Nevermet's Manirian Scratchpad

[metcalph]

On 6/19/2020 at 5:17 AM, Nevermet said:

Oh, they definitely worship Issaries.  As for Castelein, given relics from his body are housed in temples to the Invisible God, he's definitely honoured somehow.  Veneration isn't a thing any more, or I would say that.

It's a thing among the Hrestoli to experience Joy AFAIK.

On 6/19/2020 at 5:17 AM, Nevermet said:

I think that the Guide's depiction of the Trader Princes goes beyond hiring some wizards.  Every city has a temple to the Invisible God, the Trader Princes are explicitly henotheists, and there is a local tradition of Malkioni philosophy (as small and decentralized as it may be). 

Which has nothing to do with my original point that basing the Trader Princes philosophy upon Castelain is misplaced.  Castelain is an explorer, a Marco Polo seeking fabulous lands of riches; what Castelain is not is a Thinker.  Malkioni philosophy is not based on heroic deeds of derring- do but abstract enquiries.  Insofar as the Trader Princes are henotheists, it's something they've brought with them from Safelster and isn't anything thought up by Castelain.

As for the wizards being largely foreigners, I stand by that.  The society of the Trader Princes is not suited to producing wizards in large numbers as it doesn't have any large cities.  Thus if the Trader Princes want sorcerous dominance over the local Orlanthi, they are likely to consider hiring foreign sorcerors, such as the Arkati (from Safelster or Arkat's Hold), Zzaburi (from God Forgot), Rokari (from Seshnela), Lhankorings (from Nochet) or even Ramalians.  Simply relying on the local talent won't get them very far.

 

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Enerali were originally Malkioni having been enslaved by the Mostali before their liberation by the Vingkotlings in the Storm Age.  Now you might argue that there was some point in which Ehilm was unknown to the Malkioni of the Land of Logic (Early Golden Age perhaps).  I consider that immaterial because IMO the Malkioni had long considered Ehil to be the Sun in the Storm Age.

The Enerali might have been partially descended from enslaved Malioni, but not all. 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

The Enerali might have been partially descended from enslaved Malioni, but not all. 

But their mythology is still a fusion of Malkioni and Orlanthi myths.  In addition Zzabur himself knows Ehilm by that name.

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

But their mythology is still a fusion of Malkioni and Orlanthi myths.  In addition Zzabur himself knows Ehilm by that name.

And they know Zzabur as Seras (perhaps, or is Seras Malkion)? Similarity of names simply denotes contact, at some point.

I am unaware of any Enerali myths that show Malkioni elements. There was certainly interaction in the world of Time.

In my attempt to outline a history of the West, I have assumed that the Enerali, Enjoreli, and perhaps the Pendali, Redeli and Bemuri were part Kachasti, explaining why they were more sophisticated than the true Hsunchen, but their gods seem to be native. There may have been a cultural synthesis, but it is impossible to tell to what degree. 

Edited June 20, 2020 by M Helsdon

[metcalph]

10 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

And they know Zzabur as Seras (perhaps, or is Seras Malkion)? Similarity of names simply denotes contact, at some point.

Don't know where that's from.

10 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I am unaware of any Enerali myths that show Malkioni elements.

Because their memories of the period is viewed through a Vingkotling lens (just like Troy is viewed through a Mycenaean lens)

10 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

In my attempt to outline a history of the West, I have assumed that the Enerali, Enjoreli, and perhaps the Pendali, Redeli and Bemuri were part Kachasti, explaining why they were more sophisticated than the true Hsunchen, but their gods seem to be native. There may have been a cultural synthesis, but it is impossible to tell to what degree. 

The mythical maps say otherwise.  

[M Helsdon]

24 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Because their memories of the period is viewed through a Vingkotling lens (just like Troy is viewed through a Mycenaean lens)

The Enerali were never Vingkotlings. So: there's no evidence of the Enerali having any Malkioni myths?

Other Kachasti further east may have joined the Vingkotlings.

25 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The mythical maps say otherwise.  

Can you identify your source? Doesn't seem to be the God Learner maps in the Guide.

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Enerali were never Vingkotlings. So: there's no evidence of the Enerali having any Malkioni myths?

