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Your Dumbest Theory


scott-martin

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There's a joke in there about the Zorak Signal, but I'm not smart enough to figure it out.

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ROLAND VOLZ

Running: nothing | Playing: Battletech Hero, CoC 7th Edition, Blades in the Dark | Planning: D&D 5E Home Game, Operation: Sprechenhaltestelle, HeroQuest 1E Sartarite Campaign

D&D is an elf from Tolkien, a barbarian from Howard, and a mage from Vance fighting monsters from Lovecraft in a room that looks like it might have been designed by Wells and Giger. - TiaNadiezja

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20 minutes ago, AlHazred said:

There's a joke in there about the Zorak Signal, but I'm not smart enough to figure it out.

zorak.jpg.b39fcbe8a3a2c67f485ed7b75e5d3520.jpg"The Zorak cult is originally alien even to the trolls, deriving from what we could call the primordial insect complex now dominated by secular Gorakiki and esoteric Aranea. In this model the zombie thing is actually an injection of psychedelic fungus and female larvae that work together to create the illusion of 'undead' animation that responds to (hypnotic) outside command. The corpses themselves aren't coming back from the dead and so don't trigger Humakt agitation or Sense Chaos. Trolls think it's normal. Worse and weirder things happen to them all the time."

"Naturally this means Arachne Solara is Zorak Zoran's Zoraunt, which explains his curious quasi-illumination at the sight of the infant sun . . . and his role at Hill of Gold, incidentally."

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Separately, most of the "suffixes" found in troll god names (and reflected in the archaic earth pantheon) aren't so much epithets as pronouns. Darkness has many genders that only tangentially map onto binary mammal biology: argar, umbar, zoran and of course lit[h]or [usually translated "mistress" by the gringos] among others. Argan, for example, is the primary exponent of the argar "gender" within time. Etc.

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But neither Argar Argan, Zolan Zubar nor X. Umbar are troll archetypes worshiped as deities - they are some other form of Darkness entities. We have the man rune of darkness deities in KL and her seven sacred ancestors, plus a few occupational further generations, as we have the beast rune of darkness deities (the Gorakikis, Aranea, Bagog...)

They denote types of dark (exposed to fire) rather than types of personhood, IMO. Umbar may be distant exposure without lasting hurt, Argar may be some mastery over lesser exposure, and Zoran may be badly fried but not dead yet.

 

"How do you want your steak?"

"Argar, please."

 

(Too bad that few Darkness worshipers have barbeques.)

Edited by Joerg
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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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Darkness is not understood by creatures who do not partake of it, since "not being part of the darkness" involves a rejection of the ambiguities inherent in it. It was the first Element; all other Elements self-determined their way out of ambiguity into immutable forms. Hence, in Darkness, a thing "is not, until it is." This is best illustrated in the myth of Aether's birth in the Underworld.

The myth, as repeated by humans, is that Zorak Zoran uncovered the infant Aether and was burned and disfigured when he tried to eat it, Argan Argar turned away, and Xiola Umbar "remembered what she saw." These "three curious spirits" were actually one spirit, Kygor Litor, and these are the three quintessential troll reactions: "fight, flight, and figuring." That is: react with violence, react by running away, and react by waiting and calculating future advantage. In the ambiguous Darkness, this is the normal state of spirit affairs.

Edited by AlHazred
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ROLAND VOLZ

Running: nothing | Playing: Battletech Hero, CoC 7th Edition, Blades in the Dark | Planning: D&D 5E Home Game, Operation: Sprechenhaltestelle, HeroQuest 1E Sartarite Campaign

D&D is an elf from Tolkien, a barbarian from Howard, and a mage from Vance fighting monsters from Lovecraft in a room that looks like it might have been designed by Wells and Giger. - TiaNadiezja

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56 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Separately, most of the "suffixes" found in troll god names (and reflected in the archaic earth pantheon) aren't so much epithets as pronouns. Darkness has many genders that only tangentially map onto binary mammal biology: argar, umbar, zoran and of course lit[h]or [usually translated "mistress" by the gringos] among others. Argan, for example, is the primary exponent of the argar "gender" within time. Etc.

Given that Argan is also associated with enlo, and the uzuz is the "Mistress Race"/litoric body, perhaps the Curse of Kin was less a transformation than a revelation... Which may play into Kitori (kitori) and Ezkankekko (no gender postposition there) and other such intermediates between Dark and other peoples. 

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The Thelxinoë of the Graclodont set.

Eight Arms and the Mask

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15 hours ago, RHW said:

My dumbest theory is that Shargash and Zorak Zoran are two aspects of the same god, which is why they never appear in the same myth together.

Shargash and Zoran are their mirror children born of that moment when a nuke went off in the Upside-Down. Shargash isn't one of the souls of Yelm, he's the child born from that moment: life that grows from death, the Shiva-like god who has this weird relationship with the Underworld. That's where his demon-men come from: his origin. He is a Fire god of slash-and-burn because he is the god of new birth from genocide. That story is so old it has been forgotten to all but perhaps his greatest rune-lords, who know his secrets. Even his names as lord of slash-and-burn are ancient; that agriculture isn't in use in Genertela.

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7 hours ago, AlHazred said:

Darkness is not understood by creatures who do not partake of it, since "not being part of the darkness" involves a rejection of the ambiguities inherent in it. It was the first Element; all other Elements self-determined their way out of ambiguity into immutable forms. Hence, in Darkness, a thing "is not, until it is." This is best illustrated in the myth of Aether's birth in the Underworld.

