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Question for RQ GM’s about NPC creation

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That said an excellent addition to a GM guide would be some sort of simplified NPC rules. Because honestly who wants to have to keep track of 4 different NPCs Rune Points, dozens of Rune percentages, another dozen or so skills, location hit points, and everything?

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I could try whipping something up for the JC, since it sounds like there's demand (and since I haven't written my next MotM yet anyway). Something like this for a list?

  • Nobility: Village Chieftain (not clan or tribal chief), Thane, Storm Voice, Rune Priestess of Ernalda, Scribe (maybe)
  • Free Folk: (Carls in HQG language) Farmer/Landholder, Herder, Shaman, Crafter, Entertainer, Hunter, Fisher, Healer, Merchant
  • Unfree Folk: Thrall, Tenant Farmer, Stickpicker
  • Outlaws: Bandit Chief, Bandit, Lunar Deserter

NPC suggestions cheerfully welcomed!

My thought process being to focus on common, simple Heortling NPCs, and then maybe branch out from there. An issue of Praxian NPCs is probably where I'd go next. If people are into it, I'll try making these up as B&W, or at least printer-friendly, for ease of use at the table. Should note that I'm a writer, not a graphic designer, so at best they'll be functional, not pretty.

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I don't worry about stats when GMing anymore, but I guess statted NPCs are a way for new players to get a better grip of the system and the setting. They were for me.

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2 hours ago, Crel said:

I could try whipping something up for the JC, since it sounds like there's demand (and since I haven't written my next MotM yet anyway). Something like this for a list?

  • Nobility: Village Chieftain (not clan or tribal chief), Thane, Storm Voice, Rune Priestess of Ernalda, Scribe (maybe)
  • Free Folk: (Carls in HQG language) Farmer/Landholder, Herder, Shaman, Crafter, Entertainer, Hunter, Fisher, Healer, Merchant
  • Unfree Folk: Thrall, Tenant Farmer, Stickpicker
  • Outlaws: Bandit Chief, Bandit, Lunar Deserter

NPC suggestions cheerfully welcomed!

My thought process being to focus on common, simple Heortling NPCs, and then maybe branch out from there. An issue of Praxian NPCs is probably where I'd go next. If people are into it, I'll try making these up as B&W, or at least printer-friendly, for ease of use at the table. Should note that I'm a writer, not a graphic designer, so at best they'll be functional, not pretty.

This would be great. Then maybe a second one covering elder races?

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8 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

This would be great. Then maybe a second one covering elder races?

I'll probably go a bit slower than you'd like :D. Heortlings, then Praxians, then who knows. It'll really depend on how long it takes me to fill out a sheet once I get into a groove.

I've just finished up a rough draft of the template, and a sample Orlanthi bandit. If you've got feedback on what else would be useful for you as a GM, let me know! (Ignore the # instead of Armor pts, I forgot to fill that out!) I anticipate fiddling with the layout and design of this somewhat still, but I'm not sure what additional information or marking-off charts would be useful off the top of my head.

NPC Template.png

Orlanthi bandit.png

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I really like that, @Crel!  It's similar to a sheet I used to use (back in the RQ2 era), that I've been meaning to recreate/update for RQG.

I'm going to make some suggestions, but please take these in the spirit of "minor improvements to an already-very-good project" rather than "a litany of dire errors!"

It's a bit more than I'd typically create/use for "random-encounter NPC" such as rando-bandit fought on the road between point A & point B (which are the actual points of interest)... most of the skills, for example, I'd expect to be irrelevant.  But that's me, and my tastes...

Modifications that I'd suggest:

Don't duplicate info... Rune Points and Magic Points in the RH column duplicate the info in the counter-tracks below the ManRune (more on this later).  And once you've given his cult as "Orlanth Adventurous" up front, we don't need his Rune Pool labeled (an NPC with multiple Rune Pools is almost certainly interesting-enough to merit a full sheet instead of a "minor NPC" short-sheet!)

Eliminate the "Armor" from the LH, for this use:  if the foe's armor is impressive enough to list every piece by description (instead of just APs for combat) they (again) likely merit a full sheet over a short-sheet.

