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Flintnail Dwarves


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2 hours ago, davecake said:

creation of the Jolanti Tamestone consciousness and ability to act as independent servants, capable of carrying out orders, aka sentience, requires the participation of a Diamonddwarf of the Tin caste.

I only meant — jokingly — to ascribe a form of physicalism to the Mostali: animating an entity doesn’t require non-physical ‘spooky substance’ to be instilled in it. As to who has the secrets of the final stages of Jolanti creation, I am agnostic on that.

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On 12/2/2022 at 6:41 PM, mfbrandi said:

I only meant — jokingly — to ascribe a form of physicalism to the Mostali: animating an entity doesn’t require non-physical ‘spooky substance’ to be instilled in it.

Well, Mostali certainly believe in disembodied spirits, they just (at least the orthodox ones) think they are not terribly useful except as Energy. They seem to think any intellect in a disembodied spirit (even, or especially, a dead Mostali) is of little value, and may ultimately be somehow a delusion, a confused impression of living memories, hence their belief that an appropriate afterlife is just recycling of their energy into the whole.

Individualists believe otherwise, but of course that is what they are heretics. Apostates may too. The Flintnail cult seem to be extreme OpenHandists, likely so extreme that even more moderate OpenHandists might not associate with them, but it's not clear if they have fallen into full apostasy. Probably though. 

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On 5/19/2020 at 12:38 AM, Tindalos said:

  Pavis: Gateway to Adventure lists there as being 100 dwarves in New Pavis. (It also lists them as still having rock dwarves, gold dwarves, and iron dwarves, but that's not important to the maths)

That indeed is the official estimate :)

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What do the Gizinkizzi Dwarves use to carve tunnels? They are obviously smart enough to have made something beside a pick to bore through 1000's of cubic meters of rock and earth?

Are there machines from Old Pavis they still use (maybe they are broken) or do they have special gobblers with adamantium teeth that eat rock controlled by nimerlings or gremlins with GPS programed into them?

Or maybe, just maybe, they have a pet Krarsht?

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2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

What do the Gizinkizzi Dwarves use to carve tunnels?

Rock dwarfs use picks, it's their raison d'être. That said, there certainly are ways to use picks creatively so that you can use fire, water for quenching, or corrosive substances in order to make the rock pliant or crumble, like Hannibal or the Romans did.

There may be huge drills, possibly Jolanti- or Nilmerg-operated/-powered. There may be use of explosives.

Looking at the Pavis geology, the Flintnail Mostali have mostly to deal with sandstone, limestone and occasional layers of crumbly slate when they don't quarry the remains of the Faceless statue. There is not much in the way of solid bedrock unless you dig very deep.

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

They are obviously smart enough to have made something beside a pick to bore through 1000's of cubic meters of rock and earth?

Are they pressed for time? If not, their indifference to aging won't hurry them up.

 

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Are there machines from Old Pavis they still use (maybe they are broken) or do they have special gobblers with adamantium teeth that eat rock controlled by nimerlings or gremlins with GPS programed into them?

They do have anti-insect measures, to counter the boring maggots fielded by the uz as much as the Krarshtkids.

When it comes to eating rock, the Mostali harvest quite a bit for their cuisine, but unlike the uz, they consume it in processed form. The Flintnail dwarfs are masons on the surface, too, so if they can hew or cut some of the material into usable blocks, they will do so.

I guess that they know how to liquefy rock (and to solidify it again), but doing so is a bit of an anathema, taking the Stasis out of Stone. Still  one of their tools to deal with unwanted competition.

 

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Or maybe, just maybe, they have a pet Krarsht?

Kept imprisoned to sic on intruding trolls? Possibly. Tamed? Not likely. And whoever would be in charge of that would be a borderline apostate.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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In retrospect,  we might ask what makes a Mostali orthodox and what makes them heretical?  Is it merely a matter of numbers?  Can we show that there is a true mostali path?  Do Mostali live forever if they keep true to their programming like the Brithini?  Does this mean that individualists cannot take part in this blessing?  I think not.  Isidilian. for example, is a Dwarf hero and he is also unquestionably an Openhandist, and immortal.  If there were to be more individualists Octramondists, Openhandists, or even Vegetarianists than the alleged  "standard" "non-heretical" dwarves, would the system change?

