Why don't Hunters get the Devise skill?

[Brootse]

Hunters get snares, but not the skill to make traps. It's also Foundchild's cult skill, though not their starting cult skill. And even Healers get Devise, so why not Hunters?

[Akhôrahil]

This is bad, but the true craziness is that they don't get Peaceful Cut.

[Brootse]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

This is bad, but the true craziness is that they don't get Peaceful Cut.

Haha, I hadn't noticed that.

[Sid Vicarious]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is bad, but the true craziness is that they don't get Peaceful Cut.

Or Survival.

[Brootse]

17 minutes ago, Sid Vicarious said:

Or Survival.

I have some vague recollection that I asked about that somewhere, and got an official answer why it is so, but unfortunately I can't find the post.

[Lordabdul]

Yeah there have been threads in the past about Hunter occupations and Odayla/Yinkin cults, and the only conclusion we could come up with was that, probably, the authors really don't like hunter characters? (maybe some obscure story about them having to go hiking and hunting as kids instead of staying home and reading books? ).

Occupations mostly give out between 150 and 185 points in occupational skills. The Scribe is an outlier, at 210 points. The Warrior and Healer are in the low bracket, with 140 points. The Hunter is the lowest, at 130 points -- lower than the Fisher (150). It would personally house-rule 10 or 20 points of extra skills to the Hunter, and it wouldn't feel out of place.

 

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah there have been threads in the past about Hunter occupations and Odayla/Yinkin cults, and the only conclusion we could come up with was that, probably, the authors really don't like hunter characters? (maybe some obscure story about them having to go hiking and hunting as kids instead of staying home and reading books? ).

Herders make much better Hunters than Hunters do.

[Brootse]

11 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah there have been threads in the past about Hunter occupations and Odayla/Yinkin cults, and the only conclusion we could come up with was that, probably, the authors really don't like hunter characters? (maybe some obscure story about them having to go hiking and hunting as kids instead of staying home and reading books? ).

Occupations mostly give out between 150 and 185 points in occupational skills. The Scribe is an outlier, at 210 points. The Warrior and Healer are in the low bracket, with 140 points. The Hunter is the lowest, at 130 points -- lower than the Fisher (150). It would personally house-rule 10 or 20 points of extra skills to the Hunter, and it wouldn't feel out of place.

 

Yeah, I just calculated the same. I was finally taking the plunge, and put my FrankenQuest campaign on hold, and start running RAW RQG published scenarios. But perhaps I'll give the Hunter character +10% Devise, and +10% Peaceful Cut.

e: and +10 Survival.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Brootse

[Lordabdul]

20 minutes ago, Brootse said:

I have some vague recollection that I asked about that somewhere, and got an official answer why it is so, but unfortunately I can't find the post.

Maybe this?

FWIW, I don't agree with Scotty's answer here. Sure anybody has a reasonable chance of succeeding at any task given enough time and such -- that's why operating under no pressure gives you either sizeable bonuses (+40% was recommended by Jason IIRC), or lets you skip the roll and succeed directly. But having points in a skill also means that the character is doing this enough to be better than the average shmuck... it represents something. Some of us sometimes skip the rolls, but narrate things based on the score written on the sheet -- so the narration would be different between someone with the skill at default, and somebody with +20% in it. It matters IMHO.

I would expect a hunter to be better at moving quietly and setting traps than a scribe or a chariot driver. The fact that, under most circumstances, they don't need to roll for this is irrelevant in my opinion: at some point, sooner or later, some situation is going to call for a roll, and at that moment, the player with the hunter character will be happy to step up... instead of everybody saying "I just have it at default", and everybody turning to the player who owns the lucky d10 dice.

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

FWIW, I don't agree with Scotty's answer here. Sure anybody has a reasonable chance of succeeding at any task given enough time and such -- that's why operating under no pressure gives you either sizeable bonuses (+40% was recommended by Jason IIRC), or lets you skip the roll and succeed directly. But having points in a skill also means that the character is doing this enough to be better than the average shmuck... it represents something. Some of us sometimes skip the rolls, but narrate things based on the score written on the sheet -- so the narration would be different between someone with the skill at default, and somebody with +20% in it. It matters IMHO.

