Likitae

[M Helsdon]

Obviously Seshna Likita and her daughter were Likitae, which seem to be a 'class' of Earth snake women, but does anyone know anything more about them?

[Sir_Godspeed]

The Xeotam Dialogues uses the term Likiti as a general term for Earth Runic beings. 

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/jeffs-old-blogs/xeotam-dialogues/ 

Quote

Aamor later learned that no mortal could ever hope to control the Elements completely, since to do so would mean to become one with that element. His teacher said some barbarian sorcerers try to do just that, but end up only as slaves to the gods. Instead, a proper wizard controls one of the lesser gods of the elements, one of the Srvuali who actually are but portions of the Elementals themselves. It was just this fact that made the Srvuali more useful than their parent Elementals, for in being just a part of the whole, each Srvuali was specialized in some aspect. Thus, although Nakala was the Darkness above and below the Surface, a wizard would call upon Xentha, Srvuali of the Darkness of Night for some nocturnal service. By being specialized the Srvuali had the chance for independent actions which, although dependent upon their particular makeup, increased their usability. Thus although Vieltor was a fire Srvuali, he was also chief Smith of the gods. Each Elemental had its own Srvuali: the Dehori of Darkness; the Hollri of Cold; the Triolini of Water; the Likiti of Earth; the Wamboli of the Sky; and the Promalti of Fire.

Note how Xeotam uses the terms "elemental" differently from how we might use it. To him, "Elemental" appears to be roughly analogous to the Powers(?) of the Cosmic Court, like Dame Darkness, Lord Light, etc. Although not 100%. 

 

[M Helsdon]

14 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The Xeotam Dialogues uses the term Likiti as a general term for Earth Runic beings. 

Yes, I know; it seems to be a Seshnelan, Ralian term. Am trying to find anything more about them. Have identified two definite, and two probable Likitae. 

[Eff]

I believe @scott-martin has/had a working theory which divided Earth goddesses into likitae- goddesses of land/terrain, aldryae- goddesses of flora/plants, and tilntae- goddesses of social/material concepts. I find it attractive (I'd add at least one more minor category), but I'll leave it to him to clarify.

Apart from that, if we look at the "snake leg" iconography as suggestive of a Likita goddess, then as far as I know it's definitely associated with Ernalda. It's also associated with Genert and Pamalt, though it would be stretching things a bit to call them goddesses or to propose a distaff "Likitus". Looking at the Glorantha Sourcebook, the Esrolian iconography there doesn't produce any more likely Likitae via snake imagery, barring perhaps Ty Kora Tek's scarf.

[M Helsdon]

46 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Note how Xeotam uses the terms "elemental" differently from how we might use it. To him, "Elemental" appears to be roughly analogous to the Powers(?) of the Cosmic Court, like Dame Darkness, Lord Light, etc. Although not 100%. 

Yes, none of the variant higher pantheons map entirely onto the Theyalan Cosmic Court.

16 minutes ago, Eff said:

I believe @scott-martin has/had a working theory which divided Earth goddesses into likitae- goddesses of land/terrain, aldryae- goddesses of flora/plants, and tilntae- goddesses of social/material concepts. I find it attractive (I'd add at least one more minor category), but I'll leave it to him to clarify.

Apart from that, if we look at the "snake leg" iconography as suggestive of a Likita goddess, then as far as I know it's definitely associated with Ernalda. It's also associated with Genert and Pamalt, though it would be stretching things a bit to call them goddesses or to propose a distaff "Likitus". Looking at the Glorantha Sourcebook, the Esrolian iconography there doesn't produce any more likely Likitae via snake imagery, barring perhaps Ty Kora Tek's scarf.

In Seshnela and Ralios there are a number of 'Snake Goddesses', which seems to be in part a local perspective on Earth Goddesses, and these are represented elsewhere by the Snake Mother guardians of Earth Temples. It is curious that in the West, the Land Goddesses and their progeny often themselves retain an ophidian nature (Seshna), whilst in central Genertela, snakes are an attribute  of the Earth Goddesses, their creatures, but they themselves are not serpents... 