It would be good to clarify the relationship between Isidilian and Flintnail.

There is much discussion of the "fall of Greatway" but really Greatway only "fell" to seeing things slightly differently than the Decamony.

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

In retrospect,  we might ask what makes a Mostali orthodox and what makes them heretical?  Is it merely a matter of numbers?  Can we show that there is a true mostali path?  Do Mostali live forever if they keep true to their programming like the Brithini?  Does this mean that individualists cannot take part in this blessing?  I think not. 

Orthodoxy is defined as adherence to the decisions of the Decamony, the likes of which was set up by the World Machine itself.  To say that the Decamony is wrong is tantamount to saying that the World Machine is wrong.   I don't think Individualists live forever as they have embraced their own mortality to become True Individuals.  They attach great importance to the claim that dwarves have souls which live on after death, which wouldn't be necessary if they were unaging like the other dwarves.

 

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Isidilian. for example, is a Dwarf hero and he is also unquestionably an Openhandist, and immortal.  If there were to be more individualists Octramondists, Openhandists, or even Vegetarianists than the alleged  "standard" "non-heretical" dwarves, would the system change?

Isidilian is not a Dwarf Hero but a True Mostali,  a demigod if you will.  People claim he is Openhandist but I think he predates Openhandism.  He is a relic of the days when Stone was Alive.  He has no suspicion or distrust of outsiders because he was made in the days when there was no suspicion or distrust and he cannot deviate from that without repudiating the World Machine.  Openhandism is a philosophy that came after as inferior dwarves tried to emulate Isidilian's behaviour to survive the Gods War with limited success.  Openhandism is simply the observance of an obsolete code ill-suited to the Modern Age.  

If there were more heretical and apostate dwarves than orthodox dwarves then the definition of Orthodoxy will not change for only the Orthodox keep contact with the Decamony, in the saqme way that the Brithini are vastly outnumbered but tehir ways are still True.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

It would be good to clarify the relationship between Isidilian and Flintnail.

Isidilian is a Quicksilver Mostali.  Flintnail is a Rock Mostali.  Flintnail was the product of the same age as Isidilian but is far less flamboyant.  Like Isidilian, he is willing to work with outsiders and strangers but he does not inspire the dwarves around him to similar acts of free-thinking.  

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

There is much discussion of the "fall of Greatway" but really Greatway only "fell" to seeing things slightly differently than the Decamony.

Greatway fell because it allied itself with Dorastor only to suffer the assassinations at the hands of treacherous elves.  They admitted error when contacted by the Decamony and sent troops to march against Dorastor.  Their successors proved themselves incapable of maintaining orthodoxy and lapsed.  That is why Greatway has fallen.  

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6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Do Mostali live forever if they keep true to their programming like the Brithini?

Yes, and basically, the dwarfs are the Brithini:

  • short (Brithini average around 5 feet tall — GtG, p. 48)
  • conditionally immortal: “Only bad dwarfs die. While you and I fulfill our appointed tasks, we shall live.” (GoG The Foreman’s Words)
  • Mostal is not pictured (e.g. GoG Prosopaedia, p. 13)
  • their magic is sorcery (e.g. GoG Cults Book, p. 57)
  • Mostal not a “cult” but a philosophy/socio-economic complex (e.g. GoG Cults Book, p. 57)
  • born into castes (e.g. GoG Cults Book, p. 57)
  • Mostali: “impersonal processes … make up the world” (e.g. GoG Cults Book, p. 6); “Mostal is the World Machine, now dead.” (GoG The Foreman’s Words);
    Even the pious Malkioni: “The world is the result of interactions between impersonal natural powers … we collectively name these forces the Invisible God” (GoG What the Wizard Says)
  • :20-power-stasis:= stability, law; :20-rune-law: = unchanging, reliable (RQ3 Glorantha Book, p. 13)
  • no afterlife for dwarfs; “The Brithini are … atheists who do not believe in an afterlife, … or even worship the Invisible God.” (GtG, p. 53)

So the only ostensible differences are: (a) the dwarfs can be much shorter than the shortish Brithini; (b) the Brithini think that “god” was never alive and that the dwarfs are delusionally optimistic in their Nietzschean belief that god is merely dead (and so may be fixed/resurrected).

