Lunar's preventing the worship of Orlanth

[Ian A. Thomson]

Trying to refresh my memory about the exact period that Orlanth and Ernalda worship was suppressed/illegal in Pavis/Prax?

Can someone please summarise for me. Much appreciated

Also, was it vigorously enforced? I know I've read details somewhere but cant recall where

Thanks

[Ormi Phengaria]

As I've been interpreting it, they never really did. The Great God Orlanth is too big for something like that to have any meaningful impact, at least without the culmination of many years of intense magical effort, such as with the Temple of the Moon Victorious. But Orlanth Rex, a very specific subcult with a very small membership? That could be done. After all, it's just a means for the barbarians to elevate themselves into the ranks of civilization, and the Empire can provide them something much better. What could the mythic consequences possibly be? Heheh.

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, Ian Thomson said:

Trying to refresh my memory about the exact period that Orlanth and Ernalda worship was suppressed/illegal in Pavis/Prax?

Can someone please summarise for me. Much appreciated

Also, was it vigorously enforced? I know I've read details somewhere but cant recall where

Thanks

Sor-eel the Short kept the Orlanth temple open in New Pavis, but installed a priest who was widely considered to be Illuminated. Although the cult was suppressed by the invaders, the political clout of Orlanth's priests allowed some of them to remain in the city despite the repression. 

When Sor-eel was removed in 1621 (some say through the influence of Tatius the Bright), he was replaced by Halcyon var Enkorth, who had served with success as a Lunar legate to the barbarian king of Elkoi (and who had ties to the powerful Assiday family of Raibanth). From 1621 to 1624, Governor Halcyon was more aggressive in his suppression of the Orlanth cult in Pavis, and made active use of Gim Gim the Grim and the Moon Masks to suppress the cult. However, in 1624, Argrath and his nomad army defeated the Lunars and seized the city, at which point Orlanth Rex became the ruling cult (in contrast with Pavis which remained the city god).

[Ian A. Thomson]

So from 1621-24 Orlanth was more aggressively suppressed, and prior to that (apart from the probable banning of O Rex, it was just looked down on and maginalised

What would such aggressive suppression look like?

Legal banning? No Orlanth worshippers allowed in New Pavis? Making all Rune Levels outlaws? (except the specially licensed)

Am I not right in recalling that unlicensed Rune Priests were being crucified? Something like that?

[Jeff]

42 minutes ago, Ian Thomson said:

So from 1621-24 Orlanth was more aggressively suppressed, and prior to that (apart from the probable banning of O Rex, it was just looked down on and maginalised

What would such aggressive suppression look like?

Legal banning? No Orlanth worshippers allowed in New Pavis? Making all Rune Levels outlaws? (except the specially licensed)

Am I not right in recalling that unlicensed Rune Priests were being crucified? Something like that?

Aggressive suppression would include:
1. Closing the temples known to the Lunar authorities that are near New Pavis. That would be the major temple in New Pavis, the minor temple at Garhound, and a few other shrines and minor temples. The minor temple in the Rubble might get raided, but the Rubble is too dangerous to waste soldiers in garrisoning a temple location.

2. Exiling/outlawing known priests and Rune Lords. Just forbid them from entering New Pavis, the Rubble, etc. Identifying them is a job for Gim Gim.

3. Harassing prominent initiates. That's a job for Gim Gim and the Moon Masks.

4. Watching associated cults like Ernalda, Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, and Chalana Arroy for covert associated worship.

[Nick Brooke]

On 3/20/2022 at 8:11 PM, Ian Thomson said:

Trying to refresh my memory about the exact period that Orlanth and Ernalda worship was suppressed/illegal in Pavis/Prax?

Can someone please summarise for me. Much appreciated

Also, was it vigorously enforced? I know I've read details somewhere but cant recall where

Although it's about suppressing Orlanth-worship in Sartar (rather than Pavis County), you might find the short article on pages 40f. of my first Gloranthan Manifesto relevant or interesting: Orlanth Worship & Lunar Occupation.

The Lunars never intentionally suppressed Ernalda worship; when that goddess died after what went down in Whitewall, it was completely unexpected. The Lunars love the Earth Goddess; she's how Hon-eel got into Tarsh, after all.

[Jeff]

There is often an assumption because a group has heroquesters or is at least known to have had heroquesters, they will use heroquesting to solve all sorts of "problems" like the Thunder God being associated closely with the Earth Goddess.

