Hero Questing within Time

[GAZZA]

Is it possible to Hero Quest and participate in events that took place after the God Age? For example, could you Hero Quest and join Paragua and the nomads in defending Robcradle from Pavis and his army in the Too Tall battle? Or fight alongside Arkat against Gbaji?

If you can, what important differences are there compared to the usual God Age Hero Questing? For example I presume you can't bring back Balastor's Axe, or a facsimile, even though you might be able to bring back a variation of Death if you quested on the God Plane and followed a Humakt myth. (I mean, I presume you can do that - I really don't know a lot about how Hero Questing is supposed to work, though I've run a few Internet published ones over the years, but of course everyone seemed to have their own ideas there).

Specifically how it can work in RQG, I presume (though I haven't played or really even read Hero Quest, though I do own not only Hero Quest but Hero Wars too) as a lot of the mechanics about what you can get out of it I suspect will be quite different.

[Akhôrahil]

On 5/13/2020 at 6:57 AM, GAZZA said:

Is it possible to Hero Quest and participate in events that took place after the God Age? For example, could you Hero Quest and join Paragua and the nomads in defending Robcradle from Pavis and his army in the Too Tall battle? Or fight alongside Arkat against Gbaji?

Yes, if it’s a sufficiently mythical event, ideally where the Compromise is a bit shaky already. Castle Blue, Battle of Night and Day, Orlanth vs. Zistor...

Edited May 14, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Is it possible to Hero Quest and participate in events that took place after the God Age?

Yes, as Akhôrahil says, if the event has become a myth then it can be HeroQuested to.

Mythical events create their own space within God Time and you can HeroQuest to the God Time event.

What you cannot do is to HeroQuest to the GodTime event and then jump off the HeroQuest to the actual event within Time. Unless, of course, that is a scenario the GM wants to run.

2 hours ago, GAZZA said:

For example, could you Hero Quest and join Paragua and the nomads in defending Robcradle from Pavis and his army in the Too Tall battle?

Yes, but you cannot change the actual event. You might make a mythical change that can then be referenced in your present. So, for example, you might bring Paragua a Dart to Kill Pavis, but he might be prevented from using it or might miss. You could then find a very obscure Hero cult to the Dart to Kill Pavis that gives a spell that harms Pavis or worshippers of Pavis.

2 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Or fight alongside Arkat against Gbaji?

Yes, Trolls do this all the time, in their fight against Gbbaji and the Curse of Kin.

 

2 hours ago, GAZZA said:

If you can, what important differences are there compared to the usual God Age Hero Questing?

The major difference is no dropping off at certain points.

In a normal GodTime HeroQuest, you could go to the Only Old One's hall beneath the Castle of Black Glass, using a Caladra & Aurelion Station, then exit into Hell, using part of the Lightbringer Quest. In a HeroQuest to a Mythical event within Time, you can only jump to similar Mythical Events, not go back in time.

Of course, one thing you could do is to HeroQuest to a God Time event that hasn't actually happened yet. When that event actually happens in normal time, it creates a God Time Mythic Event. Because God Time is beyond Time, once it is created it has always been there, so you could, in theory, travel there before it happens. This is very dangerous and rare, but is theoretically possible.

2 hours ago, GAZZA said:

For example I presume you can't bring back Balastor's Axe, or a facsimile, even though you might be able to bring back a variation of Death if you quested on the God Plane and followed a Humakt myth. (I mean, I presume you can do that - I really don't know a lot about how Hero Questing is supposed to work, though I've run a few Internet published ones over the years, but of course everyone seemed to have their own ideas there).

The myth is the important thing.

You can go on a HeroQuest and bring back things from the Myth. So, if the Myth involved Balastor making his Axe and you went on a HeroQuest you could bring back a copy of Balastor's Axe. It wouldn't be the original but it would work just as well. Two different people could do this and bring back different copies and could sort it out when they meet. Both would be Balastor's Axe and neither would be Balastor's Actual Axe.

2 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Specifically how it can work in RQG, I presume (though I haven't played or really even read Hero Quest, though I do own not only Hero Quest but Hero Wars too) as a lot of the mechanics about what you can get out of it I suspect will be quite different.

In RQG, a HeroQuest is just a scenario with an added layer of myth added on.

I like to think of it as playing a scenario which you have already read. You know roughly what should happen, but there might be differences between what yopu think should happen and what actually happens/

So, you could use the Sandals of Darkness HeroQuest to raid a house in Troll Town in the Big Rubble to steal a Darkness Artefact, it doesn't need to be a pair of Sandals. The Trolls might have a couple of Great trolls who would act as the Guards in the HeroQuest. If you did it against a trollkin band to take back something they have stolen, they wouldn;t have any Great trolls and the Guards might just be a couple of Trollkin. So, the HeroQuest is the same, the participants are different.

