About APP

[Questbird]

8 hours ago, hix said:

This is not a terrible idea, actually. Come to think of it, I can't recall ANY rpg system that had a method for determining aggro. I guess Shadowrun has "geek the mage", but I can't think of an actual mechanical system in any book that I've read. Maybe a wargame?

I just thought of it for this thread but I'm going to start using that one. 😆

[Chaot]

On 6/2/2020 at 1:17 AM, Atgxtg said:

Except that ib BRP there is no benefit to Charisma either. 

The x5% score is useful but I agree in general. It's pretty easy to make specific situations where Charisma could be useful, like magic systems or a special Swashbucking skill where damage bonus is determined with Dex+Cha, but tying it into mundane use is tough.

With brings me back to that x5% roll. I lean on that to give Charisma importance. If you really wanted to, you could allow a successful x5% roll to bump up a interpersonal skill roll result by one stop, so a failure becomes a success or a success becomes a critical.

 

Edit: You can't do that with Appearance though. Makes no sense. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by Chaot

[Lloyd Dupont]

I like the persuasion skills lead to resistance roll on cha vs int

Plus I always a bit uneasy on the concept that hey, since the player succesfully roll his convince skill the target should be convinced, right?

Edited June 3, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[Chaot]

I think of it more as a spectrum. If a PC is trying to convince a guard to let them through the door and succeed on their convincing roll, the guard isn't necessarily going to let them in, she has a job to do. It will prevent her from becoming actively hostile towards the PCs for trying to get past her. She's likely to talk to them, telling them no instead of just calling for an extra guard to confront them.

[el_octogono]

In real life, charisma is a super useful stat. A high charisma can make you pass under the police inspection radar. May get you a new job. Might make harder for another person to say No to some request. Someone with low charisma is usually ignored, both in presence and speech, even if he is saying something interesting. 

I've made this characteristic roll for a BRP homebrew:

 

First Impression Roll = CHA x5

This roll is made every time a character faces another for the first time. A Critical Success means social skills require one less success level. A success means the character is received in a good way. Failure means the character is not taken into account and all social skills require one higher success level. Fumble means the character is frowned upon and taken as hostile, treacherous or any other appropriate interpretation.

Edited June 3, 2020 by el_octogono

[g33k]

22 hours ago, hix said:

This is not a terrible idea, actually. Come to think of it, I can't recall ANY rpg system that had a method for determining aggro. I guess Shadowrun has "geek the mage", but I can't think of an actual mechanical system in any book that I've read. Maybe a wargame?

I think it's kind of antithetical to RPGs.   Who/when/how/etc to attack -- tactics & strategy overall -- is really the prerogative of the players; it shouldn't be represented in the rules.

As a GM, I tend to randomize things... except that high-INT foes will make the best tactico/strategic calls they can, based on what they can see of the PCs' threats (typically, a similar sort of threat-assessment the PC's do upon entering combat with NPCs/monsters).

[hix]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

antithetical to RPGs

I was actually using a video game term for deciding who the NPCs attack, not determining player action.As a GM, I would welcome this, though I would only use it when it felt right.

[g33k]

3 hours ago, hix said:

... deciding who the NPCs attack, not determining player action.  As a GM, I would welcome this, though I would only use it when it felt right.

Errr... I guess?

1st pass -- Each NPC attacks the closest foe, or the weakest foe, or possibly by other criteria, depending (e.g. predators try to pick off a weaklings (young, old, sick, injured, etc); "champion" types and those with "something to prove" might attack the toughest foe; etc).

2nd pass -- If no single target is obviously "closest" or "weakest" or any other criteria as a "best" target -- roll/randomize among "the best available" targets.

3rd pass -- If all the targets are more or less equally appealing, roll randomly among all.

Is that the sort of thing you meant?

[hix]

Something like that. I guess we already make those decisions on the fly, and I often enjoy making some enemies use pack tactics while others ambush or use combined arms. I suppose having something like that for specific adversaries would be more interesting than a set of if/then statements.

[Atgxtg]

8 hours ago, Chaot said:

The x5% score is useful but I agree in general. It's pretty easy to make specific situations where Charisma could be useful, like magic systems or a special Swashbucking skill where damage bonus is determined with Dex+Cha, but tying it into mundane use is tough.