I never said they were.  They were however liberated from their mostali slavery by Vingkotlings and afterwards took on Orlanthi customs.  And I didn't say they had Malkioni myths.  What I said was they view the myths (of the time when they were Malkioni) as if they were Vingkotlings just as the Greeks viewed Troy.

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Other Kachasti further east may have joined the Vingkotlings.

And the evidence for the Enerali not have been Malkioni is what?  They live in the area which was taken over by Nida and later liberated by the Vingkotlings!

5 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Can you identify your source? Doesn't seem to be the God Learner maps in the Guide.

Try Guide map p688 which has arrows from the Vingkotlings past Top of the World and Nida on both sides...  Also the text:

Quote

Kachisti: [...] Suddenly
the Mostali erupted out of Nida, destroying
most of the Kachisti cities. The Vadeli and
their Mostali allies enslaved all the rest. Later
Orlanth and his Storm gods freed many of
the Kachisti survivors from bondage

Guide p689

Vingkotlings: [...] Aided
by the Storm Gods, the Vingkotlings raid
and conquer many peoples far beyond their
homeland and many adopt their ways.

Guide p690

 

[M Helsdon]

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

I never said they were.  They were however liberated from their mostali slavery by Vingkotlings and afterwards took on Orlanthi customs.  

Hmm. They took on some Orlanthi customs in Time, a very long while afterwards.

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

What I said was they view the myths (of the time when they were Malkioni) as if they were Vingkotlings just as the Greeks viewed Troy.

Not quite.

The Enerali myths we do know of deviate from those of the Vingkotlings, such as the conflict between the Evil Emperor and Erulat/Orlanth not being between Yelm and Orlanth but between Seras and Orlanth, where Seras is identified with the Maker of the Dwarves or with Malkion (or perhaps even Zzabur).

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

And the evidence for the Enerali not have been Malkioni is what?  They live in the area which was taken over by Nida and later liberated by the Vingkotlings.

Their lifestyle, their culture, their gods. They show evidence of being of mixed Hsunchen/Kachasti in culture, and perhaps in .descent.

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

Try Guide map p688 which has arrows from the Vingkotlings past Top of the World and Nida on both sides...  

It's a God Learner map, and doesn't have the granularity to display the origins of every culture or group.

Yes, I am aware of the quotes, but again those don't contradict that the Enerali, Enjoreli, and perhaps the Pendali, Redeli and Bemuri were part Kachasti. 'Many' does not denote all, and Vingkot was later not important in Ralios or Fronela.

My statement had a 'might' so I am not making the mistake of attempting to apply definite 'facts' to ancient events before Time.

Edited June 21, 2020 by M Helsdon

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Hmm. They took on some Orlanthi customs in Time, a very long while afterwards.

The Enerali had some Orlanthi customs in the storm Age.  These survived the Great Darkness to become recognized by the World Council.

 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Enerali myths we do know of deviate from those of the Vingkotlings, such as the conflict between the Evil Emperor and Erulat/Orlanth not being between Yelm and Orlanth but between Seras and Orlanth, where Seras is identified with the Maker of the Dwarves or with Malkion (or perhaps even Zzabur).

What are you talking about?

Quote

In the Gods War, two powerful gods contended for the love of the Green Lady: Light-Giving Ehilm the Sun God and the Storm God Erulat whose storm clouds brought Darkness. These two gods fought a terrible war in the heavens. On earth, the sons of Eneral feuded as well: the middle sons Uton and Fornao fought for Ehilm, but Korion, the oldest son, and Vustr, the youngest son, fought for Erulat.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/safelster-in-the-first-age/

Between Ehilm and Erulat, not Seras and Erulat.  Seras is another name for Sewravus the Enchanter who lived in Aron which is in Western Ralios.  He is not identified with Zzabur by anybody nor is he identified as the Evil Emperor.

 

 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

It's a God Learner map, and doesn't have the granularity to display the origins of every culture or group.

Wow.  After originally saying the Vingkotling liberation of the enslaved Kachisti didn't exist and being disproven it by citing chapter and verse, I get the above goalpost-shifting.