You end up with a Special Item, a Magical Item, a Spririt magic Spell, a Runespell, a Magical Ability or whatever, depending on the HeroQuest, who it is against and where it was done. so, a Sandals of Darkness HeroQuest might give you the Silence spell, the Dark Walk spell, a pair of sandals that allow you to move in Darkness or the ability to move in darkness as if affected by a Dark Walk spell.

 

[Austin]

31 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Of course, one thing you could do is to HeroQuest to a God Time event that hasn't actually happened yet. When that event actually happens in normal time, it creates a God Time Mythic Event. Because God Time is beyond Time, once it is created it has always been there, so you could, in theory, travel there before it happens. This is very dangerous and rare, but is theoretically possible.

Ooh, I like that...

[soltakss]

5 minutes ago, Crel said:

Ooh, I like that...

Kids, don't try this at home .

[Austin]

9 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Kids, don't try this at home .

Does that prohibition also apply to goading my players into trying it? They're already about to go on a cosmonautical quest anyway...

[Nick Brooke]

17 minutes ago, Crel said:

Does that prohibition also apply to goading my players into trying it? They're already about to go on a cosmonautical quest anyway...

You need to goad your players into trying impossible things?

Mind. Blown.

[Austin]

10 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

You need to goad your players into trying impossible things?

Oh, they try impossible things all the time. Currently, it's looking like one of them is going to try taking down King Argrath because he's getting his bad draconic juju all up in Orlanth's righteous blowing.

Goading's for getting them to attempt the impossible thing I want them to try.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Yes, but you cannot change the actual event. You might make a mythical change that can then be referenced in your present. So, for example, you might bring Paragua a Dart to Kill Pavis, but he might be prevented from using it or might miss. You could then find a very obscure Hero cult to the Dart to Kill Pavis that gives a spell that harms Pavis or worshippers of Pavis.

Although I could see a little bit of leeway here, if you "change" something that no-one knows anything about. Perhaps you could force Paragua to make a mistake and create a hidden weakness in one spot of the wall, and later you "find" this weakness in the real world? 

[Akhôrahil]

20 minutes ago, Crel said:

Oh, they try impossible things all the time. Currently, it's looking like one of them is going to try taking down King Argrath because he's getting his bad draconic juju all up in Orlanth's righteous blowing.

Tell him I approve and that I'm cheering for his success!

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Although I could see a little bit of leeway here, if you "change" something that no-one knows anything about. Perhaps you could force Paragua to make a mistake and create a hidden weakness in one spot of the wall, and later you "find" this weakness in the real world? 

That is fine.

What you cannot do, for example, is change that Pavis drove Paragua out of the giant settlement.

[soltakss]

8 hours ago, Crel said:

8 hours ago, soltakss said:

Kids, don't try this at home .

Does that prohibition also apply to goading my players into trying it? They're already about to go on a cosmonautical quest anyway...

If they are under your supervision, they should be OK.

I prefer using subtle tactics, so that I make things sound like the Players' ideas not mine, or they naturally come to a point where the impossible thing is better than the alternatives.

Of course, I am as subtle as a brick, so it's fine in theory, maybe not so much in practice.

[g33k]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

...

Of course, I am as subtle as a brick, so it's fine in theory, maybe not so much in practice.

I'm sure Derak could go into great detail about the subtleties of bricks, what kind of clay went into them, other materials, how they were fired, etc etc etc.  He strikes me as the sort of troll with a discerning palate...

[French Desperate WindChild]

23 hours ago, soltakss said:

Yes, but you cannot change the actual event. You might make a mythical change that can then be referenced in your present. So, for example, you might bring Paragua a Dart to Kill Pavis, but he might be prevented from using it or might miss. You could then find a very obscure Hero cult to the Dart to Kill Pavis that gives a spell that harms Pavis or worshippers of Pavis.

Why Paragua couldn't kill Pavis ?

 

After all, if you change the past, when you come back, nobody remember you changed it. your time may vary.

 

I don't say that I want to let players change  the past, but I don't see any reason, if we accept heroquest in past time, that could limit the action of the player.

Of course  if Pavis is killed, we could have Pavisson killing Paragua and do the stuff, taking after the name of his father, by some action-reaction of the web.

Thing that the heroquesters would discover only when they go back to the future (present ?),

Coming happy and proud but finally disapointed when their people say them "you do nothing ! " or maybe accusing them to bring more chaos to their community. But at least they killed their [previous past only one Pavis] and now have to live with their [new past second Pavis] legacy

 

[soltakss]

44 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Why Paragua couldn't kill Pavis ?