Digression:

Spoiler

Interestingly, perhaps: “You [i.e. a dwarf] were made like other tools. Like the World Machine itself” (The Foreman’s Words). But also “Before creation, the World Machine, personified as Mostal by the ignorant, is set into motion. This event, which dwarfs alone still remember, begins all the impersonal processes which make the world” (GoG Cults Book, p. 6). “The World Machine, as part of its designed function, manufactures a race of beings to oversee and tend to it. These are the first dwarfs” (GoG Cults Book, p. 7). So there would seem to be room for Dwarfs to believe in a One, the Maker/Creator who made the World Machine, but not them. But consistency seems impossible to find.

 

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19 hours ago, metcalph said:

Isidilian is not a Dwarf Hero but a True Mostali,  a demigod if you will. 

And since he was around before the Dawn (I think), I have to ask... what Gold Wheel Dancer does Isidilian have? Also would the Gold Wheel Dancers not also be Brithini and could they be "fire Dwarves" or related to them even though they are fire versus earth? is that correct?

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21 hours ago, metcalph said:

Isidilian is not a Dwarf Hero but a True Mostali,  a demigod if you will.  People claim he is Openhandist but I think he predates Openhandism.  He is a relic of the days when Stone was Alive.  He has no suspicion or distrust of outsiders because he was made in the days when there was no suspicion or distrust and he cannot deviate from that without repudiating the World Machine.  Openhandism is a philosophy that came after as inferior dwarves tried to emulate Isidilian's behaviour to survive the Gods War with limited success.  Openhandism is simply the observance of an obsolete code ill-suited to the Modern Age.  

I like this interpretation a lot.  The idea that Openhandism effectively predates the present interpretations of the Decamony is novel, and you express it in a way that fits.  On the other hand, it does bring into question whether Openhandism is in fact a heresy at all.  Perhaps the Decamony are the heretics, given that they have closed themselves off from the world to live in a permanent siege mentality.

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Although Metcalph's arguments are quite compelling, I still think that Isidilian is a diamonddwarf, rather than a True Mostali, but it is true that there is a True Quicksilver Mostali in Dwarf Run. Isidilian is the "face" in the arrangement, exactly for the same reasons he proposes. A True Mostali could not comprehend the modern world, while Isidilian is a shrewd politician that has weathered quite a few crisis and still manages to play an empire against the other. Many people meet him, but none understand him.

Having access to a True Quicksilver Mostali that trusts him implicitly will be enough to preclude any Decamony reprisal for his own policies, as any hope of recreating more True Mostali will require its help.

I would have the cannon cult as Isidilian's own creation, one he is inordinately proud, which is why it is relatively easy to secure their services.

I suspect Ginkizzie and Flintnail have some similar arrangement, a worldly dwarf with access to a True Mostali.

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19 hours ago, JRE said:

rather than a True Mostali, but it is true that there is a True Quicksilver Mostali in Dwarf Run. Isidilian is the "face" in the arrangement, exactly for the same reasons he proposes. A True Mostali could not comprehend the modern world, while Isidilian is a shrewd politician that has weathered quite a few crisis and still manages to play an empire against the other. Many people meet him, but none understand him.

There are actually four Mostali at Dwarf Run... Isidilian is lower right. They only come out when their services are really needed!

image.thumb.png.2478ae75d5b1dc03766349c633b37e0b.png

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On 12/5/2022 at 2:03 AM, Erol of Backford said:

What do the Gizinkizzi Dwarves use to carve tunnels? They are obviously smart enough to have made something beside a pick to bore through 1000's of cubic meters of rock and earth?

Are there machines from Old Pavis they still use (maybe they are broken) or do they have special gobblers with adamantium teeth that eat rock controlled by nimerlings or gremlins with GPS programed into them?

Or maybe, just maybe, they have a pet Krarsht?

Glorantha being Glorantha, as I write about the dwarves in Vol. 02 I am assuming that they must have excavation magic

And have included something about that. Just a basic spell that is available to their human followers and Pavis worshippers

A hint that they have more powerful magic of their own

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>>After the Too Tall Battle, the Faceless Statue collapsed, all magical energies exhausted. Its body made the great quarry whose stones built the city’s interior. Construction was swift, thanks to the statue’s stone and dwarfish craft.<<

>>Dorasar’s expedition made walls of stone, quarried from the Faceless stone quarry down river<<

>>MAIN QUARRY: This consists of body and leg stones from the Faceless Statue. Some veins of organ stone are rumored to still exist.<<

Quotes from the Pavis & Rubble PODs. Post related to a discussion elsewhere, but I can't find it now, and is maybe more on topic here

The image of the Faceless Statue lying across the Rubble seems to be a modern creation of the kind that contradicts previous information, which is inevitable when a system lasts for so long

The original text seems to say clearly that the majority of the statue all collapsed in one place (or at least most of it did), sufficient for this to become  'the great quarry', which is further clarified as the Main Quarry

As much as I love the image of the whole thing lying across the Rubble it seems to go against the original material and imply that no quarry is indeed the focus

Possible Solution: the dwarves got out their (equivalent to) angle-grinders, sliced it up and dragged it all (or at least as much as they could reasonably do) to one location for convenience. "It's body made the great quarry" could be because there was already a low area of ground or a marsh and the dwarves dragged its pieces there as a convenient storage spot?

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3 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

I am assuming that they must have excavation magic

I like the old hi-ho hi-ho with picks and implements of destruction... they live nearly forever and can be recycled. They'll move cubic KM of earth with shovels.

3 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

As much as I love the image of the whole thing lying across the Rubble it seems to go against the original material and imply that no quarry is indeed the focus

Anything that sank into the marshy areas near the River would be quarries I assume, as would any area the Statue fell. It was well over 100' at its chest when sprawled horizontally. Many sections of the Statue could have crumbled into brick size elements or house sized along with arms that are 75-100' in diameter. I say have fun with it, Players aren't going to scrutinize how it falls or where a quarry is?

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35 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

I like the old hi-ho hi-ho with picks and implements of destruction... they live nearly forever and can be recycled. They'll move cubic KM of earth with shovels.

Oh I love it too. Two of the background dwarfs in Vol. 02 are called 'Appeh' & 'Dorpi' for a reason! :)

I just imagine that they do so aided with some simple Flintnail magic so as to be more effective at it

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16 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

I just imagine that they do so aided with some simple Flintnail magic so as to be more effective at it

Gnomes, machines, Joltoni (spelling), constructs, they all make it more fun.

 

21 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

pet Krarsht

I keep going back to this and the Chaos Dwarves of the Tunneled Hills! More scenarios ideas boiling over. What fun.

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On 2/8/2023 at 7:28 AM, Ian A. Thomson said:

Glorantha being Glorantha, as I write about the dwarves in Vol. 02 I am assuming that they must have excavation magic

And have included something about that.

I assumed their excavation magic was basically earth elementals, and maybe Jolanti with big wheelbarrows and shovels and mauls and mattocks, myself. Note that Earth elementals can pulverise rock.

It certainly seems almost all the Flintnail magic is Mostali Maker magic (ie special dwarf sorcery), except maybe what magic ranking members get from Pavis as associate members of that cult (which may be as little as use of the City Harmony spell etc). 

The most unusual thing is that they seem to use mostly Rock mostali magic (cutting, carving, and building with stone and rock), but elementals and such (elementals, Jolanti, and other dwarven creatures) also seem to be connected to Flintnail, but are Tin dwarf magic. Are the Fintnail cult using only Rock Mostali magic plus Pavis magic, or do they use spells from other castes? They certainly seem to be very based around the magic of the Faceless Stone Statue, which seems a giant Jolanti, but you don't need Tin Dwarf magic to use and command Jolanti, only to create one. 

