Shamans Teaching Spirit Magic

[mikuel]

When a shaman is teaching a character a spirit magic spell, can he do something else?  Or is he/she committed to working with that character all week, 6 to 8 hours a day?  

If your clan only has one shaman with the teach spirit magic spell, and it takes a week, I'm assuming that they can only teach one spell at a time.  Or can a shaman work with 3 or 4 characters at the same time during that week teaching each a different spell?  

My players will have some 7 or so weeks of down time and will want to learn some spells from their shaman and cult leaders.  

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, mikuel said:

When a shaman is teaching a character a spirit magic spell, can he do something else?  Or is he/she committed to working with that character all week, 6 to 8 hours a day?

yes. page 253

Quote

learning a new spell takes one week of work. Nothing else in the way of learning may be done during this week.

Unless it's offered on a cult holy day (also page 253)

4 hours ago, mikuel said:

If your clan only has one shaman with the teach spirit magic spell, and it takes a week, I'm assuming that they can only teach one spell at a time.

Yes. However it's not a teach spirit magic spell. Teaching spirit magic is an ability all shaman have in RQG.

4 hours ago, mikuel said:

Or can a shaman work with 3 or 4 characters at the same time during that week teaching each a different spell?

I would allow that if all were learning the same spell, different students could be learning different levels of the same variable spell. eg Heal 1 and heal 3

I'd probably limit the number of students to the shaman's CHA. So a shaman with a CHA of 18 could teach 18 students at once. It would be a week long ritual with everyone participating and the shaman's assistants assisting. With a healing training, the shaman would likely do it during an auspicious time, Harmony week for Healing spells, Death week for Bladesharp etc. 

4 hours ago, mikuel said:

My players will have some 7 or so weeks of down time and will want to learn some spells from their shaman and cult leaders.  

Page 357 says 

Quote

 

Learning Spirit Magic

A shaman may learn any spirit magic spell desired (unless a specific spell is forbidden to the shaman for other reasons, such as a cult restriction or taboo) and without cost. The shaman merely goes to the Spirit World to speak with the relevant spirit, and then makes a focus for the spell. A shaman can do this once per day.

 

So the ritual would be shaman going to the spirit world, to a well know spirit vortex and bringing back a relevant spirit to the student (an alternative is the shaman takes the students spirit to the relevant spirit. The student would mediate on the spirit and learn the spell. Then make a focus themselves or with the help or the shaman, they then spend time attuning themselves to the focus so they can cast the spell. Finally getting to practice using it with their focus. Lots of singing, dancing and drumming, along with ritual practice as well. 

 

[Shiningbrow]

Is there reason for the price increase merely "because I can"?

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Is there reason for the price increase merely "because I can"?

What price increase?

[Kloster]

I presume, 'of spell teaching'.

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

I presume, 'of spell teaching'.

Increase from what?

[Shiningbrow]

On 6/3/2020 at 10:32 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Increase from what?

It takes the same amount of time and effort to get a spirit (or by other means) to teach X1 as X6.

 

So, why does X1 cost 50L, but X6 cost 300L (plus intervening points with subsequent price increase)?

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

It takes the same amount of time and effort to get a spirit (or by other means) to teach X1 as X6.

It takes up 6x the amount of spirit spell capacity to know and therefore teach the spell. Scarcity carries a price premium, so yes I guess it is just "because they can".

[Shiningbrow]

57 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It takes up 6x the amount of spirit spell capacity to know and therefore teach the spell. Scarcity carries a price premium, so yes I guess it is just "because they can".

??? I'm pretty sure the shaman tracks down the spirit, fights it, and forces it to teach the spell to the intended recipient... So, no scarcity involved. Also, I'd hazard a guess that the same X6 bearing spirit is probably the same one to call upon for all of X1-X5 as well...

If it's a priest (GL, RL) teaching the spell, since it will be a cult spell, they'd have that spell in mind anyway... Sure, some amount of supply and demand (not every Humakti will know Bladesharp 6), but I'd imagine every Humakti Rune level (the ones required to teach as part of the job) will have Bladesharp 3, so that supply and demand / scarcity argument fails, as does the spell capacity. Again, teaching X1 is effectively the same as teaching X6... 

[Brootse]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

??? I'm pretty sure the shaman tracks down the spirit, fights it, and forces it to teach the spell to the intended recipient... So, no scarcity involved. Also, I'd hazard a guess that the same X6 bearing spirit is probably the same one to call upon for all of X1-X5 as well...