You might be able to change the mythic significance of the event, but perhaps not the event itself.

HeroQuesting traditionally works on a fix Forward basis. So, if you go on a HeroQuest in God Time and give your Deity an ability, then you can start a Sub Cult when you get back to grant that ability, but you donlt suddenly come back to find that every Temple to your Deity has always granted the spell. Similarly when HeroQuesting to events in Time, the benefits ir impact take effect from now on not from the original event.

In the case of the Curse of Kin, every change they made took effect after they returned. So, multiple births happened from that point onwards, Great Troll births happened after Cragspider brought back her secret and so on. 

48 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

After all, if you change the past, when you come back, nobody remember you changed it. your time may vary.

Sure, that could happen in a scenario, with historical events changing quite a lot. So, Paragua killing Pavis means that Pavis is not created and the HeroQuestors come back to a totally different landscape. That kind of thing is not really my cup of tea, but if it works in your campaign then great.

 

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Sure, that could happen in a scenario, with historical events changing quite a lot. So, Paragua killing Pavis means that Pavis is not created and the HeroQuestors come back to a totally different landscape. That kind of thing is not really my cup of tea, but if it works in your campaign then great.

And queue all the time travel paradoxes - what if you went back in myth and killed your ancestor?

[Austin]

50 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

And queue all the time travel paradoxes - what if you went back in myth and killed your ancestor?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Akhôrahil]

I'm sure counting as your own Ancestor opens up all kinds of shenanigans with Daka Fal rune magic!

[GAZZA]

Anyone ever play the game Continuum? I love me a good time travel story, but that was about the only game I ever thought captured something properly playable (as opposed to just treating time travel the same way as space travel - exotic settings, but no causality issues).

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Why Paragua couldn't kill Pavis ?

After all, if you change the past, when you come back, nobody remember you changed it. your time may vary.

This is why I'd argue that you cannot heroquest into prior points within Time.  You weren't there, and can't be there.

But if the battle between Pavis and Paragua was effectively a heroquest outside of Time, then you could join in that battle. If you do, when you come back to the mundane world, what you've gained is some power over Pavis.  Perhaps you can shatter or break the walls, or dispel Pavis' city harmony, or some other effect that erodes or destroys the city of Pavis. 

[Dissolv]

Man.  If I had been charge of that one, I would have said no way.  You can heroquest to the mythic realms/plane/godtime whatever, but once Time is established, the rules of the Compromise apply.

But the example of trolls going back to try to refight Gbaji are canon, so I have a hard time sticking to that -- UNLESS -- it was allowed precisely because the Great Compromise had been violated in the first place.  Still, in general the "time travel" criticism of Glorantha hero-questing I think is a very valid one.  Experiencing a mythic, timeless, universal event like the Hero's Journey, okay sure, I get that. 

Specifically traveling back in time to the year 379 ST to muck about with historical events seems a mistake.  A bit too sci-fi "timey-wimey" for the mythic genre.

[jajagappa]

24 minutes ago, Dissolv said:

But the example of trolls going back to try to refight Gbaji are canon, so I have a hard time sticking to that -- UNLESS -- it was allowed precisely because the Great Compromise had been violated in the first place.

I think the refight with Gbaji can occur because that event did step into the Godtime - likely into the Invasion of Wonderhome (by Yelm). So the heroquests don't go back in Time, but go into the Godtime myth.  And if they do succeed, the trollkin aren't going to magically become dark trolls.  It's a success that allows normal dark trolls to be born again from that point forward.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

This is why I'd argue that you cannot heroquest into prior points within Time.  You weren't there, and can't be there.

I aggree

there are only 2 options : it is possible and all is possible (but winds can always let time lands on its feets) / or it is not possible and nothing is possible in time.

 

I would prefer the option not possible (although impossible n'est pas français)

 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I think the refight with Gbaji can occur because that event did step into the Godtime - likely into the Invasion of Wonderhome (by Yelm). So the heroquests don't go back in Time, but go into the Godtime myth.  And if they do succeed, the trollkin aren't going to magically become dark trolls.  It's a success that allows normal dark trolls to be born again from that point forward.

But then, don't most major magical battles of Gloranthan History step over into Godtime, or at least slightly out of Time? 

[Bill the barbarian]

On 5/13/2020 at 2:47 AM, Crel said:

Oh, they try impossible things all the time. 

And should they attempt six impossible things in the morning, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliaways, the Restaurant at the end of the Universe? Why not, indeed?