 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Yes, I am aware of the quotes, but again those don't contradict that the Enerali, Enjoreli, and perhaps the Pendali, Redeli and Bemuri were part Kachasti.

Excuse me?  I am saying that the Enerali are Kachati who had been enslaved by the Mostali in the Storm Age and then liberated by Vingkotlings.  Their culture would then be Orlanthi with Malkioni roots.  What are you arguing *for* if you think I am so wrong?

 

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

'Many' does not denote all, and Vingkot was later not important in Ralios or Fronela.

So the major culture in Ralios living south of Nida, isn't Malkioni, doesn't get enslaved by the Mostali and isn't liberated by the Vingkotlings.  So who were the God Learners talking about thern?  And Vingkotlings =/= Vingkot.  Vingkot was long dead by the time any of this happened and no longer worshipped.

[M Helsdon]

47 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Enerali had some Orlanthi customs in the storm Age.  These survived the Great Darkness to become recognized by the World Council.

Such as? A few partial songs and possibly portions of the Greetings.

47 minutes ago, metcalph said:

What are you talking about?

From: Jeff 
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:07:47 -0000

> Awesome stuff, Jeff. Would be nice to see something akin to a questionnaire
> for Safelster clan creation, so can we perhaps hear a bit more about the
> area before the Dawn? Creation myths, etc.?

Well that is likely to be quite a bit in the future, unless that ends up being a project for those who attend Eternal Con. Maybe we'll do some Dawn Age Safelster experiment!

But from the material posted, you can see that the peoples of the Dari Alliance were "recognizably Orlanthi" and yet very different. And definitely unlike the materialists and Hrestoli further west.

Which reminds me. When the Dangan Confederacy embraced the Theyalan religion they divided the myths of Orlanth killing the Sun (Orlanth's contests with Ehilm over Ernalda the Green Lady) from the myth of Orlanth's feud with the Evil Emperor (who the Ralians identified with Seras the Enchanter, maker of the Mostali and also identified with Malkion the god of the Westerners).

Jeff          

47 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Wow.  After originally saying the Vingkotling liberation of the enslaved Kachisti didn't exist and being disproven it by citing chapter and verse, I get the above goalpost-shifting.

  You are not reading what I have written.

47 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Their culture would then be Orlanthi with Malkioni roots.  What are you arguing *for* if you think I am so wrong?

That, if you recall, the Enerali are part Hsunchen (based on their own mythology of Galanin) and might be part Kachasti. Given the names of their deities, which vary from those of the Theyalans, any pre-Time Vingkoting veneer is very thin.

I appreciate that you seem to object to the part Hsunchen genealogy, but the Enerali believed they were descended from his sons, and half of their tribes worshipped Ehilm and the others Erulat, which would be decidedly odd if they all had become Vingkotlings. Similarly, the revering of Galinin/Galana the Sun Horse, and apparently the ancestor of their aristocratic clans is also not Vingkotling - or Malkioni.

Note also their use of gold, the Solar metal.

It is apparent that the Enerali, and the other groups were not Vinkotlings, but a real mixture, neither pure Orlanthi nor Malkioni, whatever their ancestry, but with an addition of 'something else'.

But this is severely off topic of this thread.

Edited June 21, 2020 by M Helsdon

[metcalph]

21 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Such as? A few partial songs and possibly portions of the Greetings.

From: Jeff 
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:07:47 -0000

 

I generally stick to material in the Guide and other published works rather than nine year old emails which may or may not be true.

21 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

  You are not reading what I have written.

I have read what you have written.  What you write is confusing.  I originally stated that the Safelstrans are Malkioni and Ehilm is a Malkioni God.  You started jumping up and down on this and now are reduced to saying the Safelstrans are Kachasti/Hsunchen!

21 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

That, if you recall, the Enerali are part Hsunchen (based on their own mythology of Galanin)

I recall no such thing.  That tha Galanini are Hsunchen is an assertion on your behalf.  Insofar as the Galanini are said to be Hsunchen in King of Sartar p191, the entire scheme is labeled "Fallacious".  Pretty much everything I've seen indictaes that the Westerners calling the Galanini Hsunchen was a slur more than anything else.

21 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Given the names of their deities, which vary from those of the Theyalans, any pre-Time Vingkoting veneer is very thin.

