Your Dumbest Theory

[JRE]

The Dragons know this is coming, and from their side it is the last opportunity for the last True Dragons to leave their breeding grounds in Glorantha, to roam other universes, and why they make available the resources of the old EWF, as they try to force growth and enlightenment in the remaining proto-dragons. They also play all sides, as their aim is enlightenment and then leaving the world in a ritual Utuma, and that cannot be achieved from only one direction.

[JRE]

The elder races are aware of this process, and see the extinction of humans as the only way to avoid the separation of the Timed and the Timeless. Their plans will cause huge suffering but will eventually fail, and cause a backlash that combined with their growing weakness effectively means their separation from the world or their extinction. 

I am not totally sure about the dark trolls and the dwarves, but I see them also as time creatures. In any case I would expect humans to be the main Time beings. Mostali, Uzuz, most or all Aldryami, but also the animal part of Hsunchen or the divine part of temples just leave the world.

 

[JRE]

IMG one secret of the diamond dwarves and the explanation of the immortality of dwarves is that they gradually transform themselves, by replacing the clay with their designated element, into Mostali. This is a gradual and slow process, but it keeps dwarves immortal while they progress towards it. That also satisfies my personal peeve with Isidilian, the dwarf of Dwarf Run, being considered a Mostali in most sources. Dwarves that do not reach diamond status in their allocated time, fall victims to entropy and are recycled.

That means only dwarves remain at the end of the Hero Wars, but they will claim success and that the World Machine is finally repaired. Free from their duty, dwarves can do as they see fit.

[JRE]

As I do not feel confident opening new threads, or ressurrecting dead ones, I will keep using this thread as sounding board. If something seems interesting to others it can be moved to its own thread. The diadvantage of being a few years late to the party.

After reading the fascinating Western Hero Wars Status Quo thread, and as Safelster has been my main Gloranthan interest for years, I would like to put forward a couple of dumb theories...

The Five Arkats. Since Genertela through the Guide we have been pushed for seven Arkats, yet we have five archons (which do not really equate to five Arkats, but let's play with it) in Safelster. As it is highlighted in the Guide, I expect the initial gaming period (1625-1630) will be dominated by the New Seshnelan invasion, and the surprising Safelster resistance highlighted by the renewed contact with Arkat. We will also have the Karia chaos upsurge, but I am not sure if that will be mostly an Orlanthi concern, and possibly the reason why they cannot rely on Lankst to push the Rokari back. 

My first theory is that Arkat is too big a hero (or too contradictory) to fit in one body, so as expected he does return in seven, but two of them are not in Safelster, or even in Ralios. We all have a clear candidate further to the East, and you can speculate whether he is the Liberator or the Destroyer, or maybe a different one. We have some pictorial evidence that a trollish one is in Safelster. I would theorize the missing one is in the Lunar Empire, is also a well known multibody user, and apparently will even become Emperor. So Arkat Gbaji is happily plotting in Dorastor and probably destroying the other incarnations of Ralzakark, and the absence of two of the seven will hamper both the power and the collaboration of the other five, as well as eventually forcing them to get involved in central Genertela, once their own crisis are over. 

Killing an Arkat is pretty useless, as he will be back, quite soon, in the body of one of his chosen companions, that are groomed as proto-Arkats. However, if two or more Arkats die in a short time, you might get a different Arkat than you expect...

The second theory concerning the Arkats is that I do not see them as being the mighty and powerful characters in Safelster now. If we are thinking of secret societies and cabals running things from the shadows, all the obvious candidates are off. I would prefer if, apart from one or two (the troll, that surely should come from Naskorion, will be difficult to wrangle), this is player character territory, or at least a potential player character development. It does not need to be even a Malkioni, as I am sure an orlanthi could well qualify for Arkat Chaosbane in Vermonstram and the Karia conflict.

I think Argin Terror is a red herring for an Arkat. As in the TV police procedurals, he is too obvious, and not all dreadful menaces need to be a stand in for an old enemy. He can do his thing and be a perfectly new menace. makes him more interesting that way, and he was around being terrorific much longer that the supposed opening of the way to Arkat.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

As I do not feel confident opening new threads, or ressurrecting dead ones, I will keep using this thread as sounding board. If something seems interesting to others it can be moved to its own thread. The diadvantage of being a few years late to the party.

the big issue I see with all your theories is they are a little bit too smart to not be interesting threads by their own rights !

[JRE]

My problem is that although I have checked some private interests and checked previous discussions, I would hate to reopen something already discussed to death and boredom, or even worse, scorched earth and sunspears. As you surely have noticed, I tend to use too many words.

