What are vegetables? And what is meat?

[Brootse]

A humakti bisonrider in my campaign rolled the following geases: wear no metal armor in left arm, eat no meat on Windsday, eat no vegetables, and ride no animals one day per week (Windsday was chosen). But which things are counted as vegetables? A case could be made that any edible plant matter is a vegetable. Or that grains, nuts and fruits aren't. And what is meat? Technically poultry and seafood count too, but in common parlance not. How have you handled, or how would you handle this in your Glorantha?

[Lordabdul]

34 minutes ago, Brootse said:

How have you handled, or how would you handle this in your Glorantha?

Does it matter?   I mean, do you expect a potentially ambiguous situation anytime soon in your campaign?

"What's a vegetable?" is not a question you can ever answer in a strict fashion. You can start with the famous "tomatoes are actually fruits", where you need to differentiate between botanical classification and culinary classification. And then you can start asking if, maybe, your Humakti can eat rhubarb? (if there's any on Glorantha?). And so on. Just wing it -- don't think about it as "RPG rules", but more similar to what a vegetarian would think (and then pick the opposite or something).

Edited May 18, 2020 by lordabdul

[Austin]

42 minutes ago, Brootse said:

How have you handled, or how would you handle this in your Glorantha?

Just sort-of off the cuff, I'd treat meat as anything that comes from the Herd Mother, and I'd treat veggies as unprocessed stuff from Flamal. I wouldn't count breads/baked grains, etc.

I bet that Praxian probably eats a lot of dairy products, just to be safe. 

14 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

"What's a vegetable?" is not a question you can ever answer in a strict fashion. You can start with the famous "tomatoes are actually fruits", where you need to differentiate between botanical classification and culinary classification.

When in doubt, I'd use a culinary sense of this--unless it's a taboo/caste restriction/geas acquired by a sorcerer, in which case I'd go with scientific. Basically just the general things we think about as veggies on the elementary school food pyramid.

[Akhôrahil]

One practical implication is that if it means “vegetable matter” rather than “veggies”, by any standards your cost of living should increase. Meat isn’t cheap.

[Austin]

Also just wanna note real quick that Aldryami do count as a salad and no I'm not accepting alternative opinions.

[Brootse]

15 minutes ago, Crel said:

Just sort-of off the cuff, I'd treat meat as anything that comes from the Herd Mother, and I'd treat veggies as unprocessed stuff from Flamal. I wouldn't count breads/baked grains, etc.

I bet that Praxian probably eats a lot of dairy products, just to be safe. 

When in doubt, I'd use a culinary sense of this--unless it's a taboo/caste restriction/geas acquired by a sorcerer, in which case I'd go with scientific. Basically just the general things we think about as veggies on the elementary school food pyramid.

This is a great Gloranthn answer!

[soltakss]

59 minutes ago, Brootse said:

But which things are counted as vegetables?

If the part that you eat grows in the ground then it is a vegetable, if it hangs from something then it is a fruit or a nut. That's what I use.

So, carrots, potatoes, tubers and so on are vegetables. Things like marrows are not, as they grow on the ground, not in the ground. Rhubarb is not, as it grows out of the ground and you only eat the stalks. 

It isn't an exact definition, but it works for my games.

1 hour ago, Brootse said:

And what is meat? Technically poultry and seafood count too, but in common parlance not.

If it was a living beast then it has meat. However, if there is another geas of "Never eat the flesh of birds" or "Never eat fish", then you can either use meat as "flesh of beasts" or meat as "all of the above". 

What about Aldryami? Do they count as meat? What about half-elves?

[Guest Vile Traveller]

9 minutes ago, soltakss said:

If the part that you eat grows in the ground then it is a vegetable, if it hangs from something then it is a fruit or a nut.

As a landscape architect and horticultural-type person, allow me to express horror at this definition! 😱😜

There's a D&D saying that seems appropriate here. "Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting a tomato into a fruit salad."

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, soltakss said:

What about half-elves?

Is that a thing (barring possibly Pavis)?

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Is that a thing (barring possibly Pavis)?

All it needs is a Zorak Zorani or iron mostali with an axe...

Edited May 18, 2020 by Joerg

[soltakss]

13 minutes ago, Vile said:

As a landscape architect and horticultural-type person, allow me to express horror at this definition! 😱😜

Better to be safe and not eat anything plant-like.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

41 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Better to be safe and not eat anything plant-like.

