rd patry PDF & print products. Neither would allow a full BRP game (that I'd suggest they should still do via separate specific licenses), but it would allow people to publish their own settings as BRP compatible, or a series of adventures (a la the Goodman Games Dungeon Crawl Classics for d20).

That would allow third party support, whilst protecting Chaosium's core book sales, and still leaving room for specific licenses like Seraphim Guard's Dead World

This is a much more realistic stance for Chaosium to take. The OGL only serves the huge engine which is D&D. For a company with such a smaller market-share, OGL only opens them up to material of dubious content being published based on BRP.

Why would they want to sully the reputation of their rulesystem with rafts of potentially horrid product?

Given a specific license, they would be able to vet the potential products. There's a podcast where WotC called a panel at a convention, asking producers of OGL material what they wanted during the migration to 4.0. WotC's primary concern was that they didn't have the resources to do this kind of filtering; their submitted volume was too great.

Given this, Chaosium's size could potentially help them in this regard. It would allow them to go over potential candidates with less trouble than WotC could.

I love their game system, but Chaosium (if they intend to be around in another 3 years) needs to begin looking hard at these issues... I will support them through the changes, and I'm really excited about the Basic Roleplaying book!

Emerging from my Dark Age...

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I don't particularly care who publishes RQ/BRP/GORE/whatever.

Chaosium was good in the 80s, produced some systems throughout the 90s and 00s, but as I have no interest in Call of Cthulhu, already had Stormbringer and strongly disagreed with the principles behind the esoteric-magic-game-that-bombed (I can't even remember it's name), their later products meant nothing to me. They sold RQ and it bombed, so I have no loyalty whatsoever to Chaosium as a company.

Having said that, they have done good work over the years and it would be nice for them to continue.

But, as to boycotting another company for treading on their toes, no thanks, not really my style. That's what happens on the stinking dunghill that is Capitalism.

As long as some company produces some games/supplements that look something like RQ, I'll be happy. OGL allows that in droves, other licencing agreements might allow it. The more the merrier, in my opinion.

RQ was kept alive as a game by third-party publications with precious little help from Chaosium, Avalon Hill or even Issaries for a while. So, third-party publications are the key to getting a lot of interesting material out very quickly.

We can all be snobby and sniff "It's not like Griffin Mountain/Pavis/Big Rubble/Trollpack/Borderlands" but nothing will be like them.

We've moved on. Cheap and cheerful and lots of it, that's what I want.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. 

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I don't particularly care who publishes RQ/BRP/GORE/whatever.

Fair enough - I tend to prefer the material from Chaosium because I *am* interested in Call of Cthulhu and I appreciate their production values (deliberately not looking at the monographs - which are less than ideal, in my mind). I would like there to be lots and lots of BRP-derived products out there, but the user base just isn't big enough for it.

RQ was kept alive as a game by third-party publications with precious little help from Chaosium, Avalon Hill or even Issaries for a while. So, third-party publications are the key to getting a lot of interesting material out very quickly.

Which 3rd-party publications are you referring to, specifically? I might have missed something!

Someone mentioned FGU (mostly percentile-based game systems with, ahem, *challenging* character creation systems :shocked: ), which I enjoyed several releases from. Psi World, Bushido, and Space Opera leap to mind. Their Land of Adventure boxed set did some early Historical Earth material, too (again, percentile based).

But if I remember correctly, these came out during the RQ heyday...

I'm genuinely interested in hearing about other 3rd-party materials.

Thanks for your feedback --

Emerging from my Dark Age...

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Which 3rd-party publications are you referring to, specifically? I might have missed something!

I'm genuinely interested in hearing about other 3rd-party materials.

Well, Tales of the Reaching Moon and Tradetalk were the main fanzines. You also have things like Wyrms Footprints, the Pavis and Big Rubble Companions and Books of Drastic Resolutions spring to mind immediately. Then the Unspoken Word books came out for HeroWars (not RQ/BRP but close enough for my tastes and Gloranthan which is an important BRP/RQ setting).

They kept things going long enough for the HeroWars/HeroQuest revival and the re-emergence of RQ.

They aren't that important to people who don't like/use Glorantha/RQ/HW/HQ but they are still useful things to have.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. 

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What actual concrete benefits would Chaosium releasing BRP material as Open Game Content under the OGL bring (especially to Chaosium, who need some clear incentive) and can you actually garuantee that it will do no harm to Chaosium's core business? Because as far as I can see all it would do is make available for free stuff that otherwise Chaosium might have got income from - not a strategy for a business to survive...

