Kallyr’s light bringer quest

[Jeff]

47 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Thanks for the elaboration, Jeff. I've been a bit disappointed that the LBQ seems to be treated as just some random ressurection spell, but your contextualization makes things more meaningful.

The Lightbringers Quest is about restoring the cosmic order by returning the Sun from Hell. It certainly shouldn't be treated as a resurrection spell.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 6/14/2020 at 8:39 AM, Charles said:

At some con, I remember Greg telling us that he'd like to set it up so the decision of whether to resurrect Kallyr be left in the hands of the player characters, who would have a lot of knowledge of why she would not want it. Her remaining closest friends would not want to make that decision.

What a great idea - that Greg person was really smart!  🙂

Having seen Kallyr 's very sad and feeble state before the Battle of the Queens, my Kallyr-fangirl would definitely let her travel on to the halls of Orlanth and rest in peace.

Trouble...
I don't want no more of you
So won't you be kind to me
Just let me go where
I'll have to go there

[Oracle]

On 6/14/2020 at 10:01 PM, jajagappa said:

Any number of possible reasons, but you are correct that he is dead and was not resurrected.  Could have been oathbound, and the oath kept him from returning.  Could have been that is soul was captured.  Could be that his soul was severed by Yanafal Tarnils (or his stand-in) and no one could undo what Death had done to him.  Could be that his soul was eaten by the dragon.  Could be that they had been in the Underworld and crossed the River Styx already when he died so no means to bring him back.

Ok, so there is no 'canonical' explanation, just the usual speculation ... 😉

[Darius West]

Yeah, what happens when a Hero Quest fails or goes seriously wrong?  It is a question worth asking, and one not asked often enough.  One might imagine that death would not be the worst thing that could happen.

Let's face facts, Kallyr was not born under a lucky star.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Darius West

[Darius West]

On 6/16/2020 at 1:24 AM, Jeff said:

The Lightbringers Quest is about restoring the cosmic order by returning the Sun from Hell. It certainly shouldn't be treated as a resurrection spell.

And yet...

[Runeblogger]

30 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Yeah, what happens when a Hero Quest fails or goes seriously wrong?  It is a question worth asking, and one not asked often enough.  One might imagine that death would not be the worst thing that could happen.

Fully agree. For example, in the Ritual of the River described in the Sun County book, failure means the quester is geased (read cursed) with not being able to cross the river or any of its tributaries for a whole year. When I ran it with RQ3, telling the players beforehand what was at stake had the necessary impact.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Runeblogger

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

And yet...

And yet what? It is not my problem if some people on these forums do that. That's not how it appears in mythology or in any stories Greg or I have written. 

[davecