Knockback get up

[Barak Shathur]

I am running RQ3 for the first time and I can't find anywhere in the rules that specifies exactly how long it takes to stand up if you've been knocked down. The closest thing is under "Melee activities" where it says you can't attack, parry, dodge or cast spells during the strike ranks needed to perform a major non-fighting action (standing up in this case). But how many strike ranks does it take to stand up? My instinct would be to say that it takes one entire round to stand up, but I can't find anything in the rules that says this is so. Am I missing something here?

[Pentallion]

My house rule is if your attackers first swing of the next round misses or the parry completely blocks it with none to armor or if you dodge (roll away) you can get up on a dex x 5.

This happens either your dex sr after the last attack or SR10.

Exception:  if a player gets munchkin and waits till sr 10 to swing you get up on your dex sr.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Pentallion

[Runeblogger]

I would say DEX-SR + 3 SR   🤔

Perhaps you could add +1SR for every 5 CAR you are wearing.

[g33k]

My gut reaction -- as a GM -- is "it depends."

"On what??!?"  cries my Inner Munchkin, who wants to get up and get fighting... instanter!

"On... well, lots of things.  How hard was the hit that downed you?  What's the terrain you're rising from?  Do you have a disabled limb (0HP)?"

 

I don't have the rulebook on-hand ... what's the rule for changing Statement of Intent, +3 SR's?  Whatever... "I stand up from being knocked on my ass" is clearly a new SoI !

"Standing up" uses a bit of "movement."  +1 SR as per "moving" -- it just takes TIME to scramble to your feet, much moreso than swinging a readied weapon takes.
Plus... let's say +1 SR per 1HP of damage taken, going down (including no SR's for taking damage if you DIDN'T take any damage).

+1 SR for every meter knocked-back -- tumbling further just takes longer to reorient yourself.

If all the SR's add up to "cannot rise this round" I'm OK with that, as a GM.  My inner munchkin is screaming in outrage, but I'm used to ignoring him.

If you have a disabled arm, make a DEX x 3 roll to stand up, and take +3 SR's (or a skill-roll for athletics or acrobatics or what-have-you).  If you have a disabled leg,  make it a DEX% roll, or you need a Special/Critical Success on your Skill check.

[Barak Shathur]

Ok, let's say a character is knocked down at SR 7 or 8. With the 3 SR penalty for changing intent, it's too late to get up this round. End of round. Next round he/she has the option to get  up or keep fighting from the ground. Say getting up takes 3 SR + DEX SRM, so that would be SR 4-6. Most normal opponents won't get a swing in until SR 7 or 8, so the character gets up before being attacked as a prone target. It's too late for that character to attack this round, so the only impact of the knockdown was thus that the victim missed out on attacking one round. A disadvantage, sure, but hardly game changing. Now in RQ3, knockdown is the only effect of a special success for slashing and smashing weapons, so if it is largely ineffectual it makes those weapons very weak compared to thrusting weapons with their deadly impale special success. It seems to me that for knockback to be more than a minor irritant, the victim should have to remain fighting from the ground (at the -20 to hit and +20 to being hit for being prone), or risk an attack without being able to defend him/herself while trying to get up. Now that's a serious game changer and it makes weapons other than spears at least worth considering. 

[Lordabdul]

I can't find information either on how long it takes to get back up in RQ3 so I assume it's a mistake/missing thing. The Melee/Parry Fumble table says that if you fall down, it takes 1D3 melee rounds, so I would probably rule that it takes 1 round to get back up under normal circumstances. I might allow a character to get back up after DEX SR+3, if the player succeeds a.... errr, wow there's no Acrobatics skill in RQ3, or anything similar? I guess a DEX*3 roll then maybe? Critical/special success gets you back up in DEX SR (no +3), failure gets you back up in 2 rounds, and fumble gets you back up in 3 rounds, or maybe 2 rounds but you hurt yourself for a few damage points.

