Likitae

[Sir_Godspeed]

51 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I meant that she is identified with Esrolia in Peloria, not that we would identify her with Esrolia.

Ernalda is an enemy goddess of the South in Peloria; the "top" Earth goddess is identified by the Pelorians isn't called Ernalda.

In terms of names, purely? Maybe, though I don't personally know of any specific instances where they associated Dendara with any Orlanthi goddess. The only thing we have to go form is the story of how the promiscuous goddess Erlanda was kicked out along with her husband Erlandus. So "Ernalda" is obviously not a name they'll view positively - but that doesn't mean they'll associate Dendara with Esrola, though, at least not that I know of.

 

But, in terms of function, Oria is definitely the Fertile Earth. If anything, she's performs the functions of Esrola AND Ernalda, at least for commoners. 

[Nick Brooke]

8 hours ago, scott-martin said:

The Empire and the White Moon welcome Plentonic Debate.

This peace-loving forum is no place for overtly threatening language.

Borygon, I assure you Scott is not about to arrest and ‘disappear’ you. We wouldn’t stand for it.

[Eff]

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I don't think that's right. The more obvious Esrolia analogue in Peloria is Oria, Lodril's wife, and mother of plants and animals and goddess of agriculture. 

If Dendara is any Earth deity, I can't easily couple her with any other than Ernalda, tbh, although she's clearly a more "neutered" (power-wise) version. 

That being said, I kinda love the idea that she's actually Heler(a), even if there might not be much canonically for that.

Well, to go back to that multipartite model, Dendara is far more purely a tilnta goddess, and of course Tilnta herself is generally identified with Uleria, who if she has any elemental associations at all, are (indirect) Lunar and Solar ones. 

I think that, to drop into a more historicist/less mythical viewpoint for a moment, that Pelorian religion (as we have it today) and Kethaelan religion (as we have it today) have a broad difference in that Kethaelan religion fused together their various Earth goddesses into a single figure they called Ernalda (who was "originally" likely the likita-goddess of "Ernaldela", the drowned land beneath the sea) who wears all the various masks of the Earth in one, and in Peloria(n city-states) we have a firm split between the goddess who reigns over the actual process of planting crops and the goddess who reigns over the things which make us human (and in turn, the goddess who reigns over the unrestrained, suppressed urges within our selves- but among the Kethaelans this figure is split into at least two divinities and distanced from Ernalda directly). 

But that regnant divinity is also a source of sovereignty, which is very tricky within the Pelorian mode, so I think that "Raibanth Dendara" is largely presented to us as lacking in her Earth connections that are a bit more... earthy... because it became necessary to try and retrofit her as a celestial goddess. So Plentonius presents her almost as an emanation of Yelm, possibly attempting to recapitulate the parthenogenetic (or neaniagenetic, if you want to be strict about things) aspects of how Dayzatar reproduced. There's probably an "upland Dendara" or a modern "Pelandan Dendara" that has rites and practices that are a bit more earthly in their nature. (Clean-hand Dendara versus green-thumb Dendara.)

And of course, if Dendara is the sovereignty source, then the speculations about Yelm as a title become a lot more interesting...

[scott-martin]

10 hours ago, Eff said:

And of course, if Dendara is the sovereignty source, then the speculations about Yelm as a title become a lot more interesting...

Great stuff from all throughout this thread. More extensive travel + journey always awaits ("where she is you now must follow") but there's an interesting twist to the craft goddesses where Stone was the fourth corner. Stone's gender presentation is less clear early when he was alive but this is a direction to explore for goddesses who may have once had a family but now drift in the interstices. Mapping the "gor" aspects (I think most were originally likitas) separately might end up telling us something about "fourth corner mind" and efforts to divide, conquer and reduce primal earths to more manageable roles. Or not!

It is thrilling to see so many people really engaging with the Entekosiad. Your explorations are the future. 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

16 hours ago, Eff said:

Well, to go back to that multipartite model, Dendara is far more purely a tilnta goddess, and of course Tilnta herself is generally identified with Uleria, who if she has any elemental associations at all, are (indirect) Lunar and Solar ones. 

I think that, to drop into a more historicist/less mythical viewpoint for a moment, that Pelorian religion (as we have it today) and Kethaelan religion (as we have it today) have a broad difference in that Kethaelan religion fused together their various Earth goddesses into a single figure they called Ernalda (who was "originally" likely the likita-goddess of "Ernaldela", the drowned land beneath the sea) who wears all the various masks of the Earth in one, and in Peloria(n city-states) we have a firm split between the goddess who reigns over the actual process of planting crops and the goddess who reigns over the things which make us human (and in turn, the goddess who reigns over the unrestrained, suppressed urges within our selves- but among the Kethaelans this figure is split into at least two divinities and distanced from Ernalda directly). 

But that regnant divinity is also a source of sovereignty, which is very tricky within the Pelorian mode, so I think that "Raibanth Dendara" is largely presented to us as lacking in her Earth connections that are a bit more... earthy... because it became necessary to try and retrofit her as a celestial goddess. So Plentonius presents her almost as an emanation of Yelm, possibly attempting to recapitulate the parthenogenetic (or neaniagenetic, if you want to be strict about things) aspects of how Dayzatar reproduced. There's probably an "upland Dendara" or a modern "Pelandan Dendara" that has rites and practices that are a bit more earthly in their nature. (Clean-hand Dendara versus green-thumb Dendara.)

And of course, if Dendara is the sovereignty source, then the speculations about Yelm as a title become a lot more interesting...

Very well put on the difference between Pelorian/Dara Happan and Kethaelan mother goddess appraches. 

I think my only caveat here is that our sources skew towards the upper class urban Dara Happan perspective, where Dendara is, as you say, strongly separated from the physical processes of agriculture and such. However, I am not sure if the opposite is true for Oria in the eyes of the rural/villager Lodrilites. This might just be my own bias, but I think Oria is not just limited to agricultural work for them. She is the village goodwife, the household administrator, the mother, etc., just as Lodril is the village husband, headman, father, etc. Basically very relevant as behavioral models for most "common folk", in that unflattering, everyday way that's only possible when neither deity needs to be Super-Perfect-Never-Even-Farted-Just-Trust-Me-On-This-One kinda gods. 

I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get of the subaltern perspective. Noble Dara Happans probably do not pay her much mind. 

And I agree that Dendara's lack of earthly association - if she is an Earth goddess, which it seems she is of *some* kind - is conspicuous by its absence. 

Sneaky sneaky DHs.

[Qizilbashwoman]

It's important to remember that Official Dara Happan Solar Religion is not a good understanding of what is actually happening in Dara Happan religion.