Also, you can pretty much expect every Hunter heroquest to have a Peaceful Cut check at some point, and that's not going to be automatic.

I agree with what you're saying - if you always succeed, it doesn't matter. If you don't always succeed, then some characters should be better at some things than others. And I really wish the Rules Questions thread was handled better than it is - it tends be defensive, not acknowledging actual issues but coming up with some handwave instead, and not always even care too much about how the rules are actually written and just make up rules as they go along (like how Jason is trying to tell us that you can't cast multiple Spirit Magic spells in a round, even though the rules clearly support this).

Edited May 17, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Tindalos]

39 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Herders make much better Hunters than Hunters do.

A starting hunter who worships Lhankor Mhy will likely be better than one who worships Foundchild.

[GAZZA]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

If you don't always succeed, then some characters should be better at some things than others. And I really wish the Rules Questions thread was handled better than it is - it tends be defensive, not acknowledging actual issues but coming up with some handwave instead, and not always even care too much about how the rules are actually written and just make up rules as they go along (like how Jason is trying to tell us that you can't cast multiple Spirit Magic spells in a round, even though the rules clearly support this).

Or giving multiple options for house ruling.

Honestly I consider the "Core Rules thread" to be essentially the equivalent of WotC's Sage Advice: basically just one person's house rules that I need not pay any particular attention to and has no particular authority. If it makes it into a Rune Fixes I'll pay attention, otherwise if it's just talking to fellow GMs and players about how they would handle stuff, then that thread contains far inferior opinions to people such as @Akhôrahil, @soltakss, and others.

[Tindalos]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Maybe this?

FWIW, I don't agree with Scotty's answer here. Sure anybody has a reasonable chance of succeeding at any task given enough time and such -- that's why operating under no pressure gives you either sizeable bonuses (+40% was recommended by Jason IIRC), or lets you skip the roll and succeed directly. But having points in a skill also means that the character is doing this enough to be better than the average shmuck... it represents something. Some of us sometimes skip the rolls, but narrate things based on the score written on the sheet -- so the narration would be different between someone with the skill at default, and somebody with +20% in it. It matters IMHO.

I would expect a hunter to be better at moving quietly and setting traps than a scribe or a chariot driver. The fact that, under most circumstances, they don't need to roll for this is irrelevant in my opinion: at some point, sooner or later, some situation is going to call for a roll, and at that moment, the player with the hunter character will be happy to step up... instead of everybody saying "I just have it at default", and everybody turning to the player who owns the lucky d10 dice.

Also, since herders do get Peaceful Cut, despite not needing to role except in dramatic circumstances, there's the implication that herders have a more dramatic time slaughtering their herds than hunters do their prey.

[Sid Vicarious]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Herders make much better Hunters than Hunters do.

In some respects so do Bandits.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Sid Vicarious said:

In some respects so do Bandits.

One PC in my group made a thief who turned hunter. That also worked.

[soltakss]

I would allow snares and camp defences to be done with Survival, leaving Devise for making of devices. Of course, if Hunters don't get Survival that is a problem.

As for Peaceful Cut, it was originally a Waha skill, for the sacred butchery of herd animals. Foundchild/Hunter gets it for the sending of souls back to the Great Mother, or whoever provides the game animals for them to hunt. so, it could be seen as a Cult skill rather than an Occupation skill.

[Akhôrahil]

36 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I would allow snares and camp defences to be done with Survival, leaving Devise for making of devices. Of course, if Hunters don't get Survival that is a problem.

As for Peaceful Cut, it was originally a Waha skill, for the sacred butchery of herd animals. Foundchild/Hunter gets it for the sending of souls back to the Great Mother, or whoever provides the game animals for them to hunt. so, it could be seen as a Cult skill rather than an Occupation skill.

P. 181: "This skill is also known as butchering. It includes the
ability to dismember an animal in the quickest and most
efficient way, and the ability to divide up a prey animal in
the traditional manner."