Yup. I could sort of see linking it to whatever scrimpt immunity mechanic used in the system. Typically the heroes of stories tend to be very Charismatic, so getting (extra) Hero Points equal to CHA would work.

8 hours ago, Chaot said:

With brings me back to that x5% roll. I lean on that to give Charisma importance. If you really wanted to, you could allow a successful x5% roll to bump up a interpersonal skill roll result by one stop, so a failure becomes a success or a success becomes a critical.

Yes, althouth that would mean two rolls. Or maybe. if we added another degree of success or two onto the ladder (ala CoC 7th) we could use one roll against both the skill and Charisma with a success under both being worth a bump up.

 

8 hours ago, Chaot said:

Edit: You can't do that with Appearance though. Makes no sense. 

It does for some things, but not for others. I thin it really coes down to APP not really being worth assigning a characteristic to it. 

[Atgxtg]

On 6/2/2020 at 3:35 PM, Kloster said:

Yes very true. But this rule is consistent from RQ2 to RQG. As far as I remember, it is not present in any other BRP game.

Is it? I thought RQG gave a bonus based on INT like in RQ2.

On 6/2/2020 at 3:35 PM, Kloster said:

What makes RQ3 special on the matter is that every point of any STAT did matter, instead of having  increments in a table (RQ1, RQ2, RQG).

That originated in Strombringer, although in SB the bonuses only kicked in for stats over 12 or below 9. 

[Lloyd Dupont]

RQ3 was like that, the category bonus was the XP roll bonus, if my memory serves me right.. (it's like 34 years later... 😮 )

[Mugen]

7 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

RQ3 was like that, the category bonus was the XP roll bonus, if my memory serves me right.. (it's like 34 years later... 😮 )

it also puts a limit on skills if it's negative.

If your "bonus" is -X, you can't go higher than 100-X.

If your bonus is +1 (or 0 ? I don't remember) or more, there's no limit to your skill.

[Kloster]

8 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

RQ3 was like that, the category bonus was the XP roll bonus, if my memory serves me right.. (it's like 34 years later... 😮 )

You remember well.

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

it also puts a limit on skills if it's negative.

If your "bonus" is -X, you can't go higher than 100-X.

If your bonus is +1 (or 0 ? I don't remember) or more, there's no limit to your skill.

It was 0, because you need a roll of 1D100+mod of 100 or more to increase. Same in RQG.

[olskool]

On 6/3/2020 at 10:27 AM, el_octogono said:

In real life, charisma is a super useful stat. A high charisma can make you pass under the police inspection radar. May get you a new job. Might make harder for another person to say No to some request. Someone with low charisma is usually ignored, both in presence and speech, even if he is saying something interesting. 

I've made this characteristic roll for a BRP homebrew:

 

First Impression Roll = CHA x5

This roll is made every time a character faces another for the first time. A Critical Success means social skills require one less success level. A success means the character is received in a good way. Failure means the character is not taken into account and all social skills require one higher success level. Fumble means the character is frowned upon and taken as hostile, treacherous or any other appropriate interpretation.

Consider this stolen!  I can see how this initial test will "influence" any Persuasion Rolls the PCs must make later on.   On a successful roll, NO MODIFICATIONS to Persuasion would be made.  For my "outstanding success roll"  (1/10th of the success chance ru), the PCs will gain a one shift Difficulty bonus (ie a Difficult test becomes Average).   IF the PCs roll a Critical Success (Doubles under the chance of success with 00 being zero, zero), they gain two levels of Difficulty Shift (ie Average tasks become Easy tests).  Likewise, a failure means they suffer a negative level of Difficulty Shift (ie Average rolls become Difficult ones) and a Fumble (doubles over the success chance) would result in two Difficulty Shifts (ie an Average task would become a Formidable one).       

[olskool]

On 6/3/2020 at 9:12 AM, Chaot said:

The x5% score is useful but I agree in general. It's pretty easy to make specific situations where Charisma could be useful, like magic systems or a special Swashbucking skill where damage bonus is determined with Dex+Cha, but tying it into mundane use is tough.

