How much STR and DEX do you need to use a long spear one-handed?

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Thaz said:

Personally I think this is 'over thinking' at its highest. Spear Long (1H) is Lance. I think the issue for me is the description of Lance is wrong (IMG) as it's too long. It's just a big spear. We're not playing Pendragon and practical combat lances were just that.  Drop the Lance to 3m or less and it all works out. Use it one handed and you loose a chunk of base skill as it's unwieldy (base skill is 5 rather than 15). So typically used 2 Handed on foot. Which is how I've always used and fought against larger spears/pole weapons. 

I'll skip over the stirrup argument but note with the appropriate saddle you don't need stirrups to use a lance one handed.

Practical Combat Lances were not that big outside of Jousting. 

 

Completely agree.

I also like your pic of the 1st Polish Chevau-Leger. Where do you took it from? Osprey?

Edited May 28, 2020 by Kloster
typing mistake

[Thaz]

4 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Completely agree.

I also like your pic of the 1st Polish Chevau-Leger. Where do you took it from? Osprey?

Yup. 🙂 

 

[Akhôrahil]

15 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

I like this, because I've sometimes mused that it doesn't matter so much how strong your mount is in a charge if: a) you're not strong enough to hold onto your lance upon making contact; and/or b) you're not strong enough to hang onto your mount.

!i!

Agree. Glorantha doesn’t have the tech for a full-blown lance charge - that requires stirrups and a high-backed military saddle. Allowing half of the steed’s damage bonus might be a compromise. Also, just a Mounted bonus as In Pendragon goes a long way.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Darius West]

There is a strange supposition in the rules, which is that lances in Glorantha are routinely couched for a charge, in the fashion of knights and lancers.  In fact, this plumments us back into the ugly territory of "the stirrup question".  Is it even possible to stay mounted if you couch a lance while having no stirrups?  I have long felt that this is something that the RQ rules completely needed to address but didn't, if only to just end the discussion.  The fact is, however, that cataphracts didn't have stirrups, and didn't couch their lances, but instead had pike length spears that they used in a 2 handed grip, over their heads.  You are gonna need some STRONG thighs.

 

[Thaz]

46 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There is a strange supposition in the rules, which is that lances in Glorantha are routinely couched for a charge, in the fashion of knights and lancers.  In fact, this plumments us back into the ugly territory of "the stirrup question". 

Except it doesn't. 1 handed lance use before stirrups just requires the appropriate saddle. 

[Ian Absentia]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Glorantha doesn’t have the tech for...

Beware.  Here we are, poised on the brink of this rabbit hole.  There's a persistent assumption that the development of technology follows a fixed evolutionary path as demonstrated by our own world.  T'ain't necessarily so.

!i!

[Thaz]

5 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

There's a persistent assumption that the development of technology follows a fixed evolutionary path as demonstrated by our own world.  T'ain't necessarily so.

Exactly. There is nothing particularly sacred about the the 'Tech Tree' as developed in Europe or China. There is no reason at all why the Gods could not have handed Pentians Stirrups for  example. There is nothing especially Iron age about them. Bronze makes perfectly good horseshoes, stirrups and indeed canon for example. There are bronze razors out there that still hold a great edge. We just dont know how they were made...

 

[Darius West]

Just now, Thaz said:

Exactly. There is nothing particularly sacred about the the 'Tech Tree' as developed in Europe or China. There is no reason at all why the Gods could not have handed Pentians Stirrups for  example. There is nothing especially Iron age about them. Bronze makes perfectly good horseshoes, stirrups and indeed canon for example. There are bronze razors out there that still hold a great edge. We just don't know how they were made...

I also agree.  My only stake in the matter is that I sincerely wish the rules covered what is actually going on with regards to saddle tech.  As you say, there are indeed a number of ways of solving the "saddle" question, and indeed, you don't always need stirrups if you have solved the problem with the right saddle.  The fact is, the saddle that we regard as standard today has little resemblance to medieval saddles, because it is really a stockman's saddle, for example.

[Brootse]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Glorantha doesn’t have the tech for a full-blown lance charge - that requires stirrups and a high-backed military saddle.

It does not require stirrups. That was invented by a guy in the 60s, and it has been debunked many times since.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Thaz said:

Except it doesn't. 1 handed lance use before stirrups just requires the appropriate saddle. 

There's a big difference between using a spear one-handed to stab from horseback, and delivering a fully powered charge with couched lance. It's the latter that requires a lot of support.

[Brootse]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

There's a big difference between using a spear one-handed to stab from horseback, and delivering a fully powered charge with couched lance. It's the latter that requires a lot of support.

And that support comes from the saddle. Stirrups aren't needed for cavalry charges.

[Akhôrahil]

19 minutes ago, Brootse said:

It does not require stirrups. That was invented by a guy in the 60s, and it has been debunked many times since.

And the saddle, of a type that no-one in Glorantha uses? And honestly, in most of Glorantha, the horses themselves are kinda unimpressive - certainly no medieval chargers. 

[Brootse]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

And the saddle, of a type that no-one in Glorantha uses? And honestly, in most of Glorantha, the horses themselves are kinda unimpressive - certainly no medieval chargers. 

Heavy cavalry charges with lances were done centuries before stirrups, and over 1000 years before the medieval chargers. And the medieval chargers weren't particularly large horses either. RQG's rules overstate the importance of massive beasts for lance charges.

