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Cults that can be merged to one adventurer


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Is there , will there be in upcoming Cults Book, some sort of list of cults that can be merged to one adventurer? I don´t mean on illiminated person... For example... Can Eurmal, Humakt, Bageester Gor merge with any other cult? Can there be an adventurer who is initiate of both Maran Gor and Babeester Gor? Can there be Humakt/Orlanth? Eurmal/Orlanth? Maran Gor/Ernalda? Yelmalio/Ernalda?

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There's a chart on page 311 of the core rulebook which can help you adjudicate this:

image.png.27277405723a47f8d9af2704020f8791.png

Note that some cults don't look at one another the same way. For example, Orlanth is Neutral towards Daka Fal, but Daka Fal is Hostile toward Orlanth.

My rule of thumb tends to be that any cult listed as an Associated cult which provides Rune spells is a cult it's valid for an adventurer to multi-initiate with. Those cults don't necessarily align well though, so it's not an absolute measure. For example, Chalana Arroy and Orlanth are associated, but I doubt Orlanth's cult will let you initiate into Chalana Arroy considering its pacifist rules. However, I'd allow one of my players to freely leave Orlanth and join CA if something appropriate occurred during the story.

In my own campaign, one of the adventurers originally initiated in Issaries has initiated into Orlanth as well, because he's moving more and more toward a leadership role. My, and his, subjective sense of the cults don't feel conflict, and they're associated in the world besides, so I figured it makes sense enough to allow.

I suspect that a lot of "high level" play will revolve around adventurers initiated into two cults, and maybe with a spirit cult or two besides, once they've maxed out their CHA worth of Rune points in a given cult. Personally, I'd avoid letting an adventurer initiate into three or more full cults because I feel in-world like their attention and devotion would be being split too widely. A possible exception would be situations like where a non-Orlanth initiate becomes a king or chief, and initiates into Orlanth Rex as part of their King Test.

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Can there be an adventurer who is initiate of both Maran Gor and Babeester Gor? Can there be Humakt/Orlanth? Eurmal/Orlanth? Maran Gor/Ernalda? Yelmalio/Ernalda? These are the cults I would most like to know. I am aware of possibility of Orlanth and Issaries for example.  But what about cults that are named as severed in HQG rules? Humakt, Storm Bull, Eurmal and Babeester Gor?

 

 

Edited by Caras
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2 hours ago, Caras said:

will there be in upcoming Cults Book, some sort of list of cults that can be merged to one adventurer?

You mean whether they are Associated Cults or not, I believe, which are generally noted in the Rune Cults chapter.

37 minutes ago, Caras said:

Can there be an adventurer who is initiate of both Maran Gor and Babeester Gor? … Maran Gor/Ernalda?

Yes. and yes.  In both cases, those are associated.

45 minutes ago, Caras said:

Can there be Humakt/Orlanth?

Orlanthi can be Lay Members of Humakt.  Humakt generally requires his initiates to sever their prior relationships.

46 minutes ago, Caras said:

Eurmal

No cult is going to initiate a known trickster into their ranks.  Orlanth will provide protection (and it's feasible that an Orlanthi might become a Eurmali, but that will likely become noticeable at some point).

48 minutes ago, Caras said:

Yelmalio/Ernalda?

Yelmalio is one of Ernalda's husband-protectors.  Yelmalions might be lay members of Ernalda, but their role as husband pretty much precludes them from initiating into Ernalda.

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6 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

 

56 minutes ago, Caras said:

Can there be Humakt/Orlanth?

Orlanthi can be Lay Members of Humakt.  Humakt generally requires his initiates to sever their prior relationships.

At least Londra of Londros manages to be both a Sword of Humakt and an associate priest of Orlanth. RQ2 version in Wyrm's Footnotes 11, p.15, HQ version in Sartar Companion. No official stats for RQG, yet.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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21 minutes ago, Joerg said:

At least Londra of Londros manages to be both a Sword of Humakt and an associate priest of Orlanth.

It may be that Humakti only need to ritually "sever" their former ties.  Or once they've done so, they can initiate again.

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53 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It may be that Humakti only need to ritually "sever" their former ties.  Or once they've done so, they can initiate again.

Or just initiate into Humakt first, I presume. He's the god of severing, not the god of never making any new connections.

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3 hours ago, Caras said:

Is there , will there be in upcoming Cults Book, some sort of list of cults that can be merged to one adventurer?

As Crel says, the Cult compatibility Matrix is a useful tool.