This argument is a little over-long, so to summarize: By allowing others to use the "core" of BRP free of charge, Chaosium could create a secondary market for BRP-compatible material, and boost the sales of their own BRP line.

My premise is that Chaosium wants Basic Roleplaying to do well, perhaps even taking a little business away from D&D and White Wolf's Storyteller games. Chaosium's tendency to do small print runs, to the point where their books become instant collectors' items, belies this premise, but I'll run with it anyway.

As far as the current market is concerned, BRP is a johnny-come-lately to the "generic system" market. Never mind it's been around forever; a lot of current gamers haven't heard of it, and others would be reluctant to jump systems unless it supports their particular genre or play style. Chaosium, as a four-man operation, can't hope to compete with the likes of GURPS, much less the D&D juggernaut.

Therefore, a clear, legally binding statement from Chaosium allowing others to reference "core" rules free of charge would enable a secondary market of "BRP-compatible" rules extensions, settings, and adventures. Said market would consist mainly of small PDFs on DriveThruRPG or YourGamesNow; in today's market only an idiot would do a print-run of a full $30 book without establishing a market for it.

By "core" rules, I mean the equivalent of the old BRP pamphlet: primary and secondary attributes, the percentile skill system, a common subset of skills, the essence of the combat system, and the principle of increasing skills through use. Since Chaosium used to provide those as a free pamphlet, now allowed to exist on a web page, and now presents a version in their free Call of Cthulhu quick-start, I can't see how endorsing an updated version would lose Chaosium sales. WotC didn't suffer during the d20 boom, since they still had the brand, and could make the final call whether a product had the "d20" logo on it.

Unlike the d20 gold-rush, the BRP is small enough that, while 90% of it might be crap, it will be easier to find the 10% that isn't crap. And, of course, if you want guaranteed good stuff, you could buy from Chaosium. Discovering a wealth of add-ons and customizations for a new game would, as the marketroids would say, "delight the customer".

Even better, Chaosium might allow anyone to drop "Core BRP" wholesale into a game, to make it "BRP compatible". (Which might not be the same as "Official BRP".) If you're trying a new game, ideally you'd buy a single book complete with setting and rules. A huge problem with, say, GURPS, is that you have to pay $75 for the 4th Edition Basic Set before you can use any of the $35+ other books.

OGL itself might not be the solution. The specific provisions I'm thinking of designate "open content" from "product identity", and not charging for the former, but perhaps they're not precise enough, or have other legal entanglements. To strengthen the BRP brand, though, maybe Chaosium would require "Core BRP" to appear in its entirety, unedited, separate from any non-core content.

Another possibility, since Mongoose already took the OGL hit, is to design a "BRP-compatible" system off MRQ, designate it as OGL, and release it free a la GORE. It would be the equivalent of the old BRP pamphlet, maybe with a few extra skills, and if Chaosium objects to even mentioning BRP, then said ruleset would have some alternate, but suggestive, name.

Frank

"Welcome to the hottest and fastest-growing hobby of, er, 1977." -- The Laundry RPG
 
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This argument is a little over-long, so to summarize: By allowing others to use the "core" of BRP free of charge, Chaosium could create a secondary market for BRP-compatible material, and boost the sales of their own BRP line.

I don't think that would happen. OGL has yet to create a secondary market for any RPG. All it does is provide additional sources of material for the primary market. No one's buying third party d20/MRQ products without being aware of the primary product line. Going OGL just means more product, inconsistent quality, and competition within your own game system. Then there is the inevitable confusion with someone buys the "Brand X" Roman book instead of the official one.

To tap a secondary market, make some multi-system products, like AEG has done with L5R. Putting BRP and d20 rules in the same supplement would generate sales among the d20 crowd, but annoys the BRP fans, as about a third of the book will be "wasted" on d20.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I think that the nature of the d20 system (class and level system) lends itself to the flood of OGL material. New classes and feats can be created ad infinitum. However, BRP (skill based system) doesn't lend itself to this type of expansion.

The problem with d20 OGL materials is that there is no check and balances of the new feats and classes against each other. Subsequently, if you wanted to use 3rd party materials you pretty much had to stick to one 3rd party producer to maintain continuity.

As an example, I only have purchased Green Ronin materials for d20 Modern. I like their material and find an internal consistency. However, I am sure their are many other producers of d20 Modern materials.

BRP Ze 32/420

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