Should Tusk Riders suck at magic?

[GAZZA]

My personal theory that the whole "INT -> CHA" conversion for spirit magic has missed a few tricks. According to the Gloranthan Bestiary, Tusk Riders have a pathetic 1d6 CHA, which gives them a 7 species maximum, and therefore complete inability to learn more than 7 points of Spirit Magic (or Rune Points, for any one deity).

Can this really be right? Borderlands and Beyond, for example, has Tusk Riders with plenty of spirit magic that would need to be removed significantly lowering their threat level, and honestly that would mean there's no such thing as a Tusk Rider Rune Priest (yes, the Bloody Tusk doesn't have any, but not all Tusk Riders follow that cult, just most of them).

Given the importance of CHA in RQG I would suggest they get 3d6 CHA like most other sentient species; yes, this does mean that they will have better communication skills than otherwise, but I don't really see that as a particular problem.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

My personal theory that the whole "INT -> CHA" conversion for spirit magic has missed a few tricks. According to the Gloranthan Bestiary, Tusk Riders have a pathetic 1d6 CHA, which gives them a 7 species maximum, and therefore complete inability to learn more than 7 points of Spirit Magic (or Rune Points, for any one deity).

Why do you think the Tusk Riders like Death Binding (RuneQuest Bestairy p70) so much?  (Admittedly the rules are unclear whether the chance for the spirit magics is based on the Tusk Rider's or the Victim's charisma).

 

[GAZZA]

27 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Why do you think the Tusk Riders like Death Binding (RuneQuest Bestairy p70) so much?  (Admittedly the rules are unclear whether the chance for the spirit magics is based on the Tusk Rider's or the Victim's charisma).

I mean, I'm unaware of any official write up of the Cult of the Bloody Tusk that predates RQG. So possibly that is a new spell designed to cover their weakness. However, Tusk Riders didn't have inferior INT in previous editions, so it is at least possible that this is a significant depowering that was unintended. It certainly looks like their RQ3 APP score (1d6) was simply ported over as CHA without any further thought.

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

I mean, I'm unaware of any official write up of the Cult of the Bloody Tusk that predates RQG.

Elder Secrets.

3 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

However, Tusk Riders didn't have inferior INT in previous editions, so it is at least possible that this is a significant depowering that was unintended. It certainly looks like their RQ3 APP score (1d6) was simply ported over as CHA without any further thought.

Given that Tusk Rider Rune Lords do not have a CHA requirement whereas most other cults do, I daresay the writers at Chaosium are aware of the change and have no problem with it.

[GAZZA]

7 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Elder Secrets.

Given that Tusk Rider Rune Lords do not have a CHA requirement whereas most other cults do, I daresay the writers at Chaosium are aware of the change and have no problem with it.

Thanks for the tip, so Death Binding is not new and (from what I can see in Elder Secrets) is basically unchanged for RQG.

And why do you say that Tusk Rider Rune Lords don't have a CHA requirement? According to RQG pp280 all Rune Lords have a 18+ CHA requirement. Granted many of them repeat this requirement in the cult description, but it does seem quite a leap that we're supposed to realise Bloody Task is an exception implicitly. For example Babeester Gor doesn't mention such a requirement as well, but I wouldn't have assumed that was an exception - merely that it is assumed since pp280 says it's a general requirement for Rune Lords, that it is not necessary to repeat it for each cult.

So at the very least, an RQ3 Tusk Rider could throw around spirit magic and Rune magic pretty much identically to a human, and he might well have Death Binding for moar power. His RQG equivalent needs Death Binding to have any reasonable hope of competing at all, and no Tusk Rider can be a Rune Lord of the Bloody Tusk (or actually of any cult) unless you're right that the omission of the CHA requirement should be taken as an exception (which means that Babs just got even more power gamer friendly ).

All due respect, I think I'm going with the idea that they should have 3d6 CHA in RQG, and that this was a mistake, at least IMG.