That's like saying any Hellenistic Veneer on the Romans is very thin because their Gods have different names.  Which would be a complete surprise to the Romans who knew that Jupiter was Zeus etc.  the names of the deities are largely unimportant.  What matters is the forms of their Gods which is largely similar.

 

21 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I appreciate that you seem to object to the part Hsunchen genealogy, but the Enerali believed they were descended from his sons, and half of their tribes worshipped Ehilm and the others Erulat, which would be decidedly odd if they all had become Vingkotlings.

You have yet to prve that Eneral is a Hsunchen deity.  Secondly, you fail to appreciate the chronology.

GOLDEN AGE:  Enerali worship Ehilm and Erulat who kill each other.

STORM AGE:  Enerali are enslaved by Nida and rescued by the Vingkotlings (not as you pretend become Vingkotlings). They then adopt Orlanthi ways and view their prior history as if they were Orlanthi.

GREAT DARKNESS:  Everything gets destroyed.

DAWN AGE:  World council contacts the Galanini who recognize their Orlanthi heritage in their teachings.

21 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Similarly, the revering of Galinin/Galana the Sun Horse, and apparently the ancestor of their aristocratic clans is also not Vingkotling - or Malkioni.

It is Malkioni as it stems from the worship of Ehilm, who was a Malkioni God known to Zzabur. That it is not an orthodox Malkioni which you seem to be struggling to say may be true, but we are not talking about religious orthodoxy but continuity of populations.

21 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Note also their use of gold, the Solar metal.

The Malkioni can work Gold too, you know.  Their Noble Caste is associated with Gold (the Yellow Vadeli Guide p527, the skin colour of the Seshnegi nobles Guide p406, the Man of Gold Middle Sea Empire p8).

 

[M Helsdon]

57 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I have read what you have written.  What you write is confusing.  I originally stated that the Safelstrans are Malkioni and Ehilm is a Malkioni God.  You started jumping up and down on this and now are reduced to saying the Safelstrans are Kachasti/Hsunchen!

Um no.

If you check, you will see that what I actually originally said was: 

Whilst the Westerners adopted this name for the 'Sun God', its usage among the Enerali, the Pendali, and probably the Enjoreli, is suggestive that the Westerners adopted the name used by the natives of the mainland. For example, the Enerali knew of the conflict between Ehilm and Erulat over the hand of the Great Green Lady before the Theyalans arrived.

And I have never stated that the ' Safelstrans are Kachasti/Hsunchen!' What I actually said was:

The Enerali might have been partially descended from enslaved Malioni, but not all. 

I appreciate that you may find these suggestions run counter to your own speculations.

You may want to read up on the very significant differences between the Greek and Roman gods... They aren't as alike as you assume, and for that matter, the Greek gods varied significantly in nature and attributes even in ancient Greece from place to place. The Romans had a tendency to religious synthesis; their own gods were fairly simplistic, lacking much in the way of myths. Their gods obviously mostly followed the Indo-European template, so that Jupiter, or in his older forms Jove and earlier Dieus-pater, is related to Zeus, Ziu, Dyaus Pita, the mythology that developed later is different. 

I have never said the Safelstrans are Kachasti/Hsunchen, though they are undoubtedly among their ancestors, which probably include Westerners, Theyalans, etc. A very cosmopolitan region.

You seem to be fixated on the Enerali being Orlanthi - they shared some gods in common, but so do the Orlanthi and the Dara Happans... though that may be down to the machinations of Nysalor's priests merging different religions.

There aren't a massive number of gods in Glorantha, and many are shared by different cultures, giving different names and attributes to them. An example would be Bisos, Urox, Storm Bull, all different avatars of the same god. (Not my speculation, but stated in the Guide).

57 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Insofar as the Galanini are said to be Hsunchen in King of Sartar p191, the entire scheme is labeled "Fallacious".  Pretty much everything I've seen indictaes that the Westerners calling the Galanini Hsunchen was a slur more than anything else.

The Westerners called all the more sophisticated inhabitants of the continent (Pendali, Enerali, Enjoreli) Hsunchen.