[g33k]

18 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I can't find information either on how long it takes to get back up in RQ3 so I assume it's a mistake/missing thing. The Melee/Parry Fumble table says that if you fall down, it takes 1D3 melee rounds, so I would probably rule that it takes 1 round to get back up under normal circumstances ...

Whups!  Didn't realize this.  NIce spotting, lordabdul !

I would consider it a "canonical" answer -- 1d3 MR's.

1d3MR seems excessive, to me... but it's clearly the RAW.

[Lordabdul]

17 minutes ago, g33k said:

1d3MR seems excessive, to me... but it's clearly the RAW.

It's when you fumble, though. If you get knocked down for other reasons, I would use the house-rules that I wrote above.

[g33k]

53 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

It's when you fumble, though. If you get knocked down for other reasons, I would use the house-rules that I wrote above.

A "fumble" is a combat-disaster that you inflict upon yourself; specials and criticals are disasters the foe inflicts upon you.

I still go with this as the RAW... or at least the closest thing to a RAW that there is.

 

I admit that I see the argument that Criticals/Fumbles are largely at parity, and Specials are less-intense result, so inflicting a "Special" of Knockback shouldn't be as severe as a Fumble result... so I can see "softening" this result ...  but then we're back into HR / Spot Rule territory.

[GAZZA]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I admit that I see the argument that Criticals/Fumbles are largely at parity, and Specials are less-intense result, so inflicting a "Special" of Knockback shouldn't be as severe as a Fumble result... so I can see "softening" this result ...  but then we're back into HR / Spot Rule territory.

That ship has already sailed, cast Open Seas, and circumnavigated the coast though.  Extrapolating a fumble to a core rule for a non fumble is itself a house rule.

Personally I'd say +5 SR is fine, as that seems to be the default in RQG for "extra stuff" (changing intent, firing multiple arrows, or whatever).

[Bill the barbarian]

On 5/16/2020 at 2:32 PM, Barak Shathur said:

But how many strike ranks does it take to stand up? My instinct would be to say that it takes one entire round to stand up, but I can't find anything in the rules that says this is so. Am I missing something here?

Back in the day the consensus was 3 SR for most actions. surprise, changing weapons, drawing weapons, and getting to ones feet. There are rules for the first three items and within reason, most normal actions could be assumed to require a 3 SR penalty. I am sure I saw this somewhere as being nearly official. Hero Magazine. or the errata. Damn I hate not being able to recall but that was a lot of years ago. 

Cheers

Edited May 18, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

... +5 SR is fine, as that seems to be the default in RQG for "extra stuff" ...

But this is explicitly RQ3, and AIUI the default is +3 SR's.

[GAZZA]

2 minutes ago, g33k said:

But this is explicitly RQ3, and AIUI the default is +3 SR's.

Indeed, my bad.

[Barak Shathur]

4 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Back in the day the consensus was 3 SR for most actions. surprise, changing weapons, drawing weapons, and getting to ones feet. There are rules for the first three items and within reason, most normal actions could be assumed to require a 3 SR penalty. I am sure I saw this somewhere as being nearly official. Hero Magazine. or the errata. Damn I hate not being able to recall but that was a lot of years ago. 

Cheers

What gives me pause is the wording on p. 47 in the Player's Book under Melee Activities: "If, while in hand-to-hand combat, an adventurer attempts to perform some major non-fighting action (stand up, climb a nearby wall, jump down a slope,  mount a horse, etc.) then he cannot attack, parry, dodge, or cast a spell during the strike ranks needed to perform  the action." This comes after the paragraph stating the 3 SR rule for changing intent. So standing up is grouped with non-fighting actions such as getting on a horse or climbing a wall, and contrasted with  the 3 SR rule. Why would they need to specify not being able to attack or parry while standing up, if you can get up before anything like that would likely occur? It becomes a meaningless statement. Sorry, I just can't let this go. Can someone ask Steve Perrin?

[Stephen L]

On 5/16/2020 at 9:32 PM, Barak Shathur said:

Am I missing something here?