Add a line for "quick description" or "overall impression" or somesuch... if deemed important, "ragged leathers and furs" (or "lunar infantry standard issue" (or whatever)) could go here.

Add a line for "noteworthy gear" -- even "Bandit #3" may have lucked into an unusually fine sword, or whatever.

Shrink the ManRune a bit, overall, but keep location-boxes same size or even enlarge them; we only need a hint of the figure (we know this theme from the regular sheet), but info in boxes is critical.

Replace the "AP: #" in the ManRune boxes with "AP: _____" (also maybe L-justify instead of center, the actual writing space is cramped, & space on left of "AP" is going to waste).

Don't bother with the full counter-tracks for HPs / MPs / RPs.  We only need space for totals, not every possible score:  when the 11HP bandit takes 3HP to the Left Leg, we cross off the "11" and write "8", but the "9" & the "10" were un-used:  more wasted space!

I suggest the "MP" entry in the LH column be done as

"MP: # ______________"

and MP + Spirit Magic spells be boxed together; similarly box Runes + RP + Rune Spells.

Thus, "Hit Points" is just gone from the LH column altogether, MP & RP is gone from the RH column.

I'd place Passions up immediately below the Characteristics -- they are the main cue for how this NPC will behave -- and bring up the Skills-list to immediately follow them (mechanics-wise, Augmenting Skills is the most-frequent use of Passions).

Re-jiggering all these details may call for re-working to overall layout.

Despite all my suggestions, I reiterate:  I /really/ like this.  It's closer to my "ideal" minor-NPC sheet than anything I've ever seen anyone else do!

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10 hours ago, g33k said:

I'm going to make some suggestions, but please take these in the spirit of "minor improvements to an already-very-good project" rather than "a litany of dire errors!"

Feedback's certainly appreciated! I'll take a more thorough look over your comments once I'm back at my desktop, but overall the seem helpful. I've started out pretty much just mimicking Chaosium's NPC statblock in their published works. I see this as probably an iterative work, not a one-and-done situation. It'll be a while before I actually get to test it out at the table myself, probably, but if I can make it useful for me in my sessions on Discord I may be able to take it for a playtest sooner.

I'm probably gonna see if I can simplify it enough to get two statblocks on the same page. I suspect they'd have to be "mook" statblocks, not suitable for more complex NPCs, but could still be useful.

Another option would be a full-page version for each archetype, and then for archetypes suitable for it, a streamlined version based on the same characteristics & skills, which would be two statblocks per page. Anyway, food for thought.

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32 minutes ago, Crel said:

... I'm probably gonna see if I can simplify it enough to get two statblocks on the same page ...

Honestly:  aim for 4/page.

Yes, it's a bit mook-ish; but also just for "ordinary interactions" with people.

I mean, every shopkeep and ragged bandit is an individual with hopes and dreams and a full character-sheet.  But all the GM needs at the table is social skills (and maybe a Rumor Table) for the shopkeep, and combat & morale info for the bandit... the fact that one oddly has a 75% in Lore:  Kralorelan Paintings, and the other owns an extraordinarily-outsized collection of fishing gear... doesn't matter.

 

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The Pegasus Plateau has a decent number of low level npc-stats, so I think that using those and other generic npc-stats from other books gets the dms enough material.

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For me, what would be wonderful to have NPCs in The Gamemaster’s Guide are:

- Stats for NPCs is something that some GMs would use every single time they pick up the game to play, and would reduce resistance to run the game. Want ease to create a campaign? Just use these when short on time... it’sreally similarto the hand outs for new players included, like Vasana, except for GMs.
When I had RQ when I was younger, creating NPCs always became the reason I chose to play other games. It became the game I admired for its style, but just seemed like too much work to play. Same now. So important there are easy solutions for those GMs who wants less work. Looks like I have to buy a ton of books, or create NPC or buy pdfs, none are desirable. Make it more accessible, please. Let the GMs have their own easy to use templates for opponents, like the players have pre-gens. Included in the core books. GM Guide, my preference.