Ah, but there again we are at the crossroads of defining "what is plant-like?" 🤔 I imagine photosynthesis alone would not be a sufficient factor, even discounting parasites and mycotrophs.

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, Vile said:

Ah, but there again we are at the crossroads of defining "what is plant-like?"

Meat - Eating something tied to the Beast Rune/Man Rune/Dragon Rune/Dragonewt Rune

Plant - Eating something tied to the Plant Rune

Of course, Aldryami are tied to Plant and Elves are tied to Man, so eating an Elf could be both eating Plant and Meat.

Whatever definitions we use, someone will say "But what about" or "My definition is ..."

Do Humakti really pull out a book of flora and fauna before having  a meal? I very much doubt it. If they see something is suspect, they'll ask about it and then decide whether they can eat it or not, probably erring on the side of caution.

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Whatever definitions we use, someone will say "But what about" or "My definition is ..."

Do Humakti really pull out a book of flora and fauna before having  a meal? I very much doubt it. If they see something is suspect, they'll ask about it and then decide whether they can eat it or not, probably erring on the side of caution.

Yeah exactly, that's why I was saying it's no use to try and come up with a strict definition, or to try and make it a "rule" in the "RPG rules lawyering" sense.

It might be worth it to call a vegetarian or vegan friend (if you have any ) and ask them if they have heated arguments about whether it's OK to eat this or that on online forums... it might be some good inspiration to add a bit of drama to the OP's Humakti character... and I imagine that "heated debate" might take a whole new dimension when we're talking about initiates of the Death God...  "YOU ARE EATING.... RHUBARB!!!???" (takes out 2-handed sword, blade lights up, eyes turn black....)  

I like the idea of basing decision on either Rune affinities (anything with 1% or more in Plant Rune?) or Spirits (anything around which dryads are living for instance?)

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Meat - Eating something tied to the Beast Rune/Man Rune/Dragon Rune/Dragonewt Rune

Of course a Humakti might argue that meat comes from the Beast Rune, and not the others, therefore hunting expeditions to the Dragon's Eye are perfectly fine.  And of course, Walktapus doesn't count as any of the above, so Beatpot's cookbook will come in real handy. 😉

[PhilHibbs]

13 hours ago, Brootse said:

How have you handled, or how would you handle this in your Glorantha?

I discussed it with the player and came up with a simple list of things that aren't vegetables, which I think included such things as nuts, grains, and fruit. Tomatoes only grow on The Red Moon so they aren't really an issue. As long as the player and the GM understand the rules, there's no problem. I'm not into setting etymological traps.

[Bill the barbarian]

20 hours ago, Crel said:

Also just wanna note real quick that Aldryami do count as a salad and no I'm not accepting alternative opinions.

Quiet, and eat yer veggies young Crel!

 

20 hours ago, Brootse said:

This is a great Gloranthn answer!

Yep!

 

20 hours ago, soltakss said:

What about Aldryami? Do they count as meat?

I am going with the trolls... and Crel. As the dark troll mom says to her spawn, “Eat yer veggies, ya bunch o’ ingrates, or I’ll throw ya out with the enlo!"

 

20 hours ago, soltakss said:

 What about half-elves?

Thankfully, for those that sort categories, there are not a lot of those around.

 

20 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Is that a thing (barring possibly Pavis)?

That is the one I was thinking of.

 

12 hours ago, soltakss said:

Meat - Eating something tied to the Beast Rune/Man Rune/Dragon Rune/Dragonewt Rune

 

There we go, you join Crel, with good Gloranthan logic with that post!

 

10 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah exactly, that's why I was saying it's no use to try and come up with a strict definition, or to try and make it a "rule" in the "RPG rules lawyering" sense.

 

I think you are preaching to the wrong denomination here good lord abdul.

 

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

  And of course, Walktapus doesn't count as any of the above, so Beatpot's cookbook will come in real handy. 😉

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!

BeatPot drew kitchen duties again...

Run Away!!!!!!!!

[Richard S.]

21 hours ago, Vile said:

There's a D&D saying that seems appropriate here. "Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting a tomato into a fruit salad."

And charisma is selling a tomato-based fruit salad!

[GAZZA]

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

And charisma is selling a tomato-based fruit salad!

And strength is pureeing that tomato into soup!