With brings me back to that x5% roll. I lean on that to give Charisma importance. If you really wanted to, you could allow a successful x5% roll to bump up a interpersonal skill roll result by one stop, so a failure becomes a success or a success becomes a critical.

 

Edit: You can't do that with Appearance though. Makes no sense. 

I base my Persuasion skill's base modifiers on CHA, WILL, and INT.   I changed APP to CHA like I stated in my post above.  Then I added WILLPOWER in place of POW and made POW a "derived attribute" BASED on that WILLPOWER score.  This way, my PCs (and NPCs) can sacrifice POW WITHOUT changing all their skill bonuses in my modded RuneQuest.      

[Lloyd Dupont]

I am reading Magic World diagonally, not sure my understanding is correct... But once again Magic World will inspire me!

I like their simplified skill category modifier, and plan to also use it as the bonus to experience roll. Instead of INT/2 for all skill as in the BRP.
APP/2 is the communication skill modifier and will be the experience roll bonus. Hence APP will have an impact. Even though, arguably, between 18 and 10 that is +5 to +9 modifier, not that big a deal.. although.. twice as much chance to succeed over 100%.....

Also, I am using XP instead of skill mark. And I was wondering if you always gain +1 when you spend a XP.. but this diminish the impact of skill bonus for skill over 100%, if I don't allow that, high APP become all the more critical! 😮 

I am thinking about it become some transhumanist augmentation (doing my setting) do not much more than boosting APP (and vaguely helping for disguise) so I try to make sure they are good value for money!

And also trying to come up with a simplified skill list and character creation procedure (BRP, noob friendly edition!)

Edited June 11, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[Atgxtg]

On 6/3/2020 at 10:27 AM, el_octogono said:

In real life, charisma is a super useful stat. A high charisma can make you pass under the police inspection radar. May get you a new job. Might make harder for another person to say No to some request. Someone with low charisma is usually ignored, both in presence and speech, even if he is saying something interesting. 

I've made this characteristic roll for a BRP homebrew:

 

First Impression Roll = CHA x5

This roll is made every time a character faces another for the first time. A Critical Success means social skills require one less success level. A success means the character is received in a good way. Failure means the character is not taken into account and all social skills require one higher success level. Fumble means the character is frowned upon and taken as hostile, treacherous or any other appropriate interpretation.

That's pretty much the reaction roll from the James Bond RPG. A game where Charisma was so useful as to be a skill (based off of willPOWer).

[Al.]

On 6/3/2020 at 11:12 PM, Atgxtg said:

Is it? I thought RQG gave a bonus based on INT like in RQ2.

That originated in Strombringer, although in SB the bonuses only kicked in for stats over 12 or below 9. 

Yup. Not surprising since that was the way that it worked in T&T as well. Since it fits with my (incomplete) understanding of probability curves and distribution I've always liked that model.

During lockdown I've been reading the various RPGs that mates have lent me over the years and which have just sat on my shelf gathering dust. I really like the bonus chart (for want of a better term) in the D&T Cyclopedia and will look to use that, unfortunately in d100 rulesets the many non-human races have characteristics which fall outside of the 3-18 range.

 

[Atgxtg]

7 hours ago, Al. said:

unfortunately in d100 rulesets the many non-human races have characteristics which fall outside of the 3-18 range.

 

You could use anydice to get the bell curve for the other die ranges, and then compare that to a 3d6 bell curve. 

[Al.]

5 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

You could use any dice to get the bell curve for the other die ranges, and then compare that to a 3d6 bell curve. 

Like all great insights; that's obvious now that you've said it! Ta.

[Atgxtg]

On 6/12/2020 at 4:50 PM, Al. said:

Like all great insights; that's obvious now that you've said it! Ta.

Thanks for the praise, but I think it's only obvious to those who bother with/think in terms of "crunch". As I often have to adapt and convert adventures from one RPG into whatever game I'm actually running (often a BRP based or related game), I end up doing that kinda thing on a regular basis. 

[Al.]

On 6/1/2020 at 4:08 PM, Lloyd Dupont said:

What do you think? any other idea?