There's evidence that there may have been a small relic Hsunchen population among some of them, probably members of the ancient elite. For that matter, in addition to the Enerali claiming Eneral as an ancestor, if you examine the article you identified you will find: 

Galanin: The Horse God and Noble Ancestor.

Galana: The Horse Goddess and Noble Ancestor. 

Now, perhaps the Enerali were wrong to claim these Horse Gods as 'Noble Ancestors', but when you add in this material from the Guide you will find:

The Galanini

The Galanini of Ralios are several scores of aristocratic horse-riding clans ruled by hereditary female chiefs. They worship Ehilm, the Sun, and Galanin, the ancestor of horses. The Galanini believe that they are kin to their mounts and some of the chieftains are believed to be able to transform into horses. They are found mainly in Galin, Estali, Helby, and Tiskos.

Edited June 22, 2020 by M Helsdon

[M Helsdon]

49 minutes ago, metcalph said:

STORM AGE:  Enerali are enslaved by Nida and rescued by the Vingkotlings (not as you pretend become Vingkotlings). 

Hmm, Revealed Mythologies must be wrong then, when the Western section claims the rescued Kachasti worshiped Worlath and became the Winkoti. Obviously they weren't the origin of all the Vingotlings, but Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes tells us many refugees were adopted by the Vingkotlings either as members of their tribes or as serfs.

It is my speculation that not all the Kachasti joined the Vingkotlings, and became part of the basis of the more sophisticated 'Hsunchen' populations. And yes, I know it's a slur, but not necessarily entirely without basis.

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

Um no.

If you check, you will see that what I actually originally said was: 

Whilst the Westerners adopted this name for the 'Sun God', its usage among the Enerali, the Pendali, and probably the Enjoreli, is suggestive that the Westerners adopted the name used by the natives of the mainland. For example, the Enerali knew of the conflict between Ehilm and Erulat over the hand of the Great Green Lady before the Theyalans arrived.

 

Which I rebutted by pointing out that Zzabur himself uses the name Ehilm by that name.

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

And I have never stated that the ' Safelstrans are Kachasti/Hsunchen!' What I actually said was:

The Enerali might have been partially descended from enslaved Malioni, but not all. 

Which effectively means the same thing as what I said you believed.

Quote

I appreciate that you may find these suggestions run counter to your own speculations.

I don't mind you for not agreeing with me.  What I do object to is your tedious insinuations that I am making things up as I go along and that there is not one shred of evidence for what I write.  And when I produce evidence to the contreary you shift the goalposts again and again, while relying on the weak reed of a nine-year old email as evidence why I can't possibly be right.

 

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

You may want to read up on the very significant differences between the Greek and Roman gods...

Wow.  So that they had very significant differences means any relationship between the two must be very weak.  It's all black and white with you, isn't it.  If the Gods of the Safelstrans have different names to the Gods of the Heortlings they must be radically different and any relationship must be very thin to the point of non-existence.

 

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

I have never said the Safelstrans are Kachasti/Hsunchen, though they are undoubtedly among their ancestors, which probably include Westerners, Theyalans, etc. A very cosmopolitan region.

You are using Safelstrans interchangeably with Enerali.

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

The Westerners called all the more sophisticated inhabitants of the continent (Pendali, Enerali, Enjoreli) Hsunchen.

And the Greeks called the lands of the people who did not speak Greek barbarians.  Your point?  Simply because the Malkioni called them Hsunchen does not automatically make them so.

.

1 minute ago, M Helsdon said:

For that matter, in addition to the Enerali claiming Eneral as an ancestor, if you example the article you identified you will find: 

Galanin: The Horse God and Noble Ancestor.

Galana: The Horse Goddess and Noble Ancestor. 

 

Just because the Enerali and the Galanini are descended from the Horse God does not make them Hsunchen.  The Grazers and other Pentans make similar claims but nobody classifies them as Hsunchen.  So I generally put that in the same pile as the Galanini cannot possibly be Malkioni because they like Gold.

[metcalph]

2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Hmm, Revealed Mythologies must be wrong then, when the Western section claims the rescued Kachasti worshiped Worlath and became the Winkoti.