Edited May 11, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Joerg]

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Yes, none of the variant higher pantheons map entirely onto the Theyalan Cosmic Court.

In Seshnela and Ralios there are a number of 'Snake Goddesses', which seems to be in part a local perspective on Earth Goddesses, and these are represented elsewhere by the Snake Mother guardians of Earth Temples. It is curious that in the West, the Land Goddesses and their progeny often themselves retain an ophidian nature (Seshna), whilst in central Genertela, snakes are an attribute  of the Earth Goddesses, their creatures, but they themselves are not serpents... 

That may be a feedback of the Hykimi origins, which is mostly absent in the Theyalan core lands.

We certainly get ophidian or part ophidian temple guardians at the Paps. The husband-protectors of Ernalda and Esrola are different, though. Veslarthan of the feathered (winged) javelin brings a serpentine quality of his own, and if Harono has anything in common with Berneel Arashgern, we get another phallic serpent. Heler uses lightning, Orlanth has theThunderbolt, and Argan Argar picks up Veskarthan's spear. Then there are the three rivers of Esrolia - the two joining at Rhigos, forming the mesopotamic heartlands of Esrolia, and the Lyksos in the north. All of them likely offshoots of Sshorg.

There appears to be less of the spear phallus in prominence where the Likiti are reported.

(The iconography chosen in The Gods War does suggest a similar ophidian body for Genert, but then that game makes a couple of unexpected choices.)

 

[Tindalos]

Of course, to muddy the waters even further (or in this instance should that be water the mud?) Likita is an Aldryami name meaning Earth Power. (GtG p. 65)

Other than that, the only references I know are in the Hero Wars era. The "Glorantha: Introduction to the Hero Wars" mentions the Likiti as a race much like humans, only made solely of Earth rather than a mixture of all elements, who live in the underground hero plane of Gamataler. (246. Gamataler itself is described in similar terms to Dara Happa's underworld of Veskerelgat/the Entekosiad's AnuDiDala.)

There was also the Likiti Elementals mentioned in Anaxial's Roster, which were the materialist version of Earth Elementals. (201) While things are no longer organized in that manner, it's worth mentioning that their Darkness equivalents (the Dadami) were similar to the Gloranthan Bestiary's Nyctalops, so it may be that something similar still exists.

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Eff said:

I find it attractive (I'd add at least one more minor category), but I'll leave it to him to clarify.

"Clarify." 😆I'm looking forward to that addition / refinement. One challenge facing the Eat "Prey" Love Hypothesis is its lack of gender sophistication or even a "room of her own." 

I love the question. In this context I would start by saying that there are two orders of entity here. "Likita" is most properly the primal earth whom Yelm seduced and then the elemental array of srvulae [sic] emanating from her. Likita herself appears very rarely and is probably a mask of "GA" or "GA TA." 

The likitas, on the other hand, are mostly female, which makes Doyang Likite, father of the brown vadelites, somewhat special. His feminine relatives include Britha (mother and father), Seshna (aunt), the mysterious Kalaeda and in at least one genealogy Ernalda. However, Ernalda does not appear west of Wenelia in this era and not before circa 230 even there. I would be reluctant to project anything from her modern cult into this material, especially until we can see her complicity in the larger dragon consciousness narrative.

They appear as dragons and are friendly with dragons. I suspect the Pelorian Serpent Mothers (WF 7) are a parallel manifestation but have not made a real effort to find out as the Eat/Love ("elf") vertex consumes my limited brainpower right now. They confer both authority and when pushed tectonic power.

While checking these details I find a page that might interest Martin on "The Army of Seshnela" that starts "the rapid rise of the kingdom . . . " but he might already have it.

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by scott-martin

[Sir_Godspeed]

41 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Likita is an Aldryami name meaning Earth Power.

Headcanon: Early human settlers throughout Greatwood learnt of the term from the elves and applied it to earth beings themselves, including the goddess otherwise only known as Seshna. 

So, basically, it was an exonym turned secondary title.