Edited May 23, 2020 by GAZZA

[metcalph]

Just now, GAZZA said:

Thanks for the tip, so Death Binding is not new and (from what I can see in Elder Secrets) is basically unchanged for RQG.

And why do you say that Tusk Rider Rune Lords don't have a CHA requirement? According to RQG pp280 all Rune Lords have a 18+ CHA requirement.

This has come up before and the word has been that there is no CHA requirement for a rune lord of the Bloody Tusk.

 

[GAZZA]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

This has come up before and the word has been that there is no CHA requirement for a rune lord of the Bloody Tusk.

Well (shrug) it's not in Rune Fixes. That strikes me very much as a "oops, we screwed up, uhh... yeah, that's right, no CHA requirement for that cult! Phew!" moment to me; and honestly I would have thought "oops, I guess Tusk Riders should have 3d6 CHA" is a better correction. I mean, it's abundantly clear that the whole INT -> CHA thing resulted in errors (for example, if you get an awakened small animal in character creation it has 3d6 INT/3d6 POW but no CHA, and yet somehow knows 3 points of spirit magic; my query about that was that, indeed, the animal should get 3d6 CHA too; of course, that isn't in Rune Fixes either). I don't really see this as anything more than an additional example of Chaosium forgetting that just because you had low (or no) APP in RQ3 doesn't mean you should have low (or no) CHA in RQG. That's an easy enough mistake to make, it's a big book, and there's a lot of copy/paste stuff that could easily have slipped through the net.

Still, to each their own; if you prefer that Tusk Riders suddenly forgot a bunch of magic when the world changed from RQ3 to RQG, then that's fine too - and I doubt Tusk Riders are an important enough elder race that it really matters to a lot of GMs anyway.

Edited May 23, 2020 by GAZZA

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Well (shrug) it's not in Rune Fixes. That strikes me very much as a "oops, we screwed up, uhh... yeah, that's right, no CHA requirement for that cult! Phew!" moment to me; and honestly I would have thought "oops, I guess Tusk Riders should have 3d6 CHA" is a better correction. I mean, it's abundantly clear that the whole INT -> CHA thing resulted in errors (for example, if you get an awakened small animal in character creation it has 3d6 INT/3d6 POW but no CHA, and yet somehow knows 3 points of spirit magic; my query about that was that, indeed, the animal should get 3d6 CHA too; of course, that isn't in Rune Fixes either). I don't really see this as anything more than an additional example of Chaosium forgetting that just because you had low (or no) APP in RQ3 doesn't mean you should have low (or no) CHA in RQG. That's an easy enough mistake to make, it's a big book, and there's a lot of copy/paste stuff that could easily have slipped through the net.

Still, to each their own; if you prefer that Tusk Riders suddenly forgot a bunch of magic when the world changed from RQ3 to RQG, then that's fine too - and I doubt Tusk Riders are an important enough elder race that it really matters to a lot of GMs anyway.

It is deliberate and not a mistake.

[metcalph]

Just now, GAZZA said:

Well (shrug) it's not in Rune Fixes. That strikes me very much as a "oops, we screwed up, uhh... yeah, that's right, no CHA requirement for that cult! Phew!" moment to me;

I'm not wasting further time enabling your insinuations.  

 

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Well (shrug) it's not in Rune Fixes.

Rune Fixes only deals with very specific rules issues, Rune Lord requirements are answered here - Rune Lord (page 278) section.

Rune Lords page 278: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-13-rune-cults/

 

[GAZZA]

Cheers, I wasn't aware of that.

[Akhôrahil]

11 hours ago, metcalph said:

Given that Tusk Rider Rune Lords do not have a CHA requirement whereas most other cults do, I daresay the writers at Chaosium are aware of the change and have no problem with it.

If they have a Cha of 1, there won’t be much Rune Magic coming from them...