The same revealed mythologies that has Zzabur referring to Ehilm (RM p4-5)?  I find that far stronger evidence thaan a glassry entry which doesn't describe who calls them the Winkoti.  If it was the Brithini, then that leds back to the slur.

2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Obviously they weren't the origin of all the Vingotlings, but Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes tells us many refugees were adopted by the Vingkotlings either as members of their tribes or as serfs.

That's talking about the people of Ernaldelans if you actually bothered to look at the source properly rather than clutch at straws.  The people of Ralios are not listed among the tribes of the Vingkotlings so aren't Vingkotlings QED.

 

[M Helsdon]

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

What I do object to is your tedious insinuations that I am making things up as I go along and that there is not one shred of evidence for what I write. 

That's what you are doing to me.

I have been phrasing my speculations as 'suggestive', 'might', and then you jump on my head claiming I have said things I have not.

I appreciate that I am speculating, and not adhering to dogma.

8 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It's all black and white with you, isn't it. 

Please don't project your behavior onto me. Myth and history occupy a grey area, in this world and Glorantha.

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

You are using Safelstrans interchangeably with Enerali.

No I am not. 

Some Safelstrans have Enerali ancestors.

12 minutes ago, metcalph said:

 

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

And the Greeks called the lands of the people who did not speak Greek barbarians.  Your point?  Simply because the Malkioni called them Hsunchen does not automatically make them so.

I know. I have said as much. But as noted, the Galanini clans of eastern Safelster still believe their chiefs can turn into horses. This suggests to me the survival of a very tiny Hsunchen bloodline, rare, but those bloodlines had to come from somewhere...

12 minutes ago, metcalph said:

 The Grazers and other Pentans make similar claims but nobody classifies them as Hsunchen.  

Do they claim they can turn into horses? It's a significant difference.

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The same revealed mythologies that has Zzabur referring to Ehilm (RM p4-5)?  I find that far stronger evidence thaan a glassry entry which doesn't describe who calls them the Winkoti.  If it was the Brithini, then that leds back to the slur.

So you ignore an entry because it doesn't support you. 

Yes, I know the Brithini refer to Ehilm, but it is impossible to tell when they started using the term. For that matter, the Brithini refer to Worlath, but the Enerali used the form Erulat.

11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

That's talking about the people of Ernaldelans if you actually bothered to look at the source properly rather than clutch at straws.  The people of Ralios are not listed among the tribes of the Vingkotlings so aren't Vingkotlings QED.

I know the people of Ralios aren't Vingkotlings! That was your claim!

As in:

On 6/21/2020 at 5:02 AM, metcalph said:

Try Guide map p688 which has arrows from the Vingkotlings past Top of the World and Nida on both sides...  Also the text:

 

 

On 6/21/2020 at 12:01 PM, metcalph said:

Excuse me?  I am saying that the Enerali are Kachati who had been enslaved by the Mostali in the Storm Age and then liberated by Vingkotlings.  Their culture would then be Orlanthi with Malkioni roots.  What are you arguing *for* if you think I am so wrong?

So in your book, the enslaved Kachasti were freed by Vingkotlings, became Orlanthi, but not Vingkotlings.

Inconvenient that then some backed the Sun God, not the Storm God, they had Sun Horses as Noble Ancestors, and some gained an apparent ability to turn into horses from somewhere.

 In my book, the enslaved Kachasti were freed by Vingkotlings, some became Vingkotlings, others became the Enerali (merging perhaps with a relict Hsunchen Horse People), others became Enjoreli perhaps, and other groups as well.

There was obviously a division of the Enerali into tribes that favored the Sun God (and had a Solar Horse God), and some that favored the Storm God (and had a Solar Horse God) which continued into the First Age. The term Orlanthi can cover a very wide range of cultures, but the Enerali were fairly distinct.

Glorantha is all the richer for apparent inconsistencies and complexity, but I appreciate that there's often a desire for solid incontrovertible 'facts', but you won't find them in terrestrial or Gloranthan mythology, unless you are a God Learner...

[kr0p0s]

On 5/24/2020 at 1:15 AM, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was thinking: maybe the mountain is a volcano to the "cold Underworld" (as opposed to Lodril's magma-y one), as it were, and that is why it's cold. This also makes it a potential route to travel to Hell.