Of the four rune spells that Flintnail cult had in RQ2 (Mold Stone, Shape Metal, Support, and Warrior of Stone) two are in RQG as 'Mostali Sorcery'. So Mold Stone is now Shape Stone (Rock dwarf), Support is  now Stabilize Stone (Rock Dwarf). But in RQG it seems there will be no Shape Metal, instead multiple Shape <metal> spells, with Shape Iron as an example (an Iron Dwarf spell) - it would be  interesting to know which metals the Flintnail cult can work with (Is Shape Bronze available to all castes, as there is no Bronze caste? Does the Fintnail cult know how to magically work with Brass, Gold, Silver, Copper, and especially Iron? Probably not). 

Warrior of Stone in RQ2 is a spell that puts an Earth elemental into a pre-prepared statue, but its temporal - so perhaps the Fiintnail cult are experts at the Rock dwarf role in Jolanti creation (creating the Rock body), but can not replicate the true process of creating a true Jolanti (not surprising, it requires a Tin caste Diamonddwarf, plus equipment like a huge iron vat). I would guess that in RQG it would be like other Maker magic - a sorcery spell, with duration determined in the normal sorcery way (so potentially quite long), but requiring one point of POW per casting. But it being about commanding elementals suggests it would be a Tin dwarf spell?

Also, where does the Flintnail cult get the elementals, as summoning Elementals is Tin Dwarf magic, and while in RQ2 it was Rune Magic, I don't think Flintnail has its own Rune magic in RQG (only access to Rune Magic via Pavis, and Pavis doesn't have much either, certainly not access to elementals larger than small). 

If we follow the HeroQuest Glorantha writeup in Pavis: Gateway to Adventure for both Pavis and Flintnail, both cults are primarily sorcerous (Flintnail almost entirely so). If I had to guess, there would be a bit less emphasis on sorcery in the RQG Pavis writeup, but presuming there is still some sorcerous knowledge in the Pavis cult, perhaps it is the case that in addition to Mostali Maker magic, some Fiintnail cultists have learnt enough human sorcery to learn how to summon Earth elementals? Perhaps their sorcerous knowledge is limited to eg mastering the Earth Rune, and such spells as Summon Earth Elemental, Dominate Earth Elemental, Bind Earth Elemental? There aren't many Earth sorcery spells (Create Sensation is not that useful without other Illusion spells, Geomancy seems plausible, Neutralise Earth not very useful unless they wish to fight Earth cults, Enhance Con I guess?). Though Earth would give access to its minor runes of Darkness and Fire. It makes sense that even with access to sorcery from the Pavis cult, they would know very limited sorcery (apart from dwarf general dwarf resistance to learning anything new), as the Pavis sorcery is EWF era magic and written in Auld Wyrmish, and almost extinct now, and quite disconnected from the Western sorcery mainstream (it would take someone highly skilled in both languages, and both traditions, to translate spells).

Dwarf sorcery is traditionally Stasis, if they did have access to Stasis Rune sorcery that might include spells such as Castback and Neutralise Armor, but I don't recall any mention anywhere of Mostali having access to that sort of magic. If we take the Pavis: GTA writeup as true (as there exist finished docs for Robin Laws Pavis and Big Rubble books, Chaosium presumably knows the answers, but I don't) the main Grimoire (whatever a grimoire means in RQG), the Book of The Faceless King, has the Stasis and Harmony Runes, though, so there is some connection, Stasis rune mastery isn't implausible at all. And Pavis is associated with the Man Rune (which gives such spells as Dominate (Humanoid), Speak to Mind, and Tap Body, though only Speak to Mind seems very likely a Pavis cult spell). 

The Book of the Faceless King contains a few known spells - Soothe the Dyspeptic Stomach, which is actually (despite the poetic name) something very much like Neutralise Darkness, just targeting an area not a person (super handy against trolls), Harmony of the Parts (suppresses Passions like Logical Clarity or Solace of the Logical Mind, though presumably with completely different Runes and main effect), and the spell to enter and leave the Room Without Doors where Pavis lives. The very basis of the Grimoire appears to originate in investigation of the magic of the Faceless Stone Statue, so presumably the Flintnail cult was heavily involved, so it seems likely senior Flintnail members might understand it well. It is supposed to contain a number of other spells too. 