I also use it for skinning, where relevant.

I do think RQ3 had the better solution, though.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I think too that hunter could be a little bit "upgraded"

In another hand you can see different types of hunters

odayla the bear, hunting the man. Choose bandit

the trapper. Choose thief

the sniper. Choose hunter

 

I'm not an hunter but I imagine that you can hunt and let someone else do the dirty work. Your job is to kill the prey, the young guy with you will take the body, manage it (peaceful cut or go back to the village butcher)

Of course that would be better to add some skill %, but that's not mandatory to explain the choices

I m not sure it is good to compare % between careers; The question is more how much % you need to be efficient in a carreer (and a player).  A scribe will use a knowledge 0 1 or 2 times a scenario when a hunter or a warrior will use weapon skills so many times.

[Brootse]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

P. 181: "This skill is also known as butchering. It includes the
ability to dismember an animal in the quickest and most
efficient way, and the ability to divide up a prey animal in
the traditional manner."

I also use it for skinning, where relevant.

I do think RQ3 had the better solution, though.

Same and agreed.

[Tindalos]

8 hours ago, soltakss said:

As for Peaceful Cut, it was originally a Waha skill, for the sacred butchery of herd animals. Foundchild/Hunter gets it for the sending of souls back to the Great Mother, or whoever provides the game animals for them to hunt. so, it could be seen as a Cult skill rather than an Occupation skill.

If this was still true, it wouldn't be an Occupational skill for Herders, who regardless of faith get it at +30%.

I'd say there's reason enough for Hunters, and also Priests to have it as a skill. (Given how important the sacrifice of animals is to most priesthoods.)

[Brootse]

24 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

If this was still true, it wouldn't be an Occupational skill for Herders, who regardless of faith get it at +30%.

I'd say there's reason enough for Hunters, and also Priests to have it as a skill. (Given how important the sacrifice of animals is to most priesthoods.)

Good point, I hadn't thought about the sacrifices.

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Good point, I hadn't thought about the sacrifices.

Interesting, I would have thought that was part of Worship, but this is a great point. At the very least, you should be able to Augment with Peaceful Cut.

[Brootse]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Interesting, I would have thought that was part of Worship, but this is a great point. At the very least, you should be able to Augment with Peaceful Cut.

There are many overlapping skills in the rules, so Worship and Peaceful Cut doing some of the same things isn't out of the ordinary, and when you're sacrificing animals, I think that Augmenting Worship with Peaceful Cut would be proper.

[Lordabdul]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I do think RQ3 had the better solution, though.

What solution was that?

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m not sure it is good to compare % between careers; The question is more how much % you need to be efficient in a carreer (and a player).  A scribe will use a knowledge 0 1 or 2 times a scenario when a hunter or a warrior will use weapon skills so many times.

Sure -- we all know there's no such thing as "balance" in RuneQuest, for good or bad. I only compared the occupations' skill points as a semi tongue-in-cheek "proof" that the authors might not like Hunters and, a bit more seriously, as a potential "excuse" for GMs to house-rule a couple extra occupation skills (so that when another player asks "hey why can't I get more skill points too?" the GM can wave at the Hunter being last in order to shut them up).

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

10 hours ago, soltakss said:

As for Peaceful Cut, it was originally a Waha skill, for the sacred butchery of herd animals. Foundchild/Hunter gets it for the sending of souls back to the Great Mother, or whoever provides the game animals for them to hunt. so, it could be seen as a Cult skill rather than an Occupation skill.

If this was still true, it wouldn't be an Occupational skill for Herders, who regardless of faith get it at +30%.

On p 296 of the RQG Rules, it says for Foundchild ...

Quote

Associated Cults
• Odayla: Members of both cults participate together in the same Great Hunt ceremonies.
• Waha: Provides Foundchild with the skill of Peaceful Cut, taught to initiates.
• Yinkin: Members of both cults participate together in the same Great Hunt ceremonies.

So, Waha does teach Initiates of Foundchild the Peaceful cut skill.