I'm pretty sure you are missing something.

I’m afraid my RQiii is up in the loft, and my planned weekend trip didn’t materialise.  I haven’t played RQiii for ages (a solid system, but lacked the *inspiration* of RQinG.  Really buy it, play it, tell everyone one you meet about it, and that's from an RQiii fan), but my recollection was that the knock back rules were quite clearly stated…  And one of the strengths of RQiii.

I remember it was a real killer, because of all the penalties (in addition to no damage bonus), and bonuses for your opponents.  Getting up was one of your possible actions (so you could only parry, otherwise you’d be mad, your attack's worthless).  Needed some sort of Dex roll in a combat situation?  Also, given you’re not much a threat on the ground, your opponents are probably all out attack, so I remember once you’re down repeatedly getting knocked down round after round.  I definitely remember just going all out defence and calling for help!

Whilst we’re on nostalgia for RQiii, in general the Fatigue rules were a faff, and not worth the effort (in the end, as the GM, I’d just count the number of combat rounds and only refer if rolls were close) But once I ran an adventure where the players were perused by Broo across the Plains of Prax.  The broo were no match for the players, but had numbers, and continually skirmished.  The players couldn’t rest, so weren’t recuperating fatigue, and the numbers got ridiculous, I can’t remember, but something like 75% penalties.  It was amazing how resourceful the players were, functioning when you’d think it was all over.  But the feeling of tiredness as we played was visceral…

[Barak Shathur]

53 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

I'm pretty sure you are missing something.

I’m afraid my RQiii is up in the loft, and my planned weekend trip didn’t materialise.  I haven’t played RQiii for ages (a solid system, but lacked the *inspiration* of RQinG.  Really buy it, play it, tell everyone one you meet about it, and that's from an RQiii fan), but my recollection was that the knock back rules were quite clearly stated…  And one of the strengths of RQiii.

I remember it was a real killer, because of all the penalties (in addition to no damage bonus), and bonuses for your opponents.  Getting up was one of your possible actions (so you could only parry, otherwise you’d be mad, your attack's worthless).  Needed some sort of Dex roll in a combat situation?  Also, given you’re not much a threat on the ground, your opponents are probably all out attack, so I remember once you’re down repeatedly getting knocked down round after round.  I definitely remember just going all out defence and calling for help!

Whilst we’re on nostalgia for RQiii, in general the Fatigue rules were a faff, and not worth the effort (in the end, as the GM, I’d just count the number of combat rounds and only refer if rolls were close) But once I ran an adventure where the players were perused by Broo across the Plains of Prax.  The broo were no match for the players, but had numbers, and continually skirmished.  The players couldn’t rest, so weren’t recuperating fatigue, and the numbers got ridiculous, I can’t remember, but something like 75% penalties.  It was amazing how resourceful the players were, functioning when you’d think it was all over.  But the feeling of tiredness as we played was visceral…

Well you had better go on that trip, dig the books out and find the exact text you're referring to, because it sounds like a different game to the one I'm reading. Neither I nor anyone else in this thread have been able to identify anything close to the clarity of RQ3 regarding knockback (or really, knockdown) you describe.  In fact, "all out" attack and defence are concepts that I've come across in RQ: Adventures in Glorantha, not in RQ3. Maybe that's the game you're remembering?

I'm currently playing in a RQ:G campaign, and I agree it's great. I do have some quibbles with the way Passions are used though, and it's a shame they didn't fix the out of whack levels of weapon damage visavi body part HP. But on the whole it's been one of the best RP experiences I've had. 

I am going to GM a campaign using RQ3 on Roll20, and the character sheet has a function for fatigue which makes it a cinch. 

[GAZZA]

Yeah I never got the hate for RQ3 fatigue myself, especially in this Brave New World where we're told that Sword Trance isn't a problem because of "reasons". My game is currently RQG (with significant house rules for experience checks but otherwise more or less RAW), but I've had to dip into RQ3 a few times for elder race stuff and more spirit variety.