Of course this is rarely the case, even in groups with many active heroquesters, such as the Lunar Empire or Argrath's Sartar. First of all, most of these problems are largely academic or abstract compared to the actual threats that face the group. Hon-eel's biggest quests were: 1. getting a new very productive crop to help feed the post-Sheng Seleris Heartlands, and 2. proving that the she (and by extension the Red Goddess) is the lover of Yelm and thus closer to the Sun God than the Pure Horse People. Her third big quest - to prove that she is associated with Ernalda in order to gain the support of the Provincial Orlanthi ultimately failed (but conventional Lunar military assets proved enough to cement her dynasty in Tarsh, although not without many reversals and set-backs).

And those threats were all immediate and tangible problems, and her quests were not about "re-writing the past" but about finding out something new that does not invalidate what was known before, but does result in a reinterpretation based on the new discoveries. Yes the Pure Horse People and their Queen were close to Yelm, but Hon-eel is even closer - she is Dendara to Yelm. Sure the Horse Queen continues to speak for Yelm, but needs to be wary around the Lunars because they too can speak for Yelm.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Yes the Pure Horse People and their Queen were close to Yelm, but Hon-eel is even closer - she is Dendara to Yelm.

The PHP don't agree with Pelorian narratives, so does this matter? Also, when did Hon-Eel prove she was Dendara?

Both are genuine questions.

[Nick Brooke]

10 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The PHP don't agree with Pelorian narratives, so does this matter? Also, when did Hon-Eel prove she was Dendara?

The major published source is the Fifth Wane History, collected in the Glorantha Sourcebook. The Pure Horse People of Pent originated in Peloria, of course.

And it does matter, because in Glorantha the outcomes of myth and heroquesting are real, not subjective - the Most Reverend Mother of Horses (in Pent, not Dragon Pass) who was defeated by Hon-eel knows she was defeated.

Jeff is explaining here how Hon-eel won (using a heroquest identity challenge); you won’t find it in so few words in any of the sources, but it all adds up.

[Darius West]

On 6/8/2020 at 3:06 AM, mikuel said:

This popped into my head so I thought I would ask it here.  

Why don't the Lunar Empire just send a group of soldiers to each clan during the high holy days of Orlanth and Ernalda?  They then could prevent the worship of these gods.  This is probably easier said than done.  I'm sure I'm missing something.  

For a start, a good portion of Orlanth worship is performed in secret during the Lunar Occupation.  Sartar is riddled with hollows and mountains where the Lunars aren't interested in going.  Sartar is replete with Orlanth holy sites and shrines are easy to make.  Orlanthi only need open air, an altar, and a consecration ritual.  The Lunars also have nothing against Ernalda.  Ernalda however hates Hon-Eel and the Red Goddess. 

Also, when the fist of the occupying forces that squeeze too hard, it finds the insurgency slipping out between their fingers.  As Leingod has mentioned, it will stretch the Lunar forces too far.  During the occupation, the Lunars mainly had to limit themselves to controlling the cities and crucial choke points like Runegate.  The trick of a well run occupation is to keep enough of a garrison in crucial areas to keep things peaceful enough to harvest taxes, and maintain a small but effective flying force for putting down rebellions when they flare up.  Victory for an occupation is when the land is providing more revenue than it costs to garrison.

During the occupation, the worship of Orlanth is forbidden in Clans, and their Orlanth Temples are closed.  The Lunars have been trying to encourage the worship of Doburdun, the tame Storm God of Darsen and Pelanda who appears on the Gods Wall in Sartar.  Many Orlanthi have been worshiping Barntar and his secret rebel military subcult that teaches how to manage a field of enemies and reap a bloody crop.

[jajagappa]

17 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The PHP don't agree with Pelorian narratives, so does this matter?

I think yes as it determines whether Yelm listens to the farmers or the nomads in the Redlands.

17 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Also, when did Hon-Eel prove she was Dendara?

In the pregnancy battle with the Reverend Mother of Horses (Redline History, 5th Wane as Nick noted above). 

[scott-martin]

21 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The PHP don't agree with Pelorian narratives, so does this matter? Also, when did Hon-Eel prove she was Dendara?