There are other grimoires and spells described in the HeroQuest Pavis cult. The Book of Treaties is summoning the various small elementals may have reverted to being Rune magic? It would not be very useful as sorcery spells in RQG. The Alchemical Wedding of Lord Pavis, a Harmony magic grimoire, is not described as its spells go (and the only RQG Harmony spell described is Mend Flesh, which doesn't seem very appropriate) - I'd keep it as an ancient secret of the Pavis cult that barely anyone today understands, maybe magic for dealing with EWF magic to recreate/heroquest to the Green/Golden age. And the Book of the Original Man, while containing (non-magical?) greetings to elves and dwarves, and presumably parts of the rituals that keep the Flintnail dwarves and elves of the Garden friendly to Pavis, and at least occasional civil dealings with the trolls, also contains the rituals to allow breeding between different Man rune species (not AFAIK used since the birth of Ginkizzie in Pavis's time, so may require hero quest level great rituals). While allegedly penned by Lord Pavis, obviously some similar magic was used at the conception of Pavis himself (a half-elf) himself, so the spells likely in part or total predate Pavis. 

So after that very long digression (sorry, that simple question about what sort of construction magic was easy on the surface, but got a brain dump of everything about Flintnail and Pavis possible magic to answer thoroughly) I'd say the Flintnail cult excavation and construction magic is mostly Mostali Maker magic of the Rock caste, and they use Earth elementals (both directly, and to animate statues). We have no definite information either way as whether they use Tin dwarf magic or other sorcery to deal with Earth elementals, but using adapted human sorcery is quite plausible, and seems less problematic than the cult having access to Tin dwarf magic, as senior Flintnail cult members will have access to broader sorcery via the Pavis cult, including all manner of odd sorcery beyond Mostali magic, but still limited as Pavis sorcery is weird. 

 

 

 

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On 12/5/2022 at 2:00 AM, Joerg said:

I guess that they know how to liquefy rock (and to solidify it again), but doing so is a bit of an anathema, taking the Stasis out of Stone.

Mold Stone is literally one of the caste spells for orthodox Rock Mostali, so I don't think it is anathema, though that's not quite full liquefaction, it certainly makes it very mutable. Carefully applied Change is definitely part of the Orthodox Mostali world view, not anathema, they are even proud of it - the mythic contest of Changing ability of Quicksilver versus Vadrus for example.

Usually Mostali seem to liquefy rock and metal through the simple method of the application of enormous amounts of heat, though the Flintnail cult does not seem to have access to this (not having any Brass dwarves etc). 

 

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On 12/5/2022 at 2:07 PM, Darius West said:

In retrospect,  we might ask what makes a Mostali orthodox and what makes them heretical?  Is it merely a matter of numbers?  Can we show that there is a true mostali path?  Do Mostali live forever if they keep true to their programming like the Brithini?

The difference between heretic and apostate is the more important question, I think (and it may be so for Brithini too). Heresy is disagreement with the Orthodox Decamony, but disagreement that is known to be valid as far as maintaining dwarf agelessness goes - it is a disagreement of philosophy and policy, but not of the fundamental nature of Mostali life. Apostasy, however, is departure from the Mostali way in practice, and results in aging. There may be degrees of apostasy - some apostates may still be very long live by human standards - but it's not clear into which category the Flintnail dwarves fall (they are certainly at least OpenHandist heretics, and seem to have some Individualist leanings too, at least in their beliefs about the afterlife). They seem to maintain caste restrictions, which is one big issue. And another issue is use of non-Mostali magic - I think general sorcery is fine, though frowned on by conservatives (and Silver dwarves do use a wider variety of sorcery than most dwarves), but spirit magic and Rune magic supposedly are not - whether using Pavis Rune magic is enough to make Flintnail dwarves apostate and aging is another open question.

Of course Ginkizzie seems to be unaging and a Priest of Pavis, but Ginkizzie is, once again, an exception. 

 

On 12/5/2022 at 3:48 PM, metcalph said:

 I don't think Individualists live forever as they have embraced their own mortality to become True Individuals.  They attach great importance to the claim that dwarves have souls which live on after death, which wouldn't be necessary if they were unaging like the other dwarves.

