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Shamans Teaching Spirit Magic


mikuel

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1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Although, I was meaning that now the main spirit loses the spell, so can't be re-summoned to teach the same spell to a different person, as previous editions.

Conflicting truths can both be correct. It also makes me think, what is the meaning of "learning the name of a spirit" so that it can be re-summoned? Are names, in this context, even specific to one individual spirit as we might think of it? If spirits lose their individuality as they devolve, what used to be one powerful entity may have become hundreds of spell-spirit-fragments that can all be accessed via one "name".

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1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Although, I was meaning that now the main spirit loses the spell, so can't be re-summoned to teach the same spell to a different person, as previous editions.

yes

In RQ3, Magic book page 16

Quote

This task is usually overseen by a benevolent shaman who has, under his command, low magic point spell spirits from whom the student can easily learn.

RQ3 Rune Magic spell teaching summoned a cult spell teaching spirit (Magic Book page 36)

Yes the spirits were reusable. This however never explained what a spirit magic spell was, and if anything made almost the definition of sorcery - something you know We come quite a long way since RQ3 in 1984. HQG (2015) introduced spirit magic (charms) are something you have, as that was the area I worked on, it makes sense to update what we know of the spirit world using recent developments.

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Another thing that bothers me is that saying too much about what's going on behind-the-curtain is very God-Learnerey, it's not how most Gloranthans approach the world. Shamans may have a great deal of consistency in what they do and what they see, likewise priests, but may disagree vehemently on what is actually happening. Is it one spirit that returns to the source to regenerate? One of a collection, devolved from the same entity? Is the same entity being summoned from outside of time, where the order of events has no meaning? Should I rap my student's head for claiming to be able to understand the mystery?

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1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Another thing that bothers me is that saying too much about what's going on behind-the-curtain is very God-Learnerey, it's not how most Gloranthans approach the world.

Yes, good point... but shamans would still know what they're doing... they would know if they can capture a spirit and suck it dry, implanting its spell bits into a dozen students, or if they would have to capture twelve different spirits for the class. They would know if they need to release it and wait a bit before recapturing it. And so on... The why of this may be an ongoing debate within the shamanic circles, or maybe it's well understood. I don't see a problem with shamans having a good understanding of the Spirit World, vs shamans having different schools of thought and arguments about why spirits and magic behave the way they do.... it's all narrative opportunities for me either way.

The other important thing to me is that the mechanics reflect the world as best as possible (within gameplay and usability limits). If "learning" a spirit magic spell from a spirit means it "removes" the spell from that spirit, then it's reasonable to think that there should be some rule where you can't "pass the spirit around" like a joint to give that spell to everybody in the party. And again, when players ask why the rules are restricting it, you can, if you want, hand wave it: "shamans are pretty secretive about this...", or "there are different schools of thought on the topic...". Hey, even the rulebook itself might be vague about it.... but it's still important. Like I said, Scotty's explanations have been helpful to me: it makes a LOT more sense to me why the rules are what they are regarding spell limits and forgetting spells ("how can you instantly forget anything?!" was my initial reaction to the rules). I actually really think the whole vocabulary around "learning" and "forgetting" spells is a mistake, and it should explicitly talk about "integrating spell spirits" and "taking them out" or something. Especially since, it seems (based on what Scotty said), that's actually how shamans see it in-world anyway.

Edited by lordabdul

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

...it makes a LOT more sense to me why the rules are what they are regarding spell limits and forgetting spells ("how can you instantly forget anything?!" was my initial reaction to the rules)...

I expect that learning magic would require some pretty extreme (to us) mental gymnastics. There's a piece in Magician where the protagonist has to learn to not think about the thing that he has just been told to not think about. "DON'T THINK ABOUT A MONKEY!" What are you thinking about? I bet it's a monkey.

You also have to learn to both love and hate cognitive dissonance.

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@David Scott in particular...