One of the things I really like about this twist in the thread is the way it reinterprets Hon-Eel's magical crusade against the horse people as also a reform within the post-Sheng Pelorian narrative. From a certain point of view, proving herself as a better Bride Of The Sun in that era simultaneously rectifies the relation between the Yelm and the Dendara they had in the Celestial Empire's wake. Before that achievement, the narratives didn't agree. After that achievement, after centuries of divergent development, they did. She found the Pelorians a new way to think about Dendara that might also be the return of an ancient way. She found the horse people a new way too. Some settled down and became "lunarized."

To quote Tight Indigo Pants, poet-prophetess of the white moon city, "Hon-Eel proved she was somebody's Dendara but not necessarily mine."

Now what's exciting about this of course is that the memory of this becomes imbedded in the imperial state policy apparatus as something you can try to integrate someone else's mythic system into the lunar way. Most cultures have somebody like a Dendara so they tried it in the south. But the identity of Dendara with Ernalda is controversial so it didn't really work. FHQ in particular laughed it off. This frustrated, confused and maybe even scared certain people who relied on this particular expression of the Eel complex, the "third" inspiration and not the present inspiration. So they kept trying weirder solutions that we might hear about some day when someone explicates Red Earth and "husband switches" and so on . . . but ultimately they pushed too hard and the wind went away.

 

[Eff]

It's interesting to think through the meaning of Hon-eel proving she's a greater Dendara by totally abnegating herself into one of the nameless Many who greeted Yelm at the Dawn. Many who are first will be last, etc.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 6/7/2020 at 6:47 PM, Jeff said:

To start with, there's aren't enough Lunar soldiers. At the height of the Lunar Occupation, right before the invasion of the Holy Country, there were about 20,000 soldiers in Dragon Pass, plus the Crimson Bat. There's about 200 clans in Sartar, so you are talking about sending 100 soldiers to every clan simultaneously, which means spreading things incredibly thin. The Volsaxi might even be able to march on Boldhome. 

 

 

On 6/7/2020 at 6:11 PM, Richard S. said:

Well they aren't trying to suppress Ernalda for one - everyone loves her.

As for Orlanth, of course they do. What do you think "Summon Evil" does?

Give you a random ogre[s] of the large number living among the Sartarites? Probably a Windlord or 3 and a priest.

I would have thought though almost every single Summon Evil would get you a next door neighbour every year. it becomes a race to who casts the spell first... or last.

I would say also that the vast majority of Lunars are not evil, but I suppose they could be, but that really would mean that your feuding nextdoors are too...

Dumb dumb dumb spell.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

Answering some of the first posts about the Lunars spreading themselves too thin, this is very true, but as for the Sartarites reacting almost instantaneously, how would they do this? They don't have perfect communication and it would also mean large numbers of Orlanthi missing the high holy day, surely a piss poor omen for the rest of the year if not a decade, and all that rune magic you don't get? Even if they sent 98 Lunars, that would still mean 400+ [its not EXACTLY 40 thousand, right?] Lunars to defend Boldhome and the BAT, which must be one of the best defensive tools ever! It would also mean the Voxsaxi leaving their homes completely defenseless to go and fight...

But the fight is a forgone conclusion, so who cares?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 6/8/2020 at 4:09 AM, EricW said:

The people being attacked would probably get a warning from their god before they blew all their magic points, and set a nasty trap, with everyone all pumped up with magic, vengeance and fury. High holy days direct communication with the deity is easier.

You know they can't see the future, right? Gods are very limited in what they can do, that's why they uses their pawns to do it.

[EricW]

16 minutes ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

You know they can't see the future, right? Gods are very limited in what they can do, that's why they uses their pawns to do it.

A vision of lunar soldiers sneaking towards their village, or the wind blowing the voices of soldiers talking as they approach the village towards listeners pumped with magic from high holy day ceremonies,  would be warning enough.

The Lunars had enough magic and strength to cause serious harm on any day, but why attack your enemy when they are at their strongest? That would be practically begging for more casualties. A court martial for incompetence would be a likely outcome, even if the Lunar attackers were victorious. Better to wait for a full moon, and strike when Orlanthi magic is at a low point. Nobody can predict the future, but Lunar sages would know about Orlanthi magical cycles and could read a calendar and do some calculations.

Edited March 27, 2022 by EricW

[Jose]

4 hours ago, EricW said:

A vision of lunar soldiers sneaking towards their village, or the wind blowing the voices of soldiers talking as they approach the village towards listeners pumped with magic from high holy day ceremonies,  would be warning enough.