I guess this boils down to, do you want to add new rules or make use of existing ones?

Using existing rules:

Call for lots of Charisma (App x5) rolls when meeting new people

And adjust any subsequent rolls against Social Skills according to how well (or not) the Charisma roll went

(Inspired by the PenDragon Inspiration rules: a Critical raises the skill's level of success by 2 steps, a success raises by 1 step, a failure reduces by 1 step, a fumble reduces by 2 steps)

 

 

Possible new rules:

• Don't roll for CHA/APP; this (inspired by listening to the Iliad a few years ago) is calculated as the average (mean) of the rolled characteristics. Special, competent characters have greater Charisma than dullards
  • The RQ3 recommended penalty of -10 for observers from another species is then applied (Tusk Riders of course get -10 from their own species as they hate themselves too)
• Starting characters begin with as many points of AP (armour) as they have points of APP. So that the handsome, fashionable warrior has handsome, fashionable armour whilst the scruffy. moth-eaten thug has scruffy, moth-eaten armour.
• One which could apply for all characteristics and characteristic rolls.
  • When using a Social skill roll against said skill and Charisma (APP x5%) roll on a single d100.
  • Succeeding at one of these is a partial success. Succeeding at both is a Full Success.
  • So long as the roll is a success for the lower score then Specials and Criticals come from the higher score

i.e. Charming (APP 17) but crude (Art (Courtly Manners) 25%) Osman is called upon to blend in during a reception at the King's Court. If his player rolls:

• below '17' then he has Critically Succeeded - nobody even notices his presence, he snags some fancy food and overhears a clue
• between '17' and '25' then he has Fully Succeeded - he is in no way out of place
• between '25' and '85' only Partially succeeded - he makes a few booboos but charms his way out of it
• over '85' failed completely - forgetting to bow to nobles gets him noticed in all the wrong ways 
• '99' or '00' - calling the King 'mate' is going to cause some problems imminently

[Atgxtg]

 

On 6/11/2020 at 10:40 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

I like their simplified skill category modifier, and plan to also use it as the bonus to experience roll.

And also trying to come up with a simplified skill list and character creation procedure (BRP, noob friendly edition!)

 

I was working on a BRP variant awhile ago that did something along these lines. THe relevant points are:

• I eliminated base skill percentages, and instead each skill started at the base category percentage. This was something like two or three Characteristics added together. For example the Knowledge Category started at INTx2%. or INTx3% Melee was something like DEXx2+STR.
• The skill categories covered every skill. For instance, if a character picked up a sword for the first time, he would default to whatever his melee base percentage was. 
• Hard Skills used half the base, and Easy skills twice the base. Stuff that cannot be done untrained, such as speaking a language that a character was never exposed to before or performing neurosurgery, would just ber at 0% as with the current rules.
• Skill checks and training improved individual skills (like driving, sword, read Latin, or first aid).
• Characters could add 1/10% the base skill category to improvement rolls. So Someone with a base of 30% with knowledge rolls and add 3%.

The idea was that we only had to track a half dozen skill categories, rather than dozens of indivual skills, most of which aren't going to be improved much anyway. Not every character becomes a gem-smith or a pilot,. Also, no one is going to be rolling a skill at 10-20% unless they have to, so all we really need for those skills is a default score. Once a character puts work into a skill, then we bothered to track it. 

[Atgxtg]

20 hours ago, Al. said:

I guess this boils down to, do you want to add new rules or make use of existing ones?

Yup. 

Some suggestions based from the Bond RPG, which uses Charisma and Appearance quite a bit.

1) Give reaction rolls (Charisma rolls) to see how NPCs react to the characters. I suggest adjusting this by how the players treat the NPC. If they are nice then the roll gets a bonus, if they are rude the roll gets a penalty. The use the reaction to apply modifiers to future interaction (for example a desk clerk who thinks that a PC is a "nice guy" might be more willing to help the PC find a new car, find them a better room and so forth, while a desk clerk who thinks that a PC is a jerk might not do as much for the PC as he could.).

2) Apply a modifier to Seduction rolls (and may other rolls) based on the characters APP score. A character with APP 18 is probably going to have a much easier time finding a date than one with APP 6.