Your Dumbest Theory

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Let's confuse matters

That earned me the extra +1% illumination. Now I know how elves and dwarves really emerged out of a common Earth stock . . . and why they learned to hate each other once the lines were drawn. 

Some shrooms went Mostal. Most of the rest drifted into the Dark or were born there anyway. We dare not go a hunting, for fear of little men.

Edited November 22, 2021 by scott-martin

[scott-martin]

Most well-known "hsunchen" tribes aren't actually archaic survivals who never learned civilized ways, but instead represent the fallen (I do not use the word "degenerate") descendants of nations that pursued alternatives to the great imperial systems or opted out . . . and were cursed for it. Dragon people, great wolf empire, lords of the dance (bull dancers, snake dancers), Hykimites, barkulists, pipers at the gates of Dawn. Some of these alternative systems were if anything more sophisticated and even more "modern" than the aggressive cultures that first methodically eradicated competitors and then heroquested to cover their guilt with a compelling story about beast rune people inexorably receding from the world under the ablative pressure of Time.

That is a sad story, but not True. The true tragedy of history: the brutes won and the material traces of their fallen foes were universally suppressed, again and again and again.

While the God Learners turned this into a literal science of conquest, the roots of the ideology are found in the rhymed genocides of Hrestol against the lion kingdoms (on the one hand) and Nysalor's expulsion of the Broken Council rebels (on the other). The bitter womb of the trolls is only a metaphor, a new story to dress their perpetual solar sadness, an armature of fresh blame. Otherwise the arkat would have fixed it. As for the lion people, it took a few generations beyond the flamesword before their great-great-great-grandchildren once again sat on the throne of Seshnela . . . and thus was their doom rendered permanent and truly awful.

But we are who we are and we can do better.

- Black Hralf, Weasel Words / Weasel Wisdom

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by scott-martin
his style is difficult to translate simply and clearly

[Alex]

28 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Most well-known "hsunchen" tribes aren't actually archaic survivals who never learned civilized ways [...]

Too clever by half, this off-topic! 🙂

28 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

- Black Hralf, Weasel Words / Weasel Wisdom

Dook-dook.  *nods sagely*

[Eff]

19 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Most well-known "hsunchen" tribes aren't actually archaic survivals who never learned civilized ways, but instead represent the fallen (I do not use the word "degenerate") descendants of nations that pursued alternatives to the great imperial systems or opted out . . . and were cursed for it. Dragon people, great wolf empire, lords of the dance (bull dancers, snake dancers), Hykimites, barkulists, pipers at the gates of Dawn. Some of these alternative systems were if anything more sophisticated and even more "modern" than the aggressive cultures that first methodically eradicated competitors and then heroquested to cover their guilt with a compelling story about beast rune people inexorably receding from the world under the ablative pressure of Time.

That is a sad story, but not True. The true tragedy of history: the brutes won and the material traces of their fallen foes were universally suppressed, again and again and again.

While the God Learners turned this into a literal science of conquest, the roots of the ideology are found in the rhymed genocides of Hrestol against the lion kingdoms (on the one hand) and Nysalor's expulsion of the Broken Council rebels (on the other). The bitter womb of the trolls is only a metaphor, a new story to dress their perpetual solar sadness, an armature of fresh blame. Otherwise the arkat would have fixed it. As for the lion people, it took a few generations beyond the flamesword before their great-great-great-grandchildren once again sat on the throne of Seshnela . . . and thus was their doom rendered permanent and truly awful.

But we are who we are and we can do better.

- Black Hralf, Weasel Words / Weasel Wisdom

 

Become ungovernable by becoming a turtle! Or a bat. I had wondered what those Pujaleg are doing hanging around Trowjang and Melib in the Guide. It's perhaps no surprise Harrek finds something of interest in Laskal to occupy his attention for years at a time... 

[Joerg]

Eurmal is the mother of Lodril!

After she visited the sky, she came down with fire.