- So, if it is in the GM Guide, it reduces the number of books I need to buy AND USE (big one!). To be honest, it looks to me more and more expensive to play RQ in practice... Unless you make up characters on the fly we are told we must buy adventure books or pdfs to make it work. Again, expensive and unpractical. Give people an easy way to start making their adventures by themselves. That should be priority one with a campaign guide (yes, I know, people want to make money off this..). This way, you will have more people actually playing it, me included.... I’m started to be on the fence.. A game like RQ with such an immersive setting that requires a lot of prep to make it real, should go a long way to make it as easy as possible for the GM in other ways.

- I’m sure the GM Guide is going to have quite a bit of cool stuff, but also stuff rarely use (I’m thinking of weather tables in the core rules). Again, how can not NPCs be more important that “completist” stuff, some of it rarely used? Compare to use every time.

- About bought adventures some mention: I’m afraid I won’t buy them for NPCs because it is not practical. I might pick up a book to see how they think making adventures, for inspiration, or run one or two. That’s it. The problem with pre-mades is every really strong GM heavily adapts their adventures to the players. Their interests and emotional make-up. This is why even good pre-made adventures rarely work out of the box for players in practice (and some aren’t that good). Because the GM knows how to make it special for themselves and the group. That’s why I always end up making my own adventures, like so many. In RQ it is complicated to create NPCs, and having stat sheets makes it much easier to make it vivid, I find, as it taxes memory less and makes it more real, imo. You have something to lean on (though I am sure the wingers do a great job).
 

- For the reasons stated above I actually prefer to have stat blocks in the GM Guide, not anywhere else, for GMs who are in between wingers and who not enjoy making adventures for a new game a full time profession or very expensive.. also, it is practical. So, no new book with NPCs, after consideration, that’s my vote. Also, new players/GMs will love it, I think.

Edited by Fred

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On 5/13/2020 at 5:27 AM, GAZZA said:

That said an excellent addition to a GM guide would be some sort of simplified NPC rules. Because honestly who wants to have to keep track of 4 different NPCs Rune Points, dozens of Rune percentages, another dozen or so skills, location hit points, and everything?

Perfectly said... this is the strongest reason to include something. It doesn’t really hurt, and wins in so many ways for many players. I still think it is simply easier to include actual stats though. That’s what everyone is talking about making, by the way, because they have realised there is a demand for it. That’s why Chaosium shoukd take notice to make it easy for players.

 

On 5/13/2020 at 7:46 AM, Puckohue said:

I don't worry about stats when GMing anymore, but I guess statted NPCs are a way for new players to get a better grip of the system and the setting. They were for me.

Again, I hope Chaosium looks at this thread and truly considers what you said. It was for me as well. And for many more players playing a much simpler game than RQ. Is the goal of RQ to be elite, and difficult to get into? Or a game that also caters for more casual gamers?

Edited by Fred

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On 5/13/2020 at 7:40 AM, Crel said:

I could try whipping something up for the JC, since it sounds like there's demand (and since I haven't written my next MotM yet anyway). Something like this for a list?

  • Nobility: Village Chieftain (not clan or tribal chief), Thane, Storm Voice, Rune Priestess of Ernalda, Scribe (maybe)
  • Free Folk: (Carls in HQG language) Farmer/Landholder, Herder, Shaman, Crafter, Entertainer, Hunter, Fisher, Healer, Merchant
  • Unfree Folk: Thrall, Tenant Farmer, Stickpicker
  • Outlaws: Bandit Chief, Bandit, Lunar Deserter

NPC suggestions cheerfully welcomed!

My thought process being to focus on common, simple Heortling NPCs, and then maybe branch out from there. An issue of Praxian NPCs is probably where I'd go next. If people are into it, I'll try making these up as B&W, or at least printer-friendly, for ease of use at the table. Should note that I'm a writer, not a graphic designer, so at best they'll be functional, not pretty.

Good initiative. But I’m afraid a lot of gamers are truly like antique-collectors. They buy stuff as much for the quality of books and images. So while I encourage you to do this, I truly hope Chaosium includes stats in a core book.

That said, go for it, but I won’t likely be a customer (I’m one of the hoarders...).