Maybe to the spirit of Deep Airs place in the womb that bore Aether deep in the bowels of Earth. The cold dark wind that never left with Umath.

Joerg mentioned it in the Mining in Glorantha thread:

"In other myths, the birth of Storm was a hard and violent labour. Umath emerged first, pushing up his father Aether, to be followed by his sister (some say daughter) Serenha, and leaving behind an unborn third sibling, of indeterminate gender, refusing to leave the downbelow inside the womb of earth, the spirit of Deep Air, intruding into the empty womb where Aether had formed, witnessed by the Three Curious Spirits in the sidebar story in Uz Lore. "

[Voriof]

Ah, I miss Wenelia. Someday, I think I'd like to go back there. It seems a lot has changed over the years. I have a lot of traveling to do, it seems.

J Kyer

 

[Voriof]

On 5/31/2020 at 7:56 PM, Nevermet said:

I like the idea that it is Teshna & Wenelia who got switched.

 

Also, work is being a bit absurd right now, so I'm not working on Maniria as much as I want, however, I found another headache.

I have been assuming that "Ashara" is a corruption of "Issaries" (Issaries -> Ishari -> Ashara)... but what if it's a corruption of "Rashorana"? ("Rashorana" --> "Ashora" --> "Ashara")?

 

arrrrgh

FWIW, the former was what I intended when I wrote it as a little Easter egg.   Issaries headed west on his journey but Castelain headed east. But that was a long time ago and the world has changed greatly since then. And Castlain was never really a thinker. He did the things that needed to be done and hoped for the best. He was, I think, well rewarded for his trust in the world.
 

Again, FWIW, Ashara was something Greg rattled off from the top of his head and then just gave that big old grin of his and went on to the next problem with the manuscript. Wenelia and Manira were sort of the wreckage of History and Pre history. Everything was there but all broken or "the last remnants of a mighty people" tucked into some ghastly little valley.  Much like, for a terrible and violent example, much of the Balkans are today.  At the time, that area was very much on my  mind.

Sort of the whole point of Blood Over Gold was writing in a place that was relatively untouched and was a good place for people to make their own Maniria without having to worry about consulting the sages and being afraid of the continuity gods smiting one's campaign.

And, as to the Hero Wars, it was a blind spot, yes. But, with the world changing, the Trader Princes and their way of life was not "doomed" doomed but very, very threatened.  New ways were required. New paths.  "We're all doomed by year X.... unless YOU (yes, you!) stop it." I just helped push a big rock into place so as to let someone get a push.

J Kyer - just commenting on some silly thing he found tucked into the world.

P.S. And yes, I really do like reading Nevermet's take on the old place. Again, FWIW.

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Voriof
Details and mind wandering

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Voriof said:

FWIW, the former was what I intended when I wrote it as a little Easter egg.   Issaries headed west on his journey but Castelain headed east. But that was a long time ago and the world has changed greatly since then. And Castlain was never really a thinker. He did the things that needed to be done and hoped for the best. He was, I think, well rewarded for his trust in the world.

Ashara is one of my favorite of the silly things in this world, so thanks for that. Tilt the Talking God and suddenly a lot of hidden etymological insight shakes loose. I'm told there are still around 3,000 "Āsōrī" in Armenia today.

[Voriof]

On 5/20/2020 at 2:03 AM, Nick Brooke said:

My old notes about the New Coast and the Trader Princes are linked. An Esrolian folktale about the ancestors of the Wenelians is here: Esra & Entru, and you might be amused by Tim Ellis's kinda related story of The Children of Mralot. There's speculative stuff about Wenelians worshipping the Storm Bull as a Great Boar defending the Women of the Woods against outsiders in my essay The Masks of God. None of this stuff has been revised or updated for decades.

I wrote up more Wenelian notes for Jeff Kyer back in the day (featuring their proposed culture hero Wendel, God of the Lightning-Struck Oak, among others), I'll see if I can dig those out.

Notes which were eminently useful as background, I might add. You really helped me dial up the 'heck, this place is broken' vibe to where it really needed to be to be.  I really haven't looked at the modern version of Maniria/Wenelia but the point was to give plenty of social, political, and above all cultural differences to create conflict which, one hopes, the descendants of the Trader Princes might either mitigate or take advantage of.