If it's a priest (GL, RL) teaching the spell, since it will be a cult spell, they'd have that spell in mind anyway... Sure, some amount of supply and demand (not every Humakti will know Bladesharp 6), but I'd imagine every Humakti Rune level (the ones required to teach as part of the job) will have Bladesharp 3, so that supply and demand / scarcity argument fails, as does the spell capacity. Again, teaching X1 is effectively the same as teaching X6... 

Yeah, I've not understood the logic of it either. The only reason I can think of is game balance.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

??? I'm pretty sure the shaman tracks down the spirit, fights it, and forces it to teach the spell to the intended recipient

The actual mechanics of spell teaching are glossed over in the rules as it is not normally important to play them out, it's an out of game event that takes a week. Basically the spirit magic spell is a spirit that gets integrated into the student. There's no fighting or forcing as only friendly or Neutral spirits can be used safely. It's the relationship of shaman to the spirit world that ensures this is a safe processor for the student. Rune Magic cults work the same way, but friendly spirits are delivered to the rune level and they aid in the integration of the spirit with the student. Bigger spells require more work. The more time spent in the spirit world or in ritual. You are paying for the degree of work. Like I said, there is a reason this is glossed over. It's not the stuff of adventures.

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

??? I'm pretty sure the shaman tracks down the spirit, fights it, and forces it to teach the spell to the intended recipient... So, no scarcity involved. Also, I'd hazard a guess that the same X6 bearing spirit is probably the same one to call upon for all of X1-X5 as well...

Other than the scarcity of the spirit, or the greater risk involved in tracking down a bigger spirit.

[Lordabdul]

6 hours ago, David Scott said:

Basically the spirit magic spell is a spirit that gets integrated into the student.

Woah what? You get a particular spirit jacked into your body? (like a non-sentient allied spirit?)  I thought Spirit Magic was calling upon the surrounding Spirit World's "energies" to cast the spell... (I pictured it as the Spirit World basically having a "base sediment layer" of neutral spirits who have given up or lost their will and personalities, and can be manipulated in fairly predictable ways)

I guess this solves the problem of casting spells in a place devoid of any spirits -- doesn't matter because you have one in your arm.

[GAZZA]

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Other than the scarcity of the spirit, or the greater risk involved in tracking down a bigger spirit.

Certainly in RQ3 those were both valid points; a Bladesharp 6 Spell Spirit would have a higher POW than a Bladesharp 1, and it could well mean that it took longer to find. However, RQG doesn't require the shaman to discorporate and find a spell spirit at all - just to take a week out of her time and teach (possibly to multiple students).

And honestly "finding and subduing a spell spirit" as far as I'm concerned is "the stuff of adventures" (to quote @David Scott above), so the fact that the spell teaching process has now been abstracted, to me, suggested that finding and subduing a spell spirit is no longer part of the process ("backed up" by the lack of such a spirit in the bestiary, though of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).

I'm sorely tempted IMG to just keep RQ3 style spirits, including spell spirits, as I honestly think they were a fun part of the game rather than the bestiary default that essentially just makes all bound spirits the same. But in RQG, it does indeed seem that the only reason Bladesharp 6 costs more is because the shaman (or priestess) can charge more for it - there is no mechanics to support any greater scarcity or risk. (Which of course raises the question, in a world where Bladesharp 6 could cost as much as Bladesharp 1, why anyone would ever bother learning Bladesharp 1 - but most RPG economics have their weak point).

Of course you can accept that the spell teaching process is "uninteresting" and just hand wave it; the fact that there's no mechanics for spell teaching doesn't mean that behind the scenes the same tracking down/subduing process isn't taking place - it just means that it's not considered important/interesting enough to play through. (And that's obviously a very subjective statement).

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, GAZZA said:

And honestly "finding and subduing a spell spirit" as far as I'm concerned is "the stuff of adventures"...

Most players I have come across would riot if I made every spell-learning opportunity into an adventure.

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Woah what? You get a particular spirit jacked into your body? (like a non-sentient allied spirit?)  I thought Spirit Magic was calling upon the surrounding Spirit World's "energies" to cast the spell... (I pictured it as the Spirit World basically having a "base sediment layer" of neutral spirits who have given up or lost their will and personalities, and can be manipulated in fairly predictable ways)

I guess this solves the problem of casting spells in a place devoid of any spirits -- doesn't matter because you have one in your arm.

I saw it in previous version like any possession :

the spell spirit possess you, then the "teacher" shaman ask it to leave you, but you are now changed and can use the spell.

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Woah what? You get a particular spirit jacked into your body? (like a non-sentient allied spirit?) 