[Akhôrahil]

Oakfed = Cthugha

Edited March 31, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

As you surely have noticed, I tend to use too many words.

my dumbest theory (not sure I will be able to do more after this one:

@JRE and @Joerg are two masks of the same deity

 

note that I find a lot of interest on your both posts even if... sometimes...  😛

 

 

[JRE]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

@JRE and @Joerg are two masks of the same deity

 

We met at Tentacles, Castle Bacharach, in 1997, so there are witnesses we are two separate people. We could be different Arkats, however.

I GMed him in the Tower of Xud PBEM, 1996-1997, and by the end I had saved our correspondence to and fro and it exceeded a million words, ten times as much as the second most prolific, with Paolo Guccione. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately for the rest of the universe, the 31/2" disks were corrupted when I checked them a few years later.

[AlHazred]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Oakfed = Cthugha

The quality (?) content I come to this thread for!

[French Desperate WindChild]

have you seen this fundamental thread was not in page 1 ?

As a great Order keepr I have to do something

 

here is the future of Glorantha

 

I will named post Argrat ages as "age A+1", "age A+2" ...etc

 

age A 0, gods utuma, it is now not possible to join the god to obtain any spells for personal purpose, rituals may howewer works (bless crops, etc...)

At the end, the (new) gods see a new herowar,  as some fool people navigate to the end of the world, north, east, west, south, and then can visit the god time again

 

age A+1 the gods decide to close definitively their own world. New Issaries and New Lhankor Mhy find a solution: people going to the west will find the east. People going to the north will find the south. The best form is a sphere

New gods change their roles :

New Subere will be the external boundary of the word as old subere was the first able to emerge and resist chaos dissolution. Trolls and other dark entities (gods, mortals, spirits, etc...) are able to join subere.

Without darkness in underworld, underworld becomes a fire place, New Lodril, now unchained, supplants New Yelm as fire leader. All fire deities go to underworld.

Without fire deities in the sky, New Orlanth is now the only master of the sky, and all celestial bodies (moons, planets, ..).

Between underworld and sky there are still earth and see. New Ernalda is happy as she has her fire lovers under her and air lovers hum... you see what I mean, bless the goddess

To allow communication and ... coordination between all her lovers, New Ernalda  obtains that a messenger take the role of the sun, without any other power than become the symbol of the male lover. New Yelmalio less fire than other deities is chosen, new role, new name is " El Male"

At the end of the age New Ernalda is tired by her lovers, always discussing, ... never acting. Earth revolt is conducted by elves and dinosaurs. Dwarves succeed to convince New Orlanth to put down the rebellion. New Orlanth "sacrifices" the dead red moon, throwing it to the earth. Dinosaurs are all destroyed. Elves and dwarves destroy each other. Few humans survives, those who where hidden in deep caves

 

age A+2 the gods council decides that both new Orlanth and new Ernalda were wrong.

New Ernalda is now deprived of liberty, as the woman is responsible of the original sin. She must only take care of the growth of her children, the plants. Her animal, the serpent, is now considered as the devil picture

New Orlanth, who only reacted  from the ambitious and lustful new Ernalda is not guilty, but, to avoid any accident, all celestial bodies are given to the peaceful Subere who succeed during all the age A+1 to block chaos.

New Subere gets more and more importance, her trolls succeding to gain territories from chaos.

The world is changing, New subere, in perpetual expansion, changes her name to "Space", Glorantha, whitout any explanation, maybe to attract a little interest, decides to name herself "IRL", a no sense word in any language, but has glorantha any sense ?

at the end of A+2, human beings start to leave their cave, now the only "smart" race on earth.

 

age A+3 humans succeed to conquer IRL, that is history

at the end of age A+3 humans by a worldwide collective effort, launch a new project "Icarius", a vessel able to visit the space. They don't see the trolls, they don't see the spirits, they don't see what is beyond the space, but they open a breach

age A+4 there is no age A+4, chaos has no time

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[Darius West]

On 3/29/2022 at 9:14 PM, JRE said:

The Dragons know this is coming, and from their side it is the last opportunity for the last True Dragons to leave their breeding grounds in Glorantha, to roam other universes, and why they make available the resources of the old EWF, as they try to force growth and enlightenment in the remaining proto-dragons. They also play all sides, as their aim is enlightenment and then leaving the world in a ritual Utuma, and that cannot be achieved from only one direction.

I don't think this is the last True Dragons.  Just the latest batch.  There is little to suggest that the dragonewts go extinct as a result of the Hero Wars.

[JRE]

It is not a positive proof, but if I remember right, we have no proof either they survive in the Fourth Age. I have King of Sartar in a box somewhere, but I got the impression they were not really in the stories. And keep in mind that the premise is that the material world loses contact with the Godtime, and all immortals either go away or die, and I would apply that to dragonewts.