*addition* That said, I seem to recall Nick always found them to be decadent, decaying and verging on irrelevance (that's a poor choice of words) but I found them to be dynamic and revitalized.  I think it's just the POV. Nick looked at them from outside (and perhaps through the viewpoint of feudal nobility). I looked at them from the point of being the sons and daughters of explorers, traders, and negotiators who were rising to the occasion.  Nick lives in a country full of Castles. I live in a country full of fur trading posts.  Empire of the Bay (about the Hudson Bay Company) was something that I read and referenced from time to time.  (Oh dear, I'm getting serious again and less silly...)

That said, I reread Trader Princes and it very much was a collaborative effort for which I am thankful. The ghastly writing on my part?  I can do  better now.

Regards from the forests of Maine,

J Kyer

Edited August 27, 2020 by Voriof
Engrish!

[Nevermet]

On 8/27/2020 at 5:52 AM, Voriof said:

That said, I seem to recall Nick always found them to be decadent, decaying and verging on irrelevance (that's a poor choice of words) but I found them to be dynamic and revitalized.  I think it's just the POV. Nick looked at them from outside (and perhaps through the viewpoint of feudal nobility). I looked at them from the point of being the sons and daughters of explorers, traders, and negotiators who were rising to the occasion.  Nick lives in a country full of Castles. I live in a country full of fur trading posts.  Empire of the Bay (about the Hudson Bay Company) was something that I read and referenced from time to time.  (Oh dear, I'm getting serious again and less silly...)

These really aren't that far apart.  The Trader Princes have spent 4 centuries controlling and facilitating trade and cultural diffusion across a region defined by magical disaster.  Holding up in one's castle and being dynamic enough to survive are two sides of the same coin.

[Jeff]

Maniria is not an ignored backwater, any more than Dragon Pass is. For centuries it was a "Silk Road", carrying goods and people between Ralios and the Holy Country, and being influenced by both. A network of settlements, each ruled by a "Trader Prince," facilitated this trade (and imposed tolls), and the local Orlanthi tribes were drawn to the riches and opportunities of the civilisations connected by the routes, taking on the trades of mercenaries or marauders.  This is very similar to what happened in Dragon Pass, although at a much lesser volume (and thus the Trader Princes were not unified and never had the sort of resources available to them that the House of Sartar had).

The system declined after the Opening in 1580 and the tribes could no longer be easily bought off by getting a cut from the trade, so they turned to being marauders and invaded Esrolia. 

[Voriof]

For what it is worth to anyone, Greg sent me off to Maniria way back in the day to write because he felt it was a place that was not going to be heavily touched by the upcoming trouble - certainly not to the level Dragon Pass will be.  A good, quiet place for people, especially NEW PEOPLE, to build a campaign and a world to their liking.  A place with history but it was very much a place where players might become the movers and shakers as there really wasn't much of a future script other than, say, Harrek returning and burning everything to the ground. AGAIN.

As to the Rokari and Ashara, I was not told any differently on the lists when starting out that they weren't Rokari derived. The write up on Ashara is a quote from Greg. I'll try and dig up the email... somewhere.

And yes, thank you, Jeff. The Silk Road was one of my touchstones for writing - particularly how it manifested in the Classic and Roman periods. At the time, I was working as a geo-archaeologist in Turkey and my mentor was very much into ancient trading systems. So, I did look into the effects of the Silk Road's slow decline after the advent of really good shipping and the rise of far more efficient global trading networks.  And also, of course, the trade networks set up in North America first by the French - who had a far better relationship with the Amerindians than some others - and later the Hudson Bay Company (the Empire of the Bay).  I tried to have the hand of Castelain lie lightly on the region but they were good merchants and provided something the locals did need: some sort of neutral party.

Still, I'd love to tuck Taprobane (Sri Lanka) and the annual monsoon trading fleets from Arabia and China into the mix somewhere but couldn't really figure out how.

Still in a forest by the Sea but without coffee.

- V

[Nevermet]

4 hours ago, Voriof said:

Still in a forest by the Sea but without coffee.

 

This is an injustice that must be corrected