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[SPOILER] Crossbows in The Hunt


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1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Bears are pretty wimpy compared to a knight. Skill 13, 3d6 damage, twice.

Without your armor and your shield, that is +5d6 as far as average damage is concerned. So 8d6, twice, comparatively. That is risky, that is dangerous, and a much bigger threat than a Skill 5 (10-5 for fight mounted) 4d6 footman is to an armored knight. Currently, they are both worth the same, 10 Glory. We can go to HP calculation, SIZ and all that, and even if you are allowing Lance charges in the depths of the forest, the Bear is still a greater threat than a footman under the same circumstances.

Now, if we are saying that yeah, if you are wearing your armor and lance-charging the bear, maybe it isn't as glorious as fighting it in your hunting leathers with a spear on foot, sure, I would agree with that also. Halve the Glory or some such. But if you are with the Chase, your peers watching you as you get off your horse and approach the Bear at bay, and engage it with your hunting spear fearlessly and kill it, surely that is a feat worth celebrating? 10 Glory is 'nah, not worth the risk'. Boar is even worse, since it gives all its damage in one blow. 'Boarhunting' became an euphemism to get rid of characters' stat points via major wounds in our earlier campaign.

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@Morien I agree totally. X5 is about what I do. That way if you go on a hunt and a whole chase and you kill a bear at least everyone gets 12 Glory out of it. And if you do it by yourself, it should be worth more than a wimpy peasant. Which it isn't currently. At that point, then I'd consider reducing the cost for killing a bear with a bow.

@Atgxtg Bears are wimpy. This has always struck me as odd considering boars and bulls are these brutal mankillers. Which, considering everything, isn't that unusual, but at least a bear should be able to hurt somebody. They're like glorified wolves. Which, actually, in my opinion are more dangerous because they usually are in multiples. Bears are barely more dangerous than a hart.

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You want to make the bear truly dangerous? Get rid of the maul, which is a debuff, and instead give the bear a damage that matches its size and strength (25+25, which would be 8d6 with sword). Even just combining the two 3d6 damage rolls into a single 6d6 damage roll would make the bear much more terrifying, and actually a threat to an armored man.

Edited by Morien
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I find the 3d6 damage is low even with only the heavy garments as protection. I do like the Mail, but with a 13 skill, and such low damage, the bear is relatively lackluster. I think a better Bear would be 18 skill (same as Boar, or Bull Trample) then a Maul with 4d6 (1/2 of the real damage). That would be lower damage overall and help make a Bear one of the more intimidating natural beasts, which it is apparently supposed to be considering it has no modifier to Valorous. In addition, I go back and forth between giving the horseback bonus against the bear. What do you all do? I'm kind of inclined to say no horseback bonus since it's so large, but it has no weapon, so there probably should be a horseback bonus because of that and being only size 25. However, RAW the Bear would only have an 8 combat skill that way.

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On 6/2/2020 at 5:38 PM, Username said:

 

@Atgxtg Bears are wimpy. This has always struck me as odd considering boars and bulls are these brutal mankillers. Which, considering everything, isn't that unusual, but at least a bear should be able to hurt somebody. They're like glorified wolves. Which, actually, in my opinion are more dangerous because they usually are in multiples. Bears are barely more dangerous than a hart.

That's because, like most animals, they aren't all that tough compared to a skilled warrior or hunter. 

 

23 hours ago, Morien said:

You want to make the bear truly dangerous? Get rid of the maul, which is a debuff, and instead give the bear a damage that matches its size and strength (25+25, which would be 8d6 with sword). Even just combining the two 3d6 damage rolls into a single 6d6 damage roll would make the bear much more terrifying, and actually a threat to an armored man.

Yes, and it really kicks up the chance of it inflicting a major wound on an unarmored one. At 3d6 the bear would only do about 6 points (twice) through armor. Nothing to sneeze at, but not all that impressive compared to a boar, large deer, or even a big Saxon, all of which will probably inflict a major wound with a single hit, against someone in hunting leathers.