The myth, as repeated by humans, is that Zorak Zoran uncovered the infant Aether and was burned and disfigured when he tried to eat it, Argan Argar turned away, and Xiola Umbar "remembered what she saw." These "three curious spirits" were actually one spirit, Kygor Litor, and these are the three quintessential troll reactions: "fight, flight, and figuring." That is: react with violence, react by running away, and react by waiting and calculating future advantage. In the ambiguous Darkness, this is the normal state of spirit affairs.

On some dusty scroll somewhere in a locked Yuthuppan library, there's a tale about how, when Aether manifested, his inherent magnificence caused an unnamed Darkness Spirit to grow heavy with his child. The Darkness entity fled to the Underworld, where another of her kind helped her give birth to twins. One child was Dark, the other was on Fire. Immediately they set on each other and the victor ate the loser, absorbing his powers.

What's never been clear is who ate whom.

Edited by RHW
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33 minutes ago, RHW said:

On some dusty scroll somewhere in a locked Yuthuppan library, there's a tale about how, when Aether manifested, his inherent magnificence caused an unnamed Darkness Spirit to grow heavy with his child. The Darkness entity fled to the Underworld, where another of her kind helped her give birth to twins. One child was Dark, the other was on Fire. Immediately they set on each other and the victor ate the loser, absorbing his powers.

What's never been clear is who ate whom.

Big Dumb Dumb Theory coming up:

Nysalor vs. Arkat is a repeat of Shargash vs. Zorak Zoran.

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Read Shargash For Aether Throughout and it becomes extremely generative as it were.

right, i was just clarifying for people who can't access Trollpak that it's not literally Shargash in the text

this is wild theorycrafting i didn't mean to harsh your vibe

Edited by Qizilbashwoman
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The Curse of Kin was unintentional. Kyger Litor swallowing Nysalor and Nysalor bursting out of her made Nysalor her child. As such, her children in turn give birth to Nysalor-like children, the enlo. Because Nysalor was divided, multiple births are usually enlo. Because Nysalor's rebirth was traumatic and painful and because he's a being of Light, uz pregnancies are difficult and enlo are frequently born with disabilities from physical incompatibility between mother and children on an elemental level. 

And with Nysalor shattered and dismembered, there's no chance of reconciliation because Nysalor can't be invoked to allow for safe births of enlo/N-lor Uz. 

EDIT: Alternately, reassembling Nysalor and then making him get unbirthed and rebirthed by Kyger Litor in a less traumatic way would also work, and may be easier than talking it out. 

Edited by Eff
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The Thelxinoë of the Graclodont set.

Eight Arms and the Mask

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On 9/1/2021 at 6:18 AM, RHW said:

My dumbest theory is that Shargash and Zorak Zoran are two aspects of the same god, which is why they never appear in the same myth together.

Now that I think of it, they're kind of like mirroring opposites, Zorak Zoran is an underworld deity that spends a lot of time on the surface (beating ppl up) and has control over fire and Shargash is a Sky deity that weirdly spends a lot of time and has a "locale" in the underworld. Sounds like material for a very cool heroquest. 

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I really want to explore how this ZZ-SHSH relationship is expressed in the wider Tolat identity. Tolat is a fertility/love deity as well, for example, which is sorta shorn off/subliminated in Shargash (probably externalized into the identity of Alkor post-Golden Age), and entirely absent in ZZ, so is there some deeper symbolism there?

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On 8/31/2021 at 10:18 PM, RHW said:

My dumbest theory is that Shargash and Zorak Zoran are two aspects of the same god, which is why they never appear in the same myth together.

Lots of folk have that suspicion. But the God Learners found that theory very problematic for many reasons.

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4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Lots of folk have that suspicion. But the God Learners found that theory very problematic for many reasons.

INT. GOD LEARNER LAB - DAY 

Professor Bunsen Honeydew prepares a vial full of glowing fiery red fluid. His assistant Beaker nervously holds a flask full of oily black gunk.

HONEYDEW: Now, Beaker, I will pour my vial of Flaming Essence of Shargash into your flask of Congealed Zorak Zorani Wrath, and the resulting concoction will prove that these two Runic Complexes are actually both aspects of Fire Dark Disorder Death Runic Complex Prime.

BEAKER: Meep. Meep-meep-meep.

HONEYDEW: Fear not, Beaker. For we are Serious Thaumaturgic Investigators fulfilling the Glorious Purpose Directive! The Invisible God is on our side.

BEAKER: Meep. Meeeeeeeep.

HONEYDEW: And begin!

Honeydew pours his vial into Beaker's flask.

BEAKER: Meep-meep.

The combined ingredients momentarily form a blood red substance which whirls into a small, quickly rotating, dark but intensely hot orb.

HONEYDEW: Success!

BEAKER: Bye-bye.

The orb explodes, blasting Honeydew, Beaker, and the entire lab into oblivion.

EXT. OBSERVATION POST - DAY

Two Senior Observers (STATLER and WALDORF) wearing protective gear watch a distant fireball blast out from the site of the lab. A massive mushroom cloud rises into the air.

STATLER: Problematic.

WALDORF (correcting): Very problematic. 

 

 

 

Edited by RHW
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45 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Of course, to make matters worse, in some of the conventions, Greg mentioned the Lunar belief that Orlanth worship was misapplied worship of Shargash!

(At least according to panel transcripts in conbooks.)

Just possibly they saw art of Orlanth and Ernalda being intimate, or rather, saw an unruly masculine figure with a thunderbolt and a goddess with a prominent addi putting it to use on said figure. And then they put two and two together and got fourteen. 

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The Thelxinoë of the Graclodont set.

Eight Arms and the Mask

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