[Eff]

47 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

"Clarify." I'm looking forward to that addition / refinement. One challenge facing the Eat "Prey" Love Hypothesis is its lack of gender sophistication or even a "room of her own." 

 

Well, I think that at a minimum the gor/kor/tor complex should be pulled out a bit. I think you could also pull out craft goddesses (though these are less well-defined in existing materials, overlapping in names with other goddesses) as a distinct category of their own. Perhaps these could be distinct vertices instead- the gorae as "Prey"+Shape, the craft goddesses as Love+Shape? Which gives us a fourth corner for the square, and a total of six vertices. It would be better if there were eight, for the numerology, but I remember a source which indicates that there are six daughters of Asrelia- the familiar Ernalda/Esrola/Maran trio, and then three others that I think are representative of the high crafts? (Pottery, weaving, ?) 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

That may be a feedback of the Hykimi origins, which is mostly absent in the Theyalan core lands.

Perhaps this absence speaks to the "war" against the Serpentbeast Brotherhood.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

14 minutes ago, Eff said:

Well, I think that at a minimum the gor/kor/tor complex should be pulled out a bit. I think you could also pull out craft goddesses (though these are less well-defined in existing materials, overlapping in names with other goddesses) as a distinct category of their own. Perhaps these could be distinct vertices instead- the gorae as "Prey"+Shape, the craft goddesses as Love+Shape? Which gives us a fourth corner for the square, and a total of six vertices. It would be better if there were eight, for the numerology, but I remember a source which indicates that there are six daughters of Asrelia- the familiar Ernalda/Esrola/Maran trio, and then three others that I think are representative of the high crafts? (Pottery, weaving, ?) 

Animal Mothers are presented as daughters of Ernalda, but they could just as easily be daughters of Asrelia (especially given that Asrelia-Ernalda-Voria are in a sense a trinity). Animal Mothers obviously bring in the Beast Rune and the whole Hykim thing, but then the Growth/Fertility archetype brings in the Plant Rune and Aldrya/Flamal. 

Arguably, both Plant and Beast (and Man, or rather, the physical aspects regarding growth, reproduction in them) can be placed together in the Growth/Fertility archetype, so the distinction might be superfluous. 

This still gives us the "trinity" of Hard Earth, Fertile Earth, and Spiritual/Communal Earth though, and if there is a fourth... a Hidden/Transcendent Earth? (but then how would it be different from Spiritual Communal Earth except by degree?) Immature Earth? (Voria, spring? Feels a bit forced, I admit). Dead Earth? Not death as in infertility, but rather as in the deceased, the blessed dead. To Kora Tek. Rest. 

EDIT: This would mean pulling Hard/Bloody Earth and Dead/Hidden Earth apart from the kor/gor/tor complex. Not sure if that is the extrication you specifically wanted, though.

Edited May 11, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Sir_Godspeed]

Incidentally, this could give us two pairs of Earth: A pair of Physical-Spiritual Fertile Earths ("Esrolia, Ernalda" for lack of a better term), and a pair of Physical-Spiritual Dark Earths ("Maran, Ty Kora Tek"). 

These dichotomies are obviously grossly oversimplified, and Earth isn't that much into dichotomies anyway, but, well, a square has four sides, so this could be seen as some kind of balance if that were a mythopoeic goal.

[M Helsdon]

Thank you for the array of interesting ideas. I was researching the Likitae to populate a couple of footnotes.

[davecake]

On 5/12/2020 at 5:52 AM, scott-martin said:

They appear as dragons and are friendly with dragons. I suspect the Pelorian Serpent Mothers (WF 7) are a parallel manifestation but have not made a real effort to find out as the Eat/Love ("elf") vertex consumes my limited brainpower right now.

It makes a lot of sense that 'ancient' Dendara has serpent connections. And when Yelm approaches Dendara as her husband, he does so in serpent form as BerNeel Arashagern. To the modern Yelm cult its a bit of prevaricating about the high pure Yelm not being involved in anything so mundane as sex except in his devolved parts, but it seems more that ancient Earth worship in Peloria saw serpents as Fertility, and the male half of that was incorporated into the Yelm cult. 