[Eff]

A minor one:

The reason the Red Emperor returns in the Mask of Phargentes the Younger in 1638 is because he is obligated to perform the propitiatory sacrifices to Thrice Blessed, which would have been due in 1639 after their completion in 1628. These would be the 27th propitiation. Twice that is 54, which is the length of a wane in years. 54*11 is 594. Very close to that 600-year cycle of the Devil's return in King of Sartar...

[Alex]

5 minutes ago, Eff said:

54*11 is 594. Very close to that 600-year cycle of the Devil's return in King of Sartar...

Identical, to within the (zero-to-)one-significant-figure accuracy of prophesy!  KoSmaths doubly so.  Almost excessively close!

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Eurmal is the mother of Lodril!

After she visited the sky, she came down with fire.

 

I believed that storm gods were only cousin of light gods but now...

 

As Eurmal found death and Umath is the father, we can consider that Eurmal is Humakt mother

then it means that Lodril is Humakt brother,

then... Yelm and Dayzatar too

 

Yelm and Orlanth are brothers

Storm Bull is Dayzatar's brother

 

 

 

 

 

[Alex]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Yelm and Orlanth are brothers

Wandering Sun, Jealous Sibling!

[Leingod]

Not so much a theory as just a half-formed idea for both an alternate heroquest path and some identification of mythic items: The Lawstaff/Justice Staff is actually the same item as the spear called Justice that manifested itself for Elmal when his brothers attacked him, and which represented "the last bit of good in the Fire Tribe." Elmal presented this spear to Orlanth when he set out on the Lightbringer Quest, which was also when he and Orlanth exchanged shields. In other words, Orlanth obtained the Fire Tribe's power of (and command over) Justice, and with it the true divine right to rule, when he resolved to do the right thing and resurrect his enemy to save the world.

Anyway, Elmal giving Orlanth his spear and exchanging shields with him is effectively the Elmali version of the Hill of Gold story where Orlanth beats Yelmalio and takes his spear and shield. In places where the cults of Yelmalio is less hostile to that of Orlanth, I think these two stories are merged; when Yelmalio encounters Orlanth on his way to the Hill of Gold, Orlanth appears as an old enemy, but now a penitent one, who has resolved to risk death and worse to make right his biggest mistake (i.e. killing Yelm). Perhaps he's lost his weapon, or Yelmalio is somehow made aware that Orlanth will need Yelmalio's spear for his quest to succeed.

If Yelmalio refuses to offer his spear, Orlanth turns violent, beats him and takes both it and Yelmalio's shield, as in the "standard" version of the myth. If Yelmalio is willing to offer Orlanth his spear, Orlanth makes a vow of friendship and offers to exchange shields to seal it. If Yemalio refuses, nothing happens (though perhaps Orlanth gets a bit grumpy), and he'll lose the shield regardless in the next station. If he accepts, then Orlanth's shield will provide some benefit to Yelmalio before ultimately being lost as well. This probably makes some point about making a willing sacrifice of personal power for the greater good, and of being willing to aid even an enemy if their cause is truly just.

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:07 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Yelm and Orlanth are brothers

According to Jeff, there are indeed places in Glorantha where this is the general belief.

[Richard S.]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

According to Jeff, there are indeed places in Glorantha where this is the general belief.

It's honestly not that surprising when you consider how often Orlanth and Umath get equated.

[Alex]

4 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

According to Jeff, there are indeed places in Glorantha where this is the general belief.

I think the whole "generations" thing in the theogony is pretty moveable.  Look at Vinga:  Gen 1, Gen 2, or Gen [anything up to whatever Rastagar was, give or take]?  What different does it make magically and mythically?  None.  The "historical" truth might be all of those, or none of those...  doesn't especially matter.

2 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

It's honestly not that surprising when you consider how often Orlanth and Umath get equated.