Edited by Fred

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2 hours ago, Fred said:

For me, what would be wonderful to have NPCs in The Gamemaster’s Guide are:

- Stats for NPCs is something that some GMs would use every single time they pick up the game to play, and would reduce resistance to run the game. Want ease to create a campaign? Just use these when short on time... it’sreally similarto the hand outs for new players included, like Vasana, except for GMs.
When I had RQ when I was younger, creating NPCs always became the reason I chose to play other games. It became the game I admired for its style, but just seemed like too much work to play. Same now. So important there are easy solutions for those GMs who wants less work. Looks like I have to buy a ton of books, or create NPC or buy pdfs, none are desirable. Make it more accessible, please. Let the GMs have their own easy to use templates for opponents, like the players have pre-gens. Included in the core books. GM Guide, my preference.

I mean, there are free and cheap published adventures for RQG that already have statted NPCs. Now, you can certainly argue that there aren't enough, or that there aren't enough varieties, but where do you stop? One of the supplements for RQ2 was an entire book of Rune levels for every published cult, and I understand it sold very poorly because NPCs sans an adventure environment are just numbers. Honestly I think the right place for stats is in adventures, of which we have several already and doubtless many more to come.

For RQ3, for example, Into the Troll Realms had pretty much all the troll stats you'd ever need. (And for RQ2 Trollpak had something similar). Similar supplements for Aldryami and Mostali would do the trick there too (though I presume they are less popular than Uz, given they that have tended historically to get shorter shrift).

Certainly there will be parts of the GM guide that you won't use, but a bunch of stats for NPCs is probably something I'll never use. Whereas a few optional rules on running simplified NPCs would be something I use right out of the gate and, indeed, is something I'm already using (it would be nice to have an official write up of something though).

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4 hours ago, GAZZA said:

RQ2 was an entire book of Rune levels

RuneMasters:  that is one of the *very* few RQii supplements I don't have (when I've remembered to whom I lent my trollpak...). 

But Fangs, Militia and Mercenaries, Trolls and Trollkin, Creatures of Chaos, I did have and I did use a lot.

 

7 hours ago, Fred said:

Stats for NPCs is something that some GMs would use every single time they pick up the game to play, and would reduce resistance to run the game

My vote isn't to clutter main rules with stats, but a series of cheap supplements.  

I also like stats to be in a separate block (best even a separate book) than the rest of the adventure, since they do break up the read...

On 5/13/2020 at 7:46 AM, Puckohue said:

I don't worry about stats when GMing anymore

I've roleplayed RQ from the early 80s, and I've always kept track of full damage for NPCs and their weapons - as its often the cumulative effect that brings them down, not a killer blow.  But mainly, if I didn't I wouldn't have a clue what's going on! The first thing that get's scribbled down on the NPC writeup is who they're fighting.  And when an NPC is dead I write it in very big letters, because it's embarrassing when the players point out (very kindly; they're a nice bunch) that they've already offed that one... I surprised that not everyone does it, and am feeling a little inadequate now! (Who did fatigue in RQiii?)

As I've mentioned, I've developed a program to generate stuff.  It's for my own use, but it takes about an hour or so to set up a data file defining a few distributions, and then it will go away and generate as much as I want without user input.

The outputs in the downloads section, here: https://basicroleplaying.org/files/file/833-npc-squads-txtzip-npc-squads-pdfzip/

I'm very time limited (hence the program, such things are very quick to code), but would be more than happy to team up with someone to produce something more professional for the Jonstown Compendium?

 

 

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On 5/16/2020 at 5:14 AM, GAZZA said:

Honestly I think the right place for stats is in adventures, of which we have several already and doubtless many more to come.

That is incredibly impractical, to be honest. Keeping an extra 5-7 books or more to cover up most wide range options or so because you need to find that soldier.. While you might not use it, in a GM Guide, my point is that different GMs use different things anyway, so that point is (partly) invalid. In 5e they wanted to make gaming as easy as possible for GMs. Some obviously don’t need it, and prefer to do everything from scratch. But the one big thing 5e got right was to let the it be easy to play their game, not hard. RQ is already hard here. I’m fine with not convincing everyone of this obviously, but I think it should be in Chaosium’s interest to make them game much easier to play for the ones who have little time, like most people do. It is time-consuming anyways as it is, for some of us. I like RQ, but if it is unnecessarily impractical I am one of those who gets very turned off by it. Fine, not for you, but I am sure you’ll not die if something is included for other players.. 😉

A really well-produced hardback with interesting NPC variations like Troll Shaman etc would also work, as long as it is one book. 
 