It makes some sense that the serpent power is associated with Fertility rather than Earth directly, but the association is close? 

[Borygon]

On 5/12/2020 at 1:10 AM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Incidentally, this could give us two pairs of Earth: A pair of Physical-Spiritual Fertile Earths ("Esrolia, Ernalda" for lack of a better term), and a pair of Physical-Spiritual Dark Earths ("Maran, Ty Kora Tek"). 

These dichotomies are obviously grossly oversimplified, and Earth isn't that much into dichotomies anyway, but, well, a square has four sides, so this could be seen as some kind of balance if that were a mythopoeic goal.

I am pretty sure it is three sets of three, there being a single goddess for each domain in every generation

something like :

Dark Earth   ------ Spiritual/Fertile Earth  ----------  Fertile Earth with no spiritual side.

   -------------------------  GATA -----------------------------

      I                                          I                                                 I

Ty Kora Tek                      Asrelia                               No idea. Aldrya?

                                               I

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I                                              I                                                    I

Maran Gor                       Ernalda                                        Esrolia

                                               I                                                        

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I                                              I                                                    I

Babeester Gor                 Voria                                          Eiritha

This also works as a square, with Ernalda in the center. There might be one trinity higher up with Gata and her byproducts/sisters (Ana Gor?) but they are all dead now. It also takes into account three being a number associated with earth as it is third element

Edited May 15, 2020 by Borygon

[Snugz]

Nice parallels with the maiden/mother/crone "three faces" of Camenura of Cam's Well in Prax (although unofficial?); and she as-written had very strong association with serpents-- both from an Earth aspect and the Praxian river-serpents side of things.

[Borygon]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

It makes a lot of sense that 'ancient' Dendara has serpent connections. And when Yelm approaches Dendara as her husband, he does so in serpent form as BerNeel Arashagern. To the modern Yelm cult its a bit of prevaricating about the high pure Yelm not being involved in anything so mundane as sex except in his devolved parts, but it seems more that ancient Earth worship in Peloria saw serpents as Fertility, and the male half of that was incorporated into the Yelm cult. 

It makes some sense that the serpent power is associated with Fertility rather than Earth directly, but the association is close? 

On one hand:

• Dendara is (well, was) a storm deity so she should have some association with mammals.
• I am not even sure if she was Yelms wife at this point in (god)time

On another:

• This would explain Entakos Complex using that staff as their symbol better then it being a severed manhood of Umath.
• Dendara as "earth in the sky" makes absolute sense as a snake, either with wings (sky) or with sheep features (storm). I think I prefer Dendera as a wooly snake better. Stick (snake) with wool (sheep) is pretty much a definition of distaff, which works for Dendaras connection to weaving.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Borygon

[French Desperate WindChild]

Aren't Esrolia (and other seed goddesses ) and Aldrya daugters of Ernalda ?

what I understood (but i m clearly not an expert) is Ernalda is THE woman with all powers of life and earth, then her daughters gain one aspect ( live for fight => Bab, young life => voria, plant life => aldrya, feed for life => esrolia and eirithra and others goddesses, etc..  )

In this view, we could say that asrelia is a daughter of Ernlada as the old woman aspect.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 hours ago, Borygon said:

I am pretty sure it is three sets of three, there being a single goddess for each domain in every generation

something like :

Dark Earth   ------ Spiritual/Fertile Earth  ----------  Fertile Earth with no spiritual side.

   -------------------------  GATA -----------------------------

      I                                          I                                                 I

Ty Kora Tek                      Asrelia                               No idea. Aldrya?

                                               I

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I                                              I                                                    I

Maran Gor                       Ernalda                                        Esrolia

                                               I                                                        

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I                                              I                                                    I

Babeester Gor                 Voria                                          Eiritha

This also works as a square, with Ernalda in the center. There might be one trinity higher up with Gata and her byproducts/sisters (Ana Gor?) but they are all dead now. It also takes into account three being a number associated with earth as it is third element

The issue I have with this is that both Babs and Voria are infertile (one due to vocation, another due to status as a maiden), while Eirithia is supremely fertile. I don't quite feel like it evens out. 