Personally, I think it is possible to be an Individualist and non-apostate, but that Individualism often leads dwarves to follow individual paths into apostasy. Those Individualist dwarves who remain part of Mostali society, and do not learn inappropriate magics, are mere heretics, and such things as greatly valuing the individual creative works created in their rest periods, aspiring to eventually change their work assignments, or attempting to understand non-dwarf thinking are compatible with the way of Mostal (much as conservatives disagree). But of course many eventually do such things as leave dwarf society, or practice worship. 

Also noting that Chark the Liberator, origin of the heresy, met Arkat and Arkat's knowledge is said to be the secret of the heresy makes me think that Individualism is, at its deep core, perhaps a form of Illumination, and that enables them to continue to receive the benefits of Mostals way while reaching outside of it with different magic etc. Maybe that is the true secret of Individualism, a form of Arkati Illumination. 

 

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On 12/5/2022 at 8:43 PM, mfbrandi said:

Yes, and basically, the dwarfs are the Brithini:

I have a personal theory that the Revelations of Now, the rules that Zzabur created that set the rules for the Brithini that made them unaging, are not just a set of rules but a giant spell to make the original Malkioni of Danmalastan into imitations of the Dwarves, with the strict caste lifestyle acting like a great lifelong ritual to maintain it (in both cases). As usual for Zzabur, there is a fair bit of hubris and misunderstanding (Zzabur is perfect intellect, but misunderstands the significance of emotion, instinct, and the condition of mortality, among other things). He sees mortality as error, and attempts to eliminate it from his people, and he sees all other sources of knowledge than his own way as sources of Error, so puts those like himself in charge. But one of his several mistakes is to greatly misunderstand individuality (he predates it!), and so his rigid rules of right behaviour are also used by the Vadeli who follow its specifics but reject its intent, and everything goes wrong. The Vadeli being living evidence of Zzabur's error is why he hates them so much (most other he regards with condescension and pity, not hate). The Mostali also have difficulty dealing with individuality within their philosophy, and for similar reasons, but its far worse for the Brithini, as Zzabur introduced the idea of hierarchy, and also confronting and correcting Error, so making their society less stable. 

The modern Malkioni don't accept either the idea that its a specific spell and attempt to change who the Brithini are, or that its taken from the Mostali way, and concentrate on the idea of Zzabur as rational (if not moral) exemplar. 

[Crossposting to the Dumbest theory thread]

 

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On 2/8/2023 at 7:43 AM, Ian A. Thomson said:

Possible Solution: the dwarves got out their (equivalent to) angle-grinders,

The dwarves equivalent to angle grinders is the various Cut spells. Cut Stone takes a point of POW, but it affects 1 cubic meter of stone per point of strength at a time, and lets it be rapidly divided up into pieces. With a decent bit of ritual work and support, that easily goes through many tons of stone at a time. 

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On 12/7/2022 at 4:54 PM, JRE said:

I suspect Ginkizzie and Flintnail have some similar arrangement, a worldly dwarf with access to a True Mostali.

Regardless of their nature, they only co-existed for a short time, with Ginkizzie only being born after most of the great deeds of Pavis and Ginkizzie were over, and Flintnail departing soon after (unless there is a conspiracy theory here that Flintnail did not depart, but is secretly still around, perhaps in the Room Without Doors).

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On 12/6/2022 at 11:04 AM, Erol of Backford said:

I have to ask... what Gold Wheel Dancer does Isidilian have? Also would the Gold Wheel Dancers not also be Brithini and could they be "fire Dwarves" or related to them even though they are fire versus earth? is that correct?

Everything I've ever seen suggests the Gold Wheel Dancers are their own independent race. But they certainly aren't Brithini. The idea that Gold Wheel Dancers are beings made of living Gold, and thus predate the death of Stone etc could work pretty well, though! Or that they have similar powers of self-transformation as Diamond Dwarves, that by transforming parts of themselves into useful tools Diamond Dwarves are just partially emulating the Gold Wheel Dancers, who can transform their entire selves into useful tools. 

The question then becomes why aren't there ancient races of other living metals! Maybe not all wheels, but beings of living Quicksilver or Lead or Copper?

 

 

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