On 5/16/2020 at 10:38 AM, Stephen L said:

My vote isn't to clutter main rules with stats, but a series of cheap supplements.  

My vote would in that case be just ONE really nice hardback instead, with plenty of variations. But I still prefer 15-20 pages in the GM Guide.

 

On 5/16/2020 at 10:38 AM, Stephen L said:

I also like stats to be in a separate block (best even a separate book) than the rest of the adventure, since they do break up the read...

I've roleplayed RQ from the early 80s, and I've always kept track of full damage for NPCs and their weapons - as its often the cumulative effect that brings them down, not a killer blow.  But mainly, if I didn't I wouldn't have a clue what's going on! The first thing that get's scribbled down on the NPC writeup is who they're fighting.  And when an NPC is dead I write it in very big letters, because it's embarrassing when the players point out (very kindly; they're a nice bunch) that they've already offed that one... I surprised that not everyone does it, and am feeling a little inadequate now! (Who did fatigue in RQiii?)

I think players pick up if you are a bit sloppy about things in combat, more in the sense that it becomes so easy to half-cheat as a GM etc... not making combat the experience it deserves. The opposite spectrum of this is a downside as well, be too meticulous, of course. But you hit the jackpot, for a lot of GMs keeping a bit track of this and taking the opponents seriously enough you know the armor etc will make it more real, and to do that, I suspect most of need a bit of support on paper.

 

On 5/16/2020 at 10:38 AM, Stephen L said:

I'm very time limited (hence the program, such things are very quick to code), but would be more than happy to team up with someone to produce something more professional for the Jonstown Compendium?

Given all the comments, may I suggest something different? That a group of very serious players here actually ask if they can team up with Chaosium, where they do the groundwork of creating NPCs, but get a bit of feedback and support/help from Chaosium, but also have them commission art. I.e. more of a adventure writing contract, where they make the book in HARDBACK. :) Hardback because it is nicer and lasts longer if used often. Pay for writers would be a little less, of course, since there is not as much text. Chaosium don’t need to use as much of their own, more expensive hours, to pay for the creation of the book.

This way, we get huge quality in content, hopefully, backed by them and a few pieces of nice art. While the contributors would get a smaller share of pay, relatively, more people would buy it, it is less fuss for Chaosium, and they can also use some entries from previous work as groundwork to make it even easier.
Also, it would most likely come out a little faster than other Chaosium books.

I may not have outlined the above plan perfectly (please adjust it), but would some people think that would be cool?
Of course, a few entries in the GM Guide would solve this...

 

Edited by Fred
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i think its probably fairly unrealistic, although it would be cool.

Ideally a jonestown compendium project would try and follow the layout and structure NPCs are given in adventure books though, rather than having a different layout (consistency is key to being able to quickly use them).

I'm quite new to the system so not confident making NPCs yet, but im pretty good with inDesign and could probably knock together a layout to roughly match the chaosium stuff. Would be cool to get permission to use more of their background images etc for it to really give a feel of it fitting the design of RQ:AiG

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9 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

i think its probably fairly unrealistic, although it would be cool.

 

Don’t be afraid to open doors and see the response. If there is a will and passion for something, most ideas has potential if there is meticulous commitment. This is something players want. Chaosium wants to work with talented individuals. Even people who have not officially created things before.

I am used to in a first stage think everything is possible.
Very happy you think this is cool, though. :)

I am more of a storyteller, than a stat creator, so would be wrong for this.

Edited by Fred

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21 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I'm quite new to the system so not confident making NPCs yet, but im pretty good with inDesign and could probably knock together a layout to roughly match the chaosium stuff. Would be cool to get permission to use more of their background images etc for it to really give a feel of it fitting the design of RQ:AiG

Don’t discard their ability to help things out with cool art, if they choose to. The deal might be slightly different. But the result in hardback might be fantastic. It would have to look exactly like in their books though. 
I still prefer 15-20 pages in the back of the GM Guide, though, ca  2 entries per page. And what others suggested, an added short manual for quickly making NPCs also. That would be perfectomento.