Generally Associated Cults have no problems with Adventurers belonging to both cults and Friendly Cults are generally the same.

Neutral cults might be OK.

Hostile and Enemy Cults generally do not allow membership of both cults.

However, some illuminates hide membership of one cult so they can join another cult,. so someone could belong to Orlanth but be a secret worshipper of Cacodemon or Krarsht, for example.

 

3 hours ago, Caras said:

I don´t mean on illiminated person...

Ah, OK ignore the last bit, then.

3 hours ago, Caras said:

For example... Can Eurmal, Humakt, Bageester Gor merge with any other cult?

An Adventurer could be in multiple cults, including those cults.

Eurmal could join another trickster cult, for example Raven in Prax.

I can see a Humakti joining Arkat Humaktsson, for example, so that is fine.

Similarly, Babeester Gor could join other Gor cults without it being an issue.

People who are Citizens of a city or national Cult could join other cults, so I can see an Adventurer being an Initiate of both Humakt and Pavis, for example.

Similarly, some Sazdorf Trolls were initiates of both Kyger Litor and Humakt.

3 hours ago, Caras said:

Can there be Humakt/Orlanth?

We had that combination in our RQ2 campaign. Of course, now with the emphasis on Severing the link between Orlanth and Humakt, this might be trickier, but I can still see an Orlanth/Humakt combination being good.

 

4 hours ago, Caras said:

Maran Gor/Ernalda?

That is more problematic, as Babeester Gor is more of a Dust/Dry Earth cult and Ernalda is more of a Fertile Earth cult.

4 hours ago, Caras said:

Yelmalio/Ernalda?

Women in Sun County normally are either Ernaldans or Yelmalians, but not usually both, so I would say this was not a good combination.

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3 hours ago, Caras said:

Can there be an adventurer who is initiate of both Maran Gor and Babeester Gor?

Absolutely, why not?

I think it's more of a case of "Can we justify this combination?" or "Has this combination come about naturally in play?" rather than a blanket "Is this allowed?"

A blanket "Is this allowed?" means an answer of "Yes" for Friendly/Associated cults, maybe for Neutral Cults and "No" for Hostile/Enemy Cults.

There are always exceptions though. Humakt and Kyger Litor are Hostile, I think, but the Sazdorf Trolls belonged to both without a problem, well with lost of problems really.

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Are there any examples of a character worshiping both Orlanth and Ernalda as an initiate or rune level?

Other than Vinga the Avenger, that is.

Edited by Joerg

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Are there any examples of a character worshiping both Orlanth and Ernalda as an initiate or rune level?

Other than Vinga the Avenger, that is.

I think that being a full initiate of both would be somewhat unusual. Orlanth is the father, the warrior, the adventurer. Ernalda is the mother, the conciliator, the hearthkeeper. Why would one person feel that they fit both of those archetypes? If you identify with Ernalda the Mother and Orlanth the Adventurer, then Vinga would be for you.I suppose you might lean towards Orlanth the Father, and Ernalda the Conciliator or Hearthkeeper.

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1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Are there any examples of a character worshiping both Orlanth and Ernalda as an initiate or rune level?

Other than Vinga the Avenger, that is.

Why not?

They're associated. Barntar is supposed to be an aspect of Orlanth. And then there's Thunderous which sort of goes nicely with some aspects of Ernalda...

Rune levels are (going to be) gender-restricted for Ernalda though, which will be problematic for many in Orlanth.

Oh, and they'd both be Lay Members to each other, so taking the next step shouldn't really be that surprising... 

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I've just got to point out that -- if they can figure out how to pull off the con-job -- I think a lot of Eurmali would be VERY happy to initiate into another Cult... or two...

The potential for disruption is huge!

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58 minutes ago, g33k said:

I think a lot of Eurmali would be VERY happy to initiate into another Cult... or two...

The potential for disruption is huge!

Eh, only 1D3 to a random location. Plus, I don't think it's Eurmal who has the complaints, here... more like everybody else.

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9 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yeah, try to ensure the game isn't fun.

MGF is cool but 3 seems a lot. 2 fine. Mind you Shaman Rune Priest is a thing so hey 3 initiates maybe not so bad

 

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7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Yeah, try to ensure the game isn't fun.

I think what Phil means is that if a player "volunteers" to take on twice as many religious obligations, inconvenient calls on their time, temple hierarchies to placate, internal rivalries within their cult(s), etc. as any of the other players, that shouldn't mean they get twice as much of your devoted 1:1 game-mastering attention: they will just regularly get given the shitty end of the stick. It's what they volunteered for, after all.