And in any case, if after 1800 years and a Hero War you have not made it to dragon, you will not do it in the magic-less fourth age.

[JonL]

On 1/6/2022 at 11:46 AM, Joerg said:

This is the only thread I think fit to announce the little file I uploaded:
 

Dart warrior ducks in the Lunar Empire on a mission of revenge.

Also known as, "Inglorious Mallards."

[Darius West]

20 hours ago, JRE said:

It is not a positive proof, but if I remember right, we have no proof either they survive in the Fourth Age. I have King of Sartar in a box somewhere, but I got the impression they were not really in the stories. And keep in mind that the premise is that the material world loses contact with the Godtime, and all immortals either go away or die, and I would apply that to dragonewts.

The fact is that the dragonewts never featured heavily in the history of Glorantha, which is largely written for and by humans imo.  Now it is possible that someone broke into the dragonewt cities and smashed all their eggs, as happened before the Dragonkill, but as there are plenty of active dragons during the Hero Wars, it might be suicide.  

That being said, using the boardgame Dragon Pass, I can also raise the counter-argument that if one side of the Hero Wars managed to ally the dragonewts, that doesn't preclude the other side using a dragon to destroy the dragonewts...  But then again, is that really lore-friendly, even if it could feasibly happen in the boardgame?

20 hours ago, JRE said:

And in any case, if after 1800 years and a Hero War you have not made it to dragon, you will not do it in the magic-less fourth age.

Yeah, what can you say about creatures that have existed and reincarnated since Before Time and haven't quite figured out what this whole "eating" thing is all about *snortlaugh*.  It is fair to underline the incompetence of the remaining dragonewts JRE, and I sometimes think that their idiosyncratic behavior may be a product not of the dragon path, but their ingrained long term dumbassery being translated into dogmatic and ritualized foolishness. But, we must always respect and give other cultures the benefit of the doubt, even (I must stress this), regardless of how ridiculous their antics may appear to be.  The fact is, the dragonewts do have a very strange and wonderfully alien society, and the EWF has demonstrated that there is real power and potential there, and frankly I am very fond of them as a literary creation quite apart from their use as NPCs in RQ.

To your actual point however, for the most part, dragons seem to be immune to the long term effects of humanity's mistakes and own-goals in Gloranthan history.  Their magic is completely independent of the Theistic, sorcerous, and even shamanistic systems, as it is mystical in its inclination, and the fact that the Dragons are the one that haul down the Moon suggest to me that they and the dragonewts will be doing their own thing through the 4th Age and beyond.  I can't see them boarding ships and sailing to the Grey Havens (forgive the comparison plz).

Edited April 30, 2022 by Darius West

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

The fact is that the dragonewts never featured heavily in the history of Glorantha, which is largely written for and by humans imo.

I'm one of those people who find documentation for uninterrupted dragonewt occupation of Glorantha unconvincing. Instead, I think it's more likely that the colonies are part of a deeper process or cycle of hatch and hibernation . . . when local conditions are favorable, the hyperdimensional dragon eggs incubate and ultimately hatch.

Because the new colony retains continuity with its previous experience ("karma") the new newts can't be convinced that they haven't been there forever. If sages find ways to test the artifacts, there's no empirical difference between them and authentically ancient stuff. Or else there's no reliable way to age test dragonewt material objects at all . . . forensic divination "slides off" the obsidian and dragon bone in known ways, forcing the sages to abandon the question.

Sometimes it appears that a dragonewt irruption replaces an existing non-newt population. In other circumstances, a colony vanishes and at least sometimes a non-newt community (that may or may not have always been there before) continues in its place. In its entirety, EWF may be the closest thing we have to documentation of the whole of the cycle. I have my suspicions about Kralorela and Teleos, however.

In this cyclical model the dumbest and most perpetually neotenic newts are left behind every time. Screw ups. Juvenile delinquents of the soul. While they theoretically advance from irruption to irruption it's hard to say . . . talking to them about this rapidly becomes confusing and produces dinosaurs.

We can hope for their sake that the ones incarnated now are the last ones left who haven't learned what they want to learn here. The Hero Wars may give them a short cut, rescue mission or other metaphoric way back to full dragon consciousness. Presumably the most evolved expressions spend their time working on this kind of challenge.

A cyclical species would naturally have an interesting ideological relationship with the modern lunar way. Again, however, the Kralorelan perspective is probably even more interesting . . . but talked about even less.