[Al.]

Not quite RAW but from a semi-official source and very old.

There was a WD article for Martial Arts in RQ3 which allowed a Martial Arts roll to 'get up quickly' (in DEX SR) and statement along the lines of 'otherwise we assume it takes a whole round'. And that seems to tally nicely with Lord Abdul's find. On a fumble I can see the character floundering, flailing and tangling up their legs, other limbs and gear which will take some time to sort out; whilst if they are just knocked back off their feet and clamber back up (the best case which matches mechanically the best result for the fumble).

[Akhôrahil]

I would probably say that you can get up if you use an entire round for nothing but defensive actions (like when you make a Disengage). If you’re both Prone and Grappled, it will be worse.

[Agentorange]

There should be a spirit/battle magic spell that you cast: passive until activated that allows you to regain your footing literally on the next SR or the first SR of the next round.

Obviously you would cast it by intoning the mystic chant:

"I get knocked down, but I get up again
You are never gonna keep me down"

With apologies to Chumbawumba........😄    

Joking aside there probably is a spell in there. I might write it up.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Agentorange
extra thought

[Cassius]

Is there any rule for the same situation in RQG ? How long does it take to get up after you were knocked down ?

[Kloster]

Globally, the RQ3 +3SR became a +5SR in RQG

[DreadDomain]

My take on this is you choose between:

You can take 3 SR but you are subject to attacks of opportunity and cannot defend 

Or

You take the full round and get defensive actions as per disengaging (except that you just get back up, you don't disengage)

However, I think the intent of the rule (RAW) is it takes 3 SR (standard rule) but you cannot defend while doing so.

 

Edited November 18 by DreadDomain

[Jens]

On 5/18/2020 at 12:41 AM, Barak Shathur said:

Why would they need to specify not being able to attack or parry while standing up, if you can get up before anything like that would likely occur?

I don’t see a conflict- if someone can strike you during the 3 SR it takes you to stand up, you can’t parry or dodge. If it takes them longer, you can (see also that exact example in the Cormac saga excerpt).

Looking through the RQ 1,2,3 and G rules, that paragraph in RQ3 page 47 on performing a non combat action was the only one I could find that explicitly referenced standing up. There’s also an example on page 47 of Cormac standing up and drawing his hatchet which only takes 3 SR for both actions. 

Overall, I like @DreadDomain’s suggestion- it takes 3 SR (5 in RQ 2/G) to stand up if you do it quickly but can’t defend, or a full round to do cautiously while being able to dodge or parry. 

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Jens said:

I don’t see a conflict- if someone can strike you during the 3 SR it takes you to stand up, you can’t parry or dodge. If it takes them longer, you can (see also that exact example in the Cormac saga excerpt).

In my games, you can parry or dodge lying down, at a disadvantage. If you choose to use defensive actions, standing up will be delayed.

 

9 hours ago, Jens said:

Overall, I like @DreadDomain’s suggestion- it takes 3 SR (5 in RQ 2/G) to stand up if you do it quickly but can’t defend, or a full round to do cautiously while being able to dodge or parry. 

Close to my ruling.

My problem with RQG combat is the static nature of it. A combatant knocked down onto the ground will rarely remain in the original position. It would seem reasonable to regard a character suffering a knockback of more than a meter to start the next melee round as disengaged from the cause of the knockback unless said cause explicitely maintains contact.

In a perfect world, there would be a combat maneuver producing an intentional knockback of an opponent to disengage. RQG simplifies this disregarding the finicky bits about the knockback and just going through the procedures of disengaging, but from a player perspective, doing so by shoving the opponent back is narratively more satisfying.

Dodging and evading on the ground, rolling with the blows and kicks is a trope of cinematic combat and operatic martial arts. Part of the job of a GM is to frame a combat in such terms without re-inventing the rules, but possibly tweaking them for a better shared experience of the combat.