[Akhôrahil]

21 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Heavy cavalry charges with lances were done centuries before stirrups, and over 1000 years before the medieval chargers. And the medieval chargers weren't particularly large horses either. RQG's rules overstate the importance of massive beasts for lance charges.

Once again, note the difference between just any charge - you can charge people while wielding a saber, because you get some decent shock effect anyway - and specifically the couched lance charge, which is what would supposedly use the steed's damage bonus.

The weird thing about mounted combat in RQ is that you get no bonus from just being on horseback in a fight (barring mounted archery, which is excellent), or from a charge outside of the lance effect. Once again, Pendragon does this a lot better.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Brootse]

48 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Once again, note the difference between just any charge - you can charge people while wielding a saber, because you get some decent shock effect anyway - and specifically the couched lance charge, which is what would supposedly use the steed's damage bonus.

The weird thing about mounted combat in RQ is that you get no bonus from just being on horseback in a fight (barring mounted archery, which is excellent), or from a charge outside of the lance effect. Once again, Pendragon does this a lot better.

Some guy wrote a book in the 60s that had the premise that stirrups were some kind of super invention, that made the mounted warriors the new ruling class. That is 100% incorrect. Lance charges and mounted warrior ruling classes existed centuries before stirrups. Unfortunately the stirrup thing became a part of pop history and slithered from there into rpg and strategy game rules. So, once again: stirrups aren't needed for lance charges.

[Thaz]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

And the saddle, of a type that no-one in Glorantha uses? And honestly, in most of Glorantha, the horses themselves are kinda unimpressive - certainly no medieval chargers. 

This is incorrect, on many levels. 

You don't need much of a saddle really. A basic one is fine. You don't need stirrups. 

Also there hasn't been any discussion or description of saddles in RQG AFAIK. 

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

5 minutes ago, Thaz said:

You don't need much of a saddle really. A basic one is fine. You don't need stirrups.

For a couched lance charge? Source on this? A high-backed saddle is widely considered a prerequisite.

[Thaz]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

For a couched lance charge? Source on this? A high-backed saddle is widely considered a prerequisite.

I've done it myself with a regular saddle. Smashed targets etc. Yes I had stirrups but I i wasn't especially using them... Ie not standing up into the blow or anything. Tbh I'd be okay doing it bareback without stirrups. It's more general battlefield mobility saddle and stirrups are good for. 

Napoleon era cav used regular saddles even lancers. 

There are a lot of myths regarding lance use in combat. 

((for background I once commanded a mixed arms medieval reenactment group that included cav. We did a lot of trials prepping for joust displays etc )) 

 

[Akhôrahil]

18 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I've done it myself with a regular saddle. Smashed targets etc.

At the kind of power and into the kind of resistance to be expected on a battlefield? Absolutely full charge on a destrier-size horse and slamming the lance into fairly unyielding targets, like armoured people (perhaps the shield first) or horses? I have certainly never seen reenactors come anywhere close to that level of violence. Which is probably for the best - it’s unlikely it can be done safely!

Edited May 28, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Thaz]

12 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

At the kind of power and into the kind of resistance to be expected on a battlefield? Absolutely full charge on a destrier-size horse and slamming the lance into fairly unyielding targets, like armoured people or horses? I have certainly never seen reenactors come anywhere close to that level of violence. Which is probably for the best!

Shire Horse, me in full plate (and heavy duty plate at that) vs a weighed strawbale wearing an old breast plate. Really wasn't that big an impact. 

Now I totaly wouldn't want to be jumping hedges and so on but that's more riding in armour than lance use. 

And we're not talking about that in RQG are we? Where they well have either saddles appropriate or striupps. 

Img they have stirrups. Yes it's not earth bronze age tech but is glorantha where mounted troops are a huge thing. So someone invented stirrups early. No bigge. 

 

Greatswords. Now we're talking... 

[Akhôrahil]

37 minutes ago, Thaz said:

 

Img they have stirrups. Yes it's not earth bronze age tech but is glorantha where mounted troops are a huge thing. So someone invented stirrups early. No bigge. 

I think some have stirrups - High Llamas probably have them just for mounting purposes! I don’t think western cataphracts have them (but those horned saddles are pretty good instead).

[Brootse]

1 hour ago, Thaz said:

I've done it myself with a regular saddle. Smashed targets etc. Yes I had stirrups but I i wasn't especially using them... Ie not standing up into the blow or anything. Tbh I'd be okay doing it bareback without stirrups. It's more general battlefield mobility saddle and stirrups are good for. 

Napoleon era cav used regular saddles even lancers. 

There are a lot of myths regarding lance use in combat. 

((for background I once commanded a mixed arms medieval reenactment group that included cav. We did a lot of trials prepping for joust displays etc )) 

 

And Napoleonic lancers were light cavalry. Sword using Cuirassiers had larger horses, but that was because the Cuirassiers were larger men, and therefore needed larger horses to carry them around. Lance charges don't require large horses, unless the warriors using the lances are heavy or are carrying heavy equipment.

[Brootse]

12 hours ago, soltakss said:

And barrels

 

Guide to Glorantha p. 674-675:

II-13. Alfostios
The Cooper. He carries a saw, with a barrel beside him.

 

[Ian Absentia]

Warning: Animals were definitely harmed in the production of this photograph.  But note the saddle, the length of the lance, and the one-handed use.  Stirrups are a given.

This is, of course, not the only way to use a lance.

!i!

[Brootse]

The Guide or the RQG book don't mention stirrups, but both the new and the old art sometimes depict them.