Make sure they know that before they sign their character up for twice as many late-night vigils, mandatory spud-peeling sessions, Rune Lord crash-test training dummy duties, "deliver-the-acolyte's-ransom-to-the-troll-bandits-what-could-possibly-go-wrong?" missions as anybody else. Once they've done that, your life becomes much simpler. You don't need to think up "one duty per cult" for them every session - just hit them with the worst thing you can think of*, then say that clashes with what their other Priest wants them to do, and how are they going to sort that?

(Yes, I have a general dislike of special snowflake "me-me-me "players who want everything to be about their wonderful character, all the time, and sod anyone else at the table: does it show? That said, I don't like the idea of "ensuring the game isn't fun" -- the easiest way to do that is to sack your player. This is about showing them that being a mini-maxing power-gamer in a social setting has predictable consequences -- in-world consequences -- that they'd better be prepared for)

* why do adventurers who are visibly, ostentatiously splitting their time between two cults get the worst assignments? Because their Rune Priests know they lack dedication, and are testing them. That's also why they will deliberately ensure cult duties clash, or pull the cultist in different directions. They want you to make a choice: they want you to choose them! Conflict builds character.

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I mean, all this works from the assumption that the player in question took a second cult for power gaming or whatever, but that's not always the case.

Consider my own campaign, which recently had the Master Hunt. Of the four PCs, one was an Odayla initiate and the others were Humakt, Yelm, and Storm Bull. I had a mini hunting scenario prepared, and as written it would have sidelined 75% of my players. To keep them involved I created some NPCs, but I also offered the option for the other three, if they wanted to, to initiate to Foundchild (it was in Prax) and participate directly. The Humakt and Storm Bull players didn't want to do that (so they played a couple of the NPCs through the hunt), but the Yelm player did.

The point is, a lot of the times players join new cults isn't going to be because of the phat l00t. It's going to be situational, like joining a spirit cult, or joining the cult of Pavis or Flintnail, or I believe there's at least one published scenario where the players can find what is, essentially, the remnants of a forgotten goddess and revive her by saccing POW.

It's not as if "2 cults" is particularly rare in published scenarios; even going back to RQ2 most trolls had Kyger Litor even if they were also Zorak Zoran, Argan Argar, Gorakikki, or whatever. Most elves have Aldrya even if they are also some Solar or other cult. Plenty of published chaotic NPCs have Primal Chaos in addition to Malia, Thed, Thanatar, or whatever.

Basically I don't think a player that wants to join another cult is necessarily doing so for simple acquisition of m0ar stuff. Perhaps if it was easier to leave cults this wouldn't be as big an issue, but in many cases you get pretty severely punished if you chose Odayla on a whim as your first PC and then realised how much weaker it was than Orlanth Adventurous, or if you decide that the whole Humakti obsession with death doesn't fit your still-a-warrior-but-not-that-grim concept that has evolved and want to go with a kinder, gentler warrior cult like Zorak Zoran. :)

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Well, obviously, different cults have different standards, and there are cults that require much less time and attention from its initiates. If you want to initiate into 2 cults and dont suffer consequences, initiate into Mralota or something like that.

1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

The point is, a lot of the times players join new cults isn't going to be because of the phat l00t. It's going to be situational, like joining a spirit cult, or joining the cult of Pavis or Flintnail, or I believe there's at least one published scenario where the players can find what is, essentially, the remnants of a forgotten goddess and revive her by saccing POW.

It's not as if "2 cults" is particularly rare in published scenarios; even going back to RQ2 most trolls had Kyger Litor even if they were also Zorak Zoran, Argan Argar, Gorakikki, or whatever. Most elves have Aldrya even if they are also some Solar or other cult. Plenty of published chaotic NPCs have Primal Chaos in addition to Malia, Thed, Thanatar, or whatever.

City gods are like Wyters and you are worshipping them just by living in their city. Kyger Litor, Aldrya and Primal Chaos are kind of ancestral cult to their people, so it is like humans  and Daka Fel/grandfather mortal, everyone is initiated even if they dont know about it. So yeah these examples are really exceptions

And of the top of my head I remember there being only two gods that can be ressurected (well more like rescued) and that is Baroshi in Snakepipe Hollow and Firshala in Balazar

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So let me get this strait:

1) Humakt initiate can become also initiate of Orlanth, if an adventurer is humakti before initiation to the other cult. But not the other way around. (I don´t know what to think about this one.)