The Lunars had enough magic and strength to cause serious harm on any day, but why attack your enemy when they are at their strongest? That would be practically begging for more casualties. A court martial for incompetence would be a likely outcome, even if the Lunar attackers were victorious. Better to wait for a full moon, and strike when Orlanthi magic is at a low point. Nobody can predict the future, but Lunar sages would know about Orlanthi magical cycles and could read a calendar and do some calculations.

Yep, I would attack when Orlanths ring is not in the sky but in the underworld for example, and in the full moon day. I think that Celestial Lore check is in order 😁

[soltakss]

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

On 3/25/2022 at 7:46 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

Also, when did Hon-Eel prove she was Dendara?

In the pregnancy battle with the Reverend Mother of Horses (Redline History, 5th Wane as Nick noted above). 

Well, that is a matter of interpretation, both in Glorantha and for us.

Hon-Eel definitely proved that she had a stronger connection to Yelm, by bearing twins fathered by Yelm instead of fathered by a powerful Fire/Sky deity.

She was bathed in Yelm's Light, having joined the Watchers before Yelm's Dawn.

Some might say that makes her Yelm's Wife.

Some might then say that makes her Dendara, as Dendara is Yelm's Wife.

My view is that Yelm probably didn't even notice her as he rose, so she probably isn't even counted among the wives of Yelm. After all, you don't have to be someone wife to bear their children.

[Leingod]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

My view is that Yelm probably didn't even notice her as he rose, so she probably isn't even counted among the wives of Yelm. After all, you don't have to be someone wife to bear their children.

But would even a Lunarized Yelmite be willing to accept the idea that Yelm would ever father a child on someone who wasn't his wife?

[soltakss]

38 minutes ago, Leingod said:

But would even a Lunarized Yelmite be willing to accept the idea that Yelm would ever father a child on someone who wasn't his wife?

Maybe, who knows.

It is dangerous to say "All Yelmites behave this way" or "All Lunarised Yelm worshippers behave the same way".

Also, most Yelm worshippers are Lunarized to an extent, as the Red Emperor is the Dara Happan Emperor and the head of the Yelm cult.

[Jeff]

38 minutes ago, Leingod said:

But would even a Lunarized Yelmite be willing to accept the idea that Yelm would ever father a child on someone who wasn't his wife?

The Yelm cult accepts that Yelm has loads of offspring in three categories:

1. Those with no mothers. These are the "Parts of Yelm" - Antivirus/Kargzant/Yelmalio, Vrimak, Bijiif, etc.

2. Those with the Earth Goddess. Murharzarm (Yelm Imperator), Shargash (Tolat), Buserian (Lhankor Mhy), Yelorna, etc.

3. Those with other mothers. Golden Bow, Avivorus, Noonlight, Twilight, Rausa, and many more. Yelm of course had many concubines - he was an emperor after all!

[Eff]

57 minutes ago, Leingod said:

But would even a Lunarized Yelmite be willing to accept the idea that Yelm would ever father a child on someone who wasn't his wife?

I think a highly Lunar Yelm worshiper might have the most problems with the concept. The idea of fidelity in marriage being reciprocal requires a level of belief in equality between the people involved, so for an unreformed patriarch it is of course understandable that Yelm has many concubines, etc. 

[JRE]

I do not see much conflict, as long as they do not communicate... The Patriarchy takes concubines for granted, the Lunar establishment supports equality but also probably polygamy and polyandry. Makes me wonder if the New Pelorian for second wife and second husband may not be based in the Dara Happan for concubine, so they can believe they understand each other...

[Manunancy]

On 3/27/2022 at 4:28 AM, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

 the BAT, which must be one of the best defensive tools ever! It would also mean the Voxsaxi leaving their homes completely defenseless to go and fight...
 

The bat as a defensive tool has a very big drawback : it's a dman effective weapon, but it's a seriously high-maintenance one - you can't keep it in one spot for long before you need to either move it to greener pastures or start to deplete your tax base and goddwill reserves.

The Bat is more akin to an SSBM - the big expensive mass destruction weapon you bring out to smash the big and nasty problems. That makes it ill suited to a a guerilla war as the local will lay low until it's somewhere else, attack quickly and melt back in the background before the bat can be back. The bat can be only in one place at  time.