 

Additionally, I'm not sure if the same divisions would exist at the Asrelia/TKT-level of devolution as it does at the MG/Ernalda/Esrola, but admittedly it does look pretty in terms of symmetry.

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 hours ago, Borygon said:

On one hand:

• Dendara is (well, was) a storm deity so she should have some association with mammals.
• I am not even sure if she was Yelms wife at this point in (god)time

On another:

• This would explain Entakos Complex using that staff as their symbol better then it being a severed manhood of Umath.
• Dendara as "earth in the sky" makes absolute sense as a snake, either with wings (sky) or with sheep features (storm). I think I prefer Dendera as a wooly snake better. Stick (snake) with wool (sheep) is pretty much a definition of distaff, which works for Dendaras connection to weaving.

Dendara is an Earth deity. She's not a storm deity. She's the Esrolia personage; Ernalda doesn't really appear in Pelanda except as an enemy god.

Entekos, née Serenha, is a separate deity. She's the Storm deity with the phallic symbol.

They appear to have some close relationship; a marriage? They are worshipped even now in central Peloria together to bring rain.

They aren't the same. Even in the Entekosiad, it demonstrates they are separate.

The combination of the two might be the origin of Sedenya: earth in middle air

[Borygon]

44 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Dendara is an Earth deity. She's not a storm deity. She's the Esrolia personage; Ernalda doesn't really appear in Pelanda except as an enemy god.

Entekos, née Serenha, is a separate deity. She's the Storm deity with the phallic symbol.

They appear to have some close relationship; a marriage? They are worshipped even now in central Peloria together to bring rain.

They aren't the same. Even in the Entekosiad, it demonstrates they are separate.

The combination of the two might be the origin of Sedenya: earth in middle air

You could make a good argument for her being : earth, storm, moon and sky.  She is earth in the sky which, archaically can either mean storm, or literally can mean moon, it can mean the direct location of the hole created by Umaths birth in the sky dome (I am supporter of this theory, would give her a general star-mother persona well fitting for a main solar female deity, and still leaves a niche for Entakos as Umaths afterglow. There is a problem of her spawning all these stars before her marriage though.). There is also her ascending to the sky due to marriage with Yelm. She is sky rune untill gods of glorantha comes out and retcons it.

I think their relationship can be explained in the easiest way as twins, with Entakos being the "evil" (as in, not a definition of virtue all the time) one. I am assuming Entakos as the dominant one and leader of that branch of Umaths family because she has Doburdan that is storm deity and Dendara being subservient to Yelm and being counted as of Yelms family  (which I am sure makes sense to Dara Happans).

I might have messed up something as I am drunk and my notes are a mess.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Borygon

[scott-martin]

50 minutes ago, Borygon said:

my notes are a mess.

The Empire and the White Moon welcome Plentonic Debate.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Dendara is an Earth deity. She's not a storm deity. She's the Esrolia personage; Ernalda doesn't really appear in Pelanda except as an enemy god.

 

I don't think that's right. The more obvious Esrolia analogue in Peloria is Oria, Lodril's wife, and mother of plants and animals and goddess of agriculture. 

If Dendara is any Earth deity, I can't easily couple her with any other than Ernalda, tbh, although she's clearly a more "neutered" (power-wise) version. 

That being said, I kinda love the idea that she's actually Heler(a), even if there might not be much canonically for that.

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I don't think that's right. The more obvious Esrolia analogue in Peloria is Oria, Lodril's wife, and mother of plants and animals and goddess of agriculture. 

If Dendara is any Earth deity, I can't easily couple her with any other than Ernalda, tbh, although she's clearly a more "neutered" (power-wise) version. 

That being said, I kinda love the idea that she's actually Heler(a), even if there might not be much canonically for that.

I meant that she is identified with Esrolia in Peloria, not that we would identify her with Esrolia.

Ernalda is an enemy goddess of the South in Peloria; the "top" Earth goddess is identified by the Pelorians isn't called Ernalda.