Re: Heroquests and the garnering of spell knowledge. If there's going to be 3 levels or types of Heroquest (as has been floated around, and is in a Jonstown issue), which of the 3 would be required to learn a spirit magic spell, and which for sorcery? (I'm presuming 2nd level for Rune Spell, and 3rd for awesome power and unique spells/gifts).

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19 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

@David Scott in particular...

Re: Heroquests and the garnering of spell knowledge. If there's going to be 3 levels or types of Heroquest (as has been floated around, and is in a Jonstown issue), which of the 3 would be required to learn a spirit magic spell, and which for sorcery? (I'm presuming 2nd level for Rune Spell, and 3rd for awesome power and unique spells/gifts).

I don't know what the three levels you are referring to are, do you mean the three types:

  • This world
  • Heroplanes (normal)
  • Otherworld

or 

  • The "in-world" or practice runs
  • The Magic Road types
  • The Other Side adventures.

or another categorisation?

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2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

@David Scott in particular...

Re: Heroquests and the garnering of spell knowledge. If there's going to be 3 levels or types of Heroquest (as has been floated around, and is in a Jonstown issue), which of the 3 would be required to learn a spirit magic spell, and which for sorcery? (I'm presuming 2nd level for Rune Spell, and 3rd for awesome power and unique spells/gifts).

If you wanted to learn a Spirit Magic spell, you could do a HeroQuest ritual, which is effectively a ritualised This World HeroQuest. What this would entail is to re-enact the "Gaining of the Spell" HeroQuest. So, a Humakti learning Bladesharp would do a different HeroQuest than an Orlanthi learning Bladesharp or a Babeester Gori learning Bladesharp,l but the process would be the same.

If you wanted to gain a new Spirit Magic spell for your cult, you might do a HeroQuest to take that spell and make it available to your cult. I see that as possibly being a raid on another cult centre or a reenactment of the Gaining of the Spell on the God Plane. Once you do that, you then create a new Myth of "My cult gets this spell" and anyone can perform that HeroQuest again as a ritual, as above.

If you wanted to create a brand new Spirit Magic Spell, you would need to perform a God Time heroQuest to do so. now, this might just be a ritual HeroQuest, but it would mean getting the Spell from somewhere, or shaping something into a Spirit Magic spell. Once you have done this, you have your "Gaining of the Spirit Spell" HeroQuest that others could then do.

All being well, this and many other things about HeroQuesting, will appear in the Jonstown Compendium.

 

 

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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21 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

@David Scott in particular...

Re: Heroquests and the garnering of spell knowledge. If there's going to be 3 levels or types of Heroquest (as has been floated around, and is in a Jonstown issue), which of the 3 would be required to learn a spirit magic spell

Assuming the spirit magic is a boon from the heroquest, (as opposed to having the spirit delivered) there are two approaches. For gods as @soltakss said there would be the myth of how each individual god received the spell. It could be as simple as handling death (Humakt) for bladesharp, or hearing Chalana Arroy singing for heal. I think that ultimately the source of these spells is the rune itself. So these would be listing the Heroplane.

For shaman, it would count as an otherworld heroquest (as the spirit world is considered otherworld). The shaman would need to travel out and out to reach the larger encompassing domains (page 372, 374). Here in the realm of Earthmaker at the edge of the Primal Plasma are the runes themselves.

Alternately, it could be a hunt for a unique spirit through the spirit world, but not as far out as Earthmaker.

21 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

and which for sorcery? (I'm presuming 2nd level for Rune Spell, and 3rd for awesome power and unique spells/gifts).

Sorcery is the easiest as it can cover all three.

Simple variations can be done in world, accessing advanced rune techniques could be done in the heroplane in the presence of the gods or in the otherworlds. Observing the source is important.

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On 6/12/2020 at 4:33 AM, Shiningbrow said:

But simply asked - This World or Heroplane?

To learn a spell from a Temple - This World.

To steal a spell from another Temple for yourself - This World.

To steal a spell from another Temple and make it available to your followers - Heroplane.

To make a new spell - Heroplane.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

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