[davecake]

On 4/30/2022 at 8:22 PM, Darius West said:

The fact is that the dragonewts never featured heavily in the history of Glorantha, which is largely written for and by humans imo.

I think that’s a pretty controversial statement as it stands, considering their key role in the EWF and it’s rise and fall, but it would be quite ridiculous to say they have not featured heavily in the History of Dragon Pass. Their role is just not always highlighted in human histories. 

On 4/30/2022 at 11:35 PM, scott-martin said:

A cyclical species would naturally have an interesting ideological relationship with the modern lunar way. Again, however, the Kralorelan perspective is probably even more interesting . . . but talked about even less.

We know the Red Emperor devoted some effort to opposing the Dragonewts Dream And in doing so, magically excised dragons from Lunar cosmology. So the Lunars seem to have rejected any bridge to the Dragonewts - who, of course, opposed the creation of Osentalka so are presumably opposed to the modern Lunar Empire too.

Which doesn’t mean the Dragonewts and the Goddess herself might not understand the dragons destroying the Moon as a mystical utuma, completing the cycle and releasing the Goddess from her links to the material world.  
The Kralorelan perspective is, I agree, the most interesting, as the Kralorelan Dragonewts appear to acknowledge Godunya as a dragon. 

[davecake]

On 4/30/2022 at 12:15 AM, JRE said:

And in any case, if after 1800 years and a Hero War you have not made it to dragon, you will not do it in the magic-less fourth age.

Recall that dragonewts use of dragon magic is said to be spiritually harmful. Perhaps if they can not use dragon magic, and/or have less need to do so if there is less magic used by their enemies, this is actually a huge advantage in the slow process of becoming a dragon? 

Who was it who is said to have destroyed the magic? A known follower of the draconic philosophies you say? Maybe the reduction of magic was the dragon plan, having tried giving the humans access to dragon magic and seen what a hash they made of it. 

[JRE]

I still find it strange to have a resurgence of Dragon Magic and very little Dragonewt mention. On the other hand they are the only Elder race without a known plot to hurt humans, though the key word here is "known". Maybe Argrath is their plot. 

On the other hand, once Argrath goes full EWF, he might have reasons to get rid of the dragonewts, as they destroyed the first incarnation. Or Phargentes, when he will take Sartar, will have the opportunity to destroy the dragonewt cities. Certainly they were not his allies. 

The Chronology is quite iffy, but Inkarne pushed Cragspider out of Dragon Pass, and normally that could only happen if the Black Dragon was not around. I suspect a secondary effect of Argrath waking up dragons is that the dragons go away to do draconic things, and that could leave the dragonewts in Dragon Pass without protectors...

[soltakss]

On 4/30/2022 at 1:22 PM, Darius West said:

The fact is that the dragonewts never featured heavily in the history of Glorantha, which is largely written for and by humans imo.

They participated in the creation of Osentalka, acted as mercenaries for Nysalor/Gbaji, helped build the Empire of the Wyrm's Friends, assisted the Golden Emperor Dragon when he ruled Dara Happa, took part in the Dragonkill, policed the Inhuman Occupation of Dragon Pass, performed the Dragonewt Dream, and blasted open the doors to the Big Rubble.

So, some quite heavy featuring to me.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, JRE said:

The Chronology is quite iffy, but Inkarne pushed Cragspider out of Dragon Pass, and normally that could only happen if the Black Dragon was not around. I suspect a secondary effect of Argrath waking up dragons is that the dragons go away to do draconic things

Recall from the cover of the Guide that two of the battling figures are Cragspider and Can Shu - I think part of this battle is the struggle for "allegiance" of the Black Dragon.

[Darius West]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

They participated in the creation of Osentalka, acted as mercenaries for Nysalor/Gbaji, helped build the Empire of the Wyrm's Friends, assisted the Golden Emperor Dragon when he ruled Dara Happa, took part in the Dragonkill, policed the Inhuman Occupation of Dragon Pass, performed the Dragonewt Dream, and blasted open the doors to the Big Rubble.

So, some quite heavy featuring to me.

Dragonewts literally took a back seat to humans and other races in every story you present, except for the Dragonewt's Dream.  Also, compare the number of stories in which dragonewts appear and compare it to the number of stories in which they play no part and you reach an understanding that dragonewts are a largely quiescent force in the world, as you would expect from somewhat mentally mediocre mystics.  The dragonewts were even a secondary force to humans in history during the EWF, when they sort of help out a bit in the beginning and then sit there while the humans take off running with what they know about their "new toy" draconic magic.  This shouldn't surprise anyone, as these are the remedial class of the dragonewts; the other more adept dragonewts have already moved thru the rebirths and become true dragons, while the ones left behind are still failing at tasks like figuring out the whole "eating" thing.