 

It's the 3d6, twice, damage that puts bears in the lower threat ratings. At 3d6, it is hard pressed to even knock a knight down now. I think bears, like a lot of stuff from KAP 1, fell behind in the stat escalation of KAP 3/4 and 5. In KAP1, where the average knight was SIZ 10-11 the bear wound tend to force at least one DEX roll if it one. Maybe up the maul damage to 4d6? 

 

 

Edited by Atgxtg

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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17 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

think bears, like a lot of stuff from KAP 1, fell behind in the stat escalation of KAP 3/4 and 5. In KAP1, where the average knight was SIZ 10-11 the bear wound tend to force at least one DEX roll if it one. Maybe up the maul damage to 4d6? 

Didnt they decrease damage for many animals in KAP5? In Lordly Domains, the one with the appendix of different animals and sizes, most of them were significantly more dangerous than they are now especially the auroch.

Anyways, I'm not too concerned if a bear should be a danger to a knight in armor. Honestly, a boar is probably a little too dangerous if you're wearing armor. You shouldn't be in danger fighting a bear in armor. But, it should be dangerous to face a bear in hunting leathers and with a spear. Currently though, even a 21yr rookie hunter with a 15 Spear has little reason to be afraid of a bear. Assuming a 14 SIZ, a 15 Horse skill, there's almost no concern, barring a critical, that you'll be knocked of your horse. Further, a greater skill and higher damage at a time means the knight, in his hunting clothes, will likely still out do the bear in damage. In reality though, I would say that kind of skill matchup should heavily favor the bear. That's why you'd have 2-3 men with you. Going 1v1 with a Bear should be an accomplishment for a veteran hunter, like going against a Boar is. Currently though, less intimidating than a Red Deer. Which, I guess I know of a Deer killing an emperor and can't think of a Bear doing the same, so maybe it's accurate?

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5 hours ago, Username said:

Didnt they decrease damage for many animals in KAP5? In Lordly Domains, the one with the appendix of different animals and sizes, most of them were significantly more dangerous than they are now especially the auroch.

No, I believe it was a case of people other than Greg having a lot of input into LD. I believe that Greg wasn't entirey in charge of Pendragon at that time, and recall reading something about a supplement he wasn't happy with. 

5 hours ago, Username said:

Anyways, I'm not too concerned if a bear should be a danger to a knight in armor. Honestly, a boar is probably a little too dangerous if you're wearing armor. You shouldn't be in danger fighting a bear in armor.

Sure you should. Bears can get a lot of muscle behind thier swings. But a skilled combatant would be a lot less danger.

5 hours ago, Username said:

But, it should be dangerous to face a bear in hunting leathers and with a spear. Currently though, even a 21yr rookie hunter with a 15 Spear has little reason to be afraid of a bear.

Yes, but keep in mind that that 21 year old isn't exactly a rookie. He's spend the lat seven years training to be a knight and learning how to fight. THere are reasons why knights were so powerful. They were professional warriors in a socitey that couldn't afford many professional warriors. 

5 hours ago, Username said:

 

 

Assuming a 14 SIZ, a 15 Horse skill, there's almost no concern, barring a critical, that you'll be knocked of your horse. Further, a greater skill and higher damage at a time means the knight, in his hunting clothes, will likely still out do the bear in damage. In reality though, I would say that kind of skill matchup should heavily favor the bear. That's why you'd have 2-3 men with you. Going 1v1 with a Bear should be an accomplishment for a veteran hunter, like going against a Boar is. Currently though, less intimidating than a Red Deer. Which, I guess I know of a Deer killing an emperor and can't think of a Bear doing the same, so maybe it's accurate?

Yes. That's actually one of my concerns about the more recent editions. Player characters start off much better than they used to, and most of the PKs I see quickly get thier main weapons and Horsemanship of to 20, making them practically unseatable.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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