Edited by Fred

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18 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

a layout to roughly match the chaosium stuff

Chaosium has published free templates for the Jonstown Compendium. There's been a few improvements by writers (some added to the Facebook group). However, not all writers are comfortable using them, which has resulted in the current variety in visual presentation in the JC.

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I worked on UESRPG (one of the designers, google it if you're not aware of it), I can handle rules and things, just not had enough time to fully get to grips with RQ yet, so could probably write stuff but need to read up on more of the setting and rules before hand, seems there are lots of others here who could do it already though.

Honestly, it still seems like something likely to be simpler for it to be a JT project, but either way would be cool.

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3 minutes ago, Puckohue said:

Chaosium has published free templates for the Jonstown Compendium. There's been a few improvements by writers (some added to the Facebook group). However, not all writers are comfortable using them, which has resulted in the current variety in visual presentation in the JC.

didn't know this, just found them, might have to reinstall inDesign!

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4 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Honestly, it still seems like something likely to be simpler for it to be a JT project, but either way would be cool.

If it was just about simplicity there would probably be no discussion. If it reaches many many casual players more people play RQ.

The simplest solution is still stats in the GM Guide. ;)

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if enough people volunteered to make NPC stats, compiling them into a single document would be a fun side project. Could then be a free resource for people that way.

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Just posted this on facebook:

Quote

So, there's been some discussion about the idea of a book to provide generic NPC stats to help GMs quickly have things to hand.

I've done a fair bit of inDesign work in the past (one of the designers for UESRPG 3e and also for my own side edition of that, RRe), but i'm relatively new to Runequest (had the rules a couple of months, reading through them and the sourcebook and various online things as time goes by).

I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of collating NPCs into an inDesign document, using the official templates to match the structure provided by Chaosium. But would need people to do a lot of leg work on actually working out "balanced" and "logical" stats for various NPCs.

Something I had done for RRe UESRPG, was a system for quick NPC building too, which perhaps would be a nice touch for RQ:G as well?

General thoughts would be that this might be a fun little project, and as it would be community lead, perhaps it could then be a FREE resource for people to use? Sourcing art would be the hardest element of course, particularly for a free enterprise

My question is, if I were to renew my inDesign license (I let it slip when i stopped doing UESRPG content), and looked to coordinate such an undertaking, would people be interested in getting involved? I'd need a few people with:

a) strong knowledge of the setting

b) strong knowledge of the RQ:G rules.

 

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11 hours ago, Fred said:

That is incredibly impractical, to be honest. Keeping an extra 5-7 books or more to cover up most wide range options or so because you need to find that soldier.

"Incredibly impractical"? Dude, what I'm suggesting is "with absolutely no additional effort we'll still get a bunch of NPC stats", and in addition I have said it would be nice to have a simplified NPC option that (amongst other things) made it easier to create them ourselves. I see this as eminently practical, whereas you seem to be of the opinion that without a bunch of NPC stats in the main book GMs will have to buy an extra 5-7 books (which is clearly untrue - they will just make them up themselves, as they currently do).

And the fact you think it would take an additional hardback book is frankly not helping your case here. My main point is that I don't want something useful shoved out of the GM guide to make space for a few pages of such stats, and your response seems to suggest that you would regard a lot of such pages as extremely useful so it would, therefore, shove out many other things. I'm not opposed to a separate book that only contains stats - that's fine (I doubt I'll buy it, mind you, and historically such books haven't sold well, but that's a business decision, not a gaming one) - but I would hate to see the GM guide go from what I would regard as "very much needed to actually play the game right now" (the only reason I've been able to do so is because I'm relying on older material to fill in the gaps - I don't know how anyone is running a game with just the RQG at the moment, but kudos to those who are) to "an entirely optional book that I probably won't even bother buying" which it most certainly will be if, to coin an example, they decide to publish stats and push out the Hero Quest rules to "next year"...

Edited by GAZZA

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