2) Maran Gor can be merged with Babeester Gor. (I agree, but Babeester Gor is not easy to fit to my campaigns adventures... So not in my campaign.)

3) Maran Gor can be merged with Ernalda also. Even thou they are somewhat opposites. (I don´t agree.)

4) Eurmal can not be merged with anyone. (I will change the one npc in my campaign that has Eurmal/Orlanth. I agree that this is better rule. So I agree.)

5) Ernalda initiate can not be merged normally with her own husband protector cult. (There may be some exeptions. I remember Jeff saying somewhere of a possibility of Ernalda/Orlanth.) (I agree.)

6) Storm Bull? Can you be Storm Bull/Waha? Storm Bull/Orlanth? (I don´t know what to think.)

Edited by Caras
I added my own thinkings of these
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26 minutes ago, Borygon said:

City gods are like Wyters and you are worshipping them just by living in their city. Kyger Litor, Aldrya and Primal Chaos are kind of ancestral cult to their people, so it is like humans  and Daka Fel/grandfather mortal, everyone is initiated even if they dont know about it. So yeah these examples are really exceptions

In Glorantha? Heck if I know. In RuneQuest? Well, we don't have proper write ups for RQG troll and elf gods yet, but certainly humans are not all Daka Fal initiates (thank goodness! Daka Fal hates everybody, and very few cults can be combined with it for that reason, including all the typical PC gods like Orlanth and Humakt). In previous editions a troll sacced POW to both Kyger Litor and Zorak Zoran (or whatever), these are not exceptions in any rules sense to having any two cults (they both require a point of POW, they both require tithing, they both require time ... functionally identical to a Foundchild/Yelm combination).

And if you want to join the cult of Pavis, well, in RQ3 that would be treated as a City God (I assume; I know of no complete Pavis cult writeup for RQ3, certainly not in River of Cradles) which still costs you a point of POW, 5% of your time, and 1% of your income (so certainly less than a "full" god, but not inconsequentially less), while in RQ2 (c.f. Pavis and Big Rubble) you have essentially the same initiation test as for any other cult, you aren't allowed to worship anyone other than Pavis and "friendly cults" (which if we are using Cults of Prax terminology is not a big list at all, though I would assume many GMs would interpret that as "not hostile" rather than "friendly"), and there is nothing suggesting your cult requirements are any different to any other cult (unlike the City Gods reference in RQ3).

Now, of course, you are free to say that this just means the rules are wrong/incomplete - which is fine, of course, but RAW say that two cult membership is very common amongst non-humans and, if there are very many Pavis citizens, not really uncommon amongst humans either in previous editions; given that it seems a little harsh to come down on players for wanting to do what NPCs clearly do as a matter of course.

You could quite reasonably argue in fact that a lot of current cults ought to just be subcults. I am not convinced that a "Lightbringers" cult akin to the Seven Mothers would be a terrible idea, given that Orlanth gives you most of the good stuff anyway via associated cults. Certain combinations of deities get you very little extra in the core rules, often because the various cults are not remotely balanced in terms of mechanical utility (nor are they supposed to be, I hasten to add, but that's still a bit of an unwelcome surprise for someone who picked Odayla instead of Orlanth and then realises just how many fewer Rune spells that opens up).

The subject of multiple cult membership is one that I don't think is really dealt with well in RQG (or in previous editions of RQ); you don't really get double the power for joining two cults that you get for joining one, but you do have double the responsibilities. Yes, I suppose technically you can get an extra CHA worth of rune points, but by the time most PCs have "filled up" their first lot there I suspect some sort of Hero Quest extension to that limit is going to be more common than joining another cult just to get a few more points of Heal Wound or whatever, especially since it's a lot easier to refresh Rune magic that it ever was before and I would argue that 10 Rune Points is possibly equivalent to 30 points of RQ3 Divine magic just out of flexibility.

Edited by GAZZA
Spelling correction.
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It's unusual to be an active initiate in more than one cult.
It is possible to be an active initiate in more than one cult.
It is challenging to be an active initiate in more than one cult.
(NB: spirit cults, hero cults and communal worship don't count).
Player characters are special snowflakes compared to average Joes. 
YGWV.

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Being a joint initiate of paired opposites like Ernalda and Orlanth, or Ernalda and Maran Gor, seems unlikely to work (to me).

"Bride's side or Groom's side?"

If you stand in the middle of the road, you'll get run over by both sides.

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