Right.  And Humakt is in the mix, too -- apparently in Greg's earliest writings, they were essentially the same -- or inconsistently jumbled up -- and David Dunham had a take (for his East Wilds "Orlanthi" -- or Humathi, I should perhaps say!) that IIRC kinda-sorta goes in the same direction.

If we were folklorists, ethnographers, anthropologists and allied trades looking at such material in the RW, we'd likely be seeing this in terms of these being relics of cultural fusion and supplantation, in the way we see in the Greek theogony, and the layers and reconciliations we see in Hinduism.

Personally I think this is great and deep stuff so is Off-Topic for this post, but the forum being the forum, I'm confident someone will be around shortly to say yup, it real dumb. 🙂

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, Alex said:

If we were folklorists, ethnographers, anthropologists and allied trades looking at such material in the RW, we'd likely be seeing this in terms of these being relics of cultural fusion and supplantation, in the way we see in the Greek theogony, and the layers and reconciliations we see in Hinduism.

Personally I think this is great and deep stuff so is Off-Topic for this post, but the forum being the forum, I'm confident someone will be around shortly to say yup, it real dumb. 🙂

Nope, not dumb at all.  

[Alex]

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Nope, not dumb at all.  

I apologise unreservedly to the thread! 😄

[soltakss]

On 11/22/2021 at 3:14 AM, Sir_Godspeed said:

I really wish they'd just make fungus "Darkness plants" and end it there. Not Aldryami, but certainly Flamali. No need to bring bloody cellular biology into this.

They are, in my Glorantha.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

They are, in my Glorantha.

 

To spin this further:

Fungi came into being after Death was brought into the Middle World, and Flamal was killed. Flamal descended to the Underworld, where he coupled with a Darkness deity, and produced fungi: the Darkness plant that primarily survives by eating dead matter.

I know there's a dozen ways to pull this apart, but narratively I think it's satisfying.

[scott-martin]

7 hours ago, Alex said:

I apologise unreservedly to the thread! 😄

One of the deep motives of this thread is of course to provide a space to talk about the most profound aspects of Glorantha without tripping too many internal censors. Sometimes these things can only be effectively communicated as a joke, a dream, a shaggy dog story, a dumb theory.

For example 

25 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Fungi came into being after Death was brought into the Middle World, and Flamal was killed. Flamal descended to the Underworld, where he coupled with a Darkness deity, and produced fungi: the Darkness plant that primarily survives by eating dead matter.

is damn good stuff. There probably won't be room for it in Shannon's book. It doesn't matter . . . we have it here now and would-be mycoshamans can follow the golden spore as far as it goes.


 

[scott-martin]

In areas of Glorantha where the technology of ritual enchantment draws more heavily on weaving and knots than on inscription and tattoos, you find these interesting "unicursal" variations. Tribal Prax supports both systems. One old woman tied this for me and said it means "Biggle Stone."

When I asked, she explained that the first one shows how the fruiting body forms, then you retrace in the other direction to remove the fruiting body. What's left behind contains the infinity rune, but she didn't talk about that and I didn't ask.

[Nick Brooke]

52 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I have seen a very similar Rune traced on the walls of Glamour brothels. Just saying.

[scott-martin]

9 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

I have seen a very similar Rune traced on the walls of Glamour brothels. Just saying.

 

Oh yeah, you can take the girls out of Naveria when they come into the city for work but you can't take Naveria out of the girls. We love 'em for that, to misquote the Kate Bush video with all the fruit dancing.

Intimately related: why Pamalt is friendly with mountain gods but not the jungle.

[French Desperate WindChild]

13 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

According to Jeff, there are indeed places in Glorantha where this is the general belief.

Well if I start to speak like Jeff, the dumbest theory would be that all new publications will be in french only, it is time to put this world in a greater status😛

 

but more gloranthan.. Yelm is the brother of Orlanth lights up the lore differently (light, yelm, hum... poor joke)

 

we know that Orlanth's uncles sent him and his brothers in some places to test them (or forget them ...)

we have some names:

the uncles were Magasta, Genert, Lodril, Dehore and Kalt

the brothers: Vadrus, Humakt, Storm Bull, and... an unknown name, "the other one"

 

 lot of them are more or less kings of their elements.