Yes. In real world shamanism it's believed that we have attached to us a plethora of what would be called minor intrusions. Most are considered benign, some are nasty and cause sickness. In RQG the natural extension is that you can have friendly ones you can use for magic. 

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

doesn't matter because you have one in your arm.

They are not anywhere in particular as they are merged into your spirit body.

[Shiningbrow]

20 hours ago, David Scott said:

The actual mechanics of spell teaching are glossed over in the rules as it is not normally important to play them out, it's an out of game event that takes a week. Basically the spirit magic spell is a spirit that gets integrated into the student. There's no fighting or forcing as only friendly or Neutral spirits can be used safely. It's the relationship of shaman to the spirit world that ensures this is a safe processor for the student. Rune Magic cults work the same way, but friendly spirits are delivered to the rune level and they aid in the integration of the spirit with the student. Bigger spells require more work. The more time spent in the spirit world or in ritual. You are paying for the degree of work. Like I said, there is a reason this is glossed over. It's not the stuff of adventures.

Ok... So now the spirit doesn't actually "teach" the spell, and each and every individual instance of the spell is unique?

If so, sure, that explains the difference in fees. But, it's a *HUGE* change, and has other consequences.

Could that spirit be unmerged? What's the deal with forgetting a spell?

Or upgrading? The above implies one spirit per point of spell... 

[David Scott]

8 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Ok... So now the spirit doesn't actually "teach" the spell, and each and every individual instance of the spell is unique?

Yes. As unique as a mindless spirit is.

8 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

If so, sure, that explains the difference in fees. But, it's a *HUGE* change, and has other consequences.

Nothing changes. The process is just more detailed. It has no effect on the game. The rules still work the same.

3 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Could that spirit be unmerged? What's the deal with forgetting a spell?

An adventurer holds on them by their strength of personality (CHA), you can only hold on to so much. Forgetting them is a simple release. The rules are the same.

3 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Or upgrading? The above implies one spirit per point of spell... 

One spirit per spell. Upgrading - you get a bigger spirit, replacing the smaller one. The rules are the same.

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 minutes ago, David Scott said:

One spirit per spell. Upgrading - you get a bigger spirit, replacing the smaller one. The rules are the same.

I fully agree and would just add that, of course the bigger spirit is able to use a part of its power. The bladesharp 6 spirit is able to sharp your blade at 1 ,2 ,3 or 6 depending your magic points you channel to it

[Thaz]

The RQG mentions that anyone defeating a spirit in spirit combat may force it to teach you any of its spirit magic spells. I really don't think you are capturing or owning that sprit. That would involve spirit binding and a binding enchantment which are a different deal entirely. 

 

 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Thaz said:

The RQG mentions that anyone defeating a spirit in spirit combat may force it to teach you any of its spirit magic spells. I really don't think you are capturing or owning that sprit. That would involve spirit binding and a binding enchantment which are a different deal entirely.

I suppose that is closer to copying its magic onto your spirit body, transforming part of it into its simile.

Spirit binding applies to the material world, and something outside of yourself.

In the HQ parlance, Spirit Magic is something you have. David's description of the Spirit Body being involved sounds like it comes closer to something you are (the Theist magic), but the copy model of mine may be closer to something you have.

What you don't have/get is the spell spirit's POW or MP regeneration. Just the ability to turn magic points into spell effect.

[Thaz]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I suppose that is closer to copying its magic onto your spirit body, transforming part of it into its simile.

<snip>

What you don't have/get is the spell spirit's POW or MP regeneration. Just the ability to turn magic points into spell effect.

What you gain is _knowledge_ of its secrets. Which you can later choose to forget (expicitly mentioned in the rules you can forget spirit magic to free up CHA for others). So yes it teaches you it's version of the spell. It's really that simple I think.  It also fits mythically as when ZZ stole Yelmalio's fire etc. 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Thaz said:

The RQG mentions that anyone defeating a spirit in spirit combat may force it to teach you any of its spirit magic spells. I really don't think you are capturing or owning that sprit. That would involve spirit binding and a binding enchantment which are a different deal entirely.

In this case you've wrested the spell part out of the spirit. In real world shamanism, spirits can be broken up into smaller parts. For example, many cultures believe that our spirit body is made up of different spirit parts. Parts can be taken or lost. Again this doesn't affect the rules.

The only extra complication here, present in the rules, is that you don't have a focus...

[David Scott]

12 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What you don't have/get is the spell spirit's POW or MP regeneration. Just the ability to turn magic points into spell effect.

Exactly. The spirit gets to be in the Middle World - this why spirits are happy to do this. You can pump magic points into it via the focus, and it produces a magical effect.