Edit: The solution would be having a decent allied spirit.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Ian Absentia]

So, this is one of those instances where we find, on one hand, there's the world as it really is, then on the other, the mechanics intended to model that world.  It's a situation not unique to this particular game, and is seen in every edition of RuneQuest.  Do you let the world as intended guide play and create exceptions to the general rules?  Or do you let the rules dictate the manifestation of the world to create a divergent Truth?

There will always be square pegs paired with round holes.

!i!

[Akhôrahil]

At some point, you have to wonder why being sociable and having high magical potential is governed by the same stat. Is there any reason why Tusk Riders would be bad at magic, have low spirit combat damage, and so on? 1D6 for App makes every kind of sense, but for Cha, less so.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Richard S.]

Charisma isn't just sociability, it's also a character's force of personality and "presence", the ability to get people to pay attention and listen to you. That perfectly ties into spirit magic imo, which is based on the character exerting their will on the spirits around them.

"CHA is the measure of leadership and strength of personality.
This is the ability to say “Follow me!” and find oneself leading
a charge." RQG pg. 52

Edited May 23, 2020 by Richard S.

[Brootse]

10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

At some point, you have to wonder why being sociable and having high magical potential is governed by the same stat. Is there any reason why Tusk Riders would be bad at magic, have low spirit combat damage, and so on? 1D6 for App makes every kind of sense, but for Cha, less so.

Yeah, even Broos and Great trolls get CHA 2d6.

e: and Trollkins too.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Brootse

[Akhôrahil]

24 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Charisma isn't just sociability, it's also a character's force of personality and "presence", the ability to get people to pay attention and listen to you. That perfectly ties into spirit magic imo, which is based on the character exerting their will on the spirits around them.

"CHA is the measure of leadership and strength of personality.
This is the ability to say “Follow me!” and find oneself leading
a charge." RQG pg. 52

And Tusk Riders are weaker than Trollkin in this regard?

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

Charisma isn't just sociability, it's also a character's force of personality and "presence", the ability to get people to pay attention and listen to you. That perfectly ties into spirit magic imo, which is based on the character exerting their will on the spirits around them.

"CHA is the measure of leadership and strength of personality.
This is the ability to say “Follow me!” and find oneself leading
a charge." RQG pg. 52

Thank you for this Richard, something was bothering me and my doddering age forced it down in my subconscious. unable to brought to the surface... well said! Well said! Force of personality and its its strange effect on the mundane and spirit world would be the reason that Charisma plays a role in the .adventurers interaction with the spirit world. We have explored Charisma in the mundane world, in the fora—extensively!  Mayhap’s it is time to explore Charisma in the other realms.

Cheers

[Bill the barbarian]

Fer wot it’s worth... my  barbarian side wonders wot's wrong with the tusker personality... ;)

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

If they have a Cha of 1, there won’t be much Rune Magic coming from them...

I'll bite: Why? 

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I'll bite: Why? 

Because Rune Points are capped by Cha (per cult, but I imagine the Bloody Tusk doesn’t have too many friendly cults...).

Edited May 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Brootse]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Because Rune Points are capped by Cha (per cult, but I imagine the Bloody Tusk doesn’t have too many friendly cults...).

Looks like that even the writers don't follow the this rule for the Tusk Riders. Xiobalg and Durag from the Apple Lane scenario both have more Rune Points than CHA.

[jongjom]

47 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Looks like that even the writers don't follow the this rule for the Tusk Riders. Xiobalg and Durag from the Apple Lane scenario both have more Rune Points than CHA.

Tribal Edit for the GM pack is closed, otherwise it would be good to have these typo corrections listed there. 

[Brootse]

2 minutes ago, jongjom said:

Tribal Edit for the GM pack is closed, otherwise it would be good to have these typo corrections listed there. 

My guess is that someone else also found it. Would you have a link to the thread?

[jongjom]

2 minutes ago, Brootse said:

My guess is that someone else also found it. Would you have a link to the thread?

...was the last tribal edit thread, AFAIK

 

...was the first tribal edit thread

As far as I can see these typos managed to get through both in-house and tribal edits, until now!