We think too that the uncles sent them because they were afraid about their future power, with one of these divine kids as the probably next leader of the world.

 

now, what say the storm voices ?

Orlanth and his storm brothers where sent by the uncles because they didn't want (or were jealous of ) Orlanth as the next king of the gods...

They say then  that the unknown storm brother was Ragnaglar.

 

but that a very storm centric vision.

 

Let see now the world differently. All of the gods sent are :

the cloud (Orlanth) = water = Magasta's challenger

the beast (Urox) = nature = Genert's challenger (after all what is Prax and the waste lands ?)

the death (Humakt)  = the underworld  = Dehore's challenger

the annihilation (Vadrus) = the opposite of renewal = Kalt's challenger

the other one = ??? = Lodril challenger

 

mmmmm Lodril's challenger... Orlanth's brother .....  next leader of the world.... Yelm of course !

Yelm was sent in the sex pit. Of course this guy had to fail the test, we know how squeamish he is (not sure for the word but you see what I mean...)  see how sundomers are!

 

So now we know that Yelm failed in the sex pit... we know that some people recognized him as Ragnaglar... That explains why the dara happan emperor is the only leader in the world welcoming both chaotic army and "loyal" army on his land, right ?

what can we find more ?

let say the great compromise is not only the separation between mundane world and gods world but something different.

What if after so many fights between the gods, the gods themselves understood that if they continue the world would collapse.

What if they decided to make a peace, a great peace. Yelm and Orlanth make peace. Yelm is no more the enemy of Orlanth. Yelm-ennemy-or-Orlanth part is removed of Yelm the god. Yelm-ragnaglar part is removed of Yelm the emperor god. for ever. Yeah

that is the great compromise :

the gods split themselve to remove their enemy parts.

the gods split to remove their enemy part of the peace and the law

the gods split to remove their chaotic part. The gods became the law gods

there was no chaos god before the great compromise, only gods who fought against themselves, gods against the universe law.

I let you find what is the chaotic part of the others

maybe Humakt  and Vivamort ? who knows ? could be, after all, vivamort was a storm god if I remember, a god who feared the death, who feared... himself

so what is the great compromise ?

the creation of the chaos gods

 

Not convinced ?
mmm see the runes

the moon, the illumination, the good and the evil, 

the stasis, the peace... , half of the moon...

coincidence ? mmmmm

the redmoon is the goddess who refused to split herself, she was the victim of the net of Arachna

she wants to heal the world ..

to heal = to put back in place 

to heal the gods = to put back in place the chaotic part of the gods 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Intimately related: why Pamalt is friendly with mountain gods but not the jungle.

That's the other Pamalt who is worshipped by the elves.

Genert has Tada, and Pamalt has Pamalt of the Necklace.

[scott-martin]

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

the other Pamalt

Yeah, I should've put that in distancing quotation marks.

"Pamalt" is no friend of the jungle. But that's probably a fine point of distinction that revolves around whether someone identifies as Arbennan, Doraddi, Agimori or something else like "Kresh."

30 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the other one

I love this. Whenever we see a character without a name or face we can project all the possibilities across it and see if we can generate a productive match. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if there are "Malkions" who can serve as both evil uncles and fallen sons in this story . . . as long as we remember him as a child of the air. Maybe the storm god of the west betrayed or was betrayed and changed his name.

[scott-martin]

Images that depict "the historical Malkion" as a black stone (salvaged from the sea, now worn smooth) provide a valuable hint to the inner alchemy of the West but the real body of the prophet is more of a soft and spongy mass . . . edible like a tuber or a kind of leaven loaf. While this "biggle" stone is now forgotten it's always been there underfoot. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by scott-martin