[Darius West]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

I think that’s a pretty controversial statement as it stands, considering their key role in the EWF and it’s rise and fall, but it would be quite ridiculous to say they have not featured heavily in the History of Dragon Pass. Their role is just not always highlighted in human histories. 

Controversial, perhaps, but the dragonewts took a back seat to humanity in the EWF even while fueling human adoption of the Dragon Path.  Great dragonewts already became dragons Before Time.  The ones that are left are mediocre creatures; Nietzsche's "the broken and the busted" of dragon-kind.  With a small portion of the same tools the dragonewts are heirs to, humans build a massive empire and achieve unparalleled progress on the Dragon Path in a short time.  It is highly likely that many of the higher ranks of the dragonewts today are actually humans who were reborn into the dragonewt cycle.

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, davecake said:

I think that’s a pretty controversial statement as it stands, considering their key role in the EWF and it’s rise and fall, but it would be quite ridiculous to say they have not featured heavily in the History of Dragon Pass. Their role is just not always highlighted in human histories. 

Per the board game, the dragonewts only enter in the Full Game where you start allocating diplomacy points to independent powers, and again in the thre-way game where the Exiles and other independents form the third party in the already complicated hero wars (while other independents like Ethilrist or Cragspider, or those allied individually like the True Dragons or the Spirit of Movement, stay out of that game)..

Allying with one of the parties typically leads to the occupation or destruction of the nests in the territory of the party losing the alliance - something one might expect in the course of the Hero Wars, too.

 

9 hours ago, davecake said:

We know the Red Emperor devoted some effort to opposing the Dragonewts Dream And in doing so, magically excised dragons from Lunar cosmology. So the Lunars seem to have rejected any bridge to the Dragonewts - who, of course, opposed the creation of Osentalka so are presumably opposed to the modern Lunar Empire too.

They do recognize the Lunar kings of Tarsh as a legitimate power in Dragon Pass, though, which may even extend to Emperor Phargentes II Takenegi during the occupation of Dragon Pass following Argrath's decisive defeat at Yoran.

What I don't see at all is the Lunars reepeating the mistake of the Golden Horde to try and exterminate the dragonewts piecemeal in an unstoppable invasion.

 

9 hours ago, davecake said:

The Kralorelan perspective is, I agree, the most interesting, as the Kralorelan Dragonewts appear to acknowledge Godunya as a dragon. 

Godunya's utuma leaves the Kralori dragonewts without their Inhuman King equivalent, which might become a major issue in the upcoming events in Kralorela unrelated to Ignorance or the Antigods in general.

 

 

8 hours ago, JRE said:

I still find it strange to have a resurgence of Dragon Magic and very little Dragonewt mention. On the other hand they are the only Elder race without a known plot to hurt humans, though the key word here is "known". Maybe Argrath is their plot. 

Why bother when the humans are so excellent at hurting each other already?

The dragonewts might use the Hero Wars to uplift the slacker dragonewts worth saving into dragonhood while all those excess energies abound, giving up on the rest, or giving those time to rebuild an upper echelon at their own Time-bound pace.

 

8 hours ago, JRE said:

On the other hand, once Argrath goes full EWF, he might have reasons to get rid of the dragonewts, as they destroyed the first incarnation. Or Phargentes, when he will take Sartar, will have the opportunity to destroy the dragonewt cities. Certainly they were not his allies. 

I don't see any evidence of Argrath going full EWF - the Proximate Holy Realm he creates may resonate with draonic energies, but in the end he is building temples of the Reaching Storm rather than creating anything like the Dragons' Ring of the EWF. There is no indication of Argrath sponsoring or even tolerating a Grand Dragon scheme or other such ambitious fripperies outside of his Reaching Storm.

Argrath might regard himself as the blade of the utuma rather than the recipient, or the dragonewts might regard him as such. If they do hitch a mass ride on that Lunar utuma, they may welcome his ambition and even support it to some degree that wouldn't threaten their flawless ascension.

 

8 hours ago, JRE said:

The Chronology is quite iffy, but Inkarne pushed Cragspider out of Dragon Pass, and normally that could only happen if the Black Dragon was not around. I suspect a secondary effect of Argrath waking up dragons is that the dragons go away to do draconic things, and that could leave the dragonewts in Dragon Pass without protectors...

Inkarne might own her own dragon, though, neutralizing any such advantage held by Cragspider.

[davecake]

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Per the board game, the dragonewts only enter in the Full Game where you start allocating diplomacy points to independent powers,

Joerg, I was referring to the History of Dragon Pass, not the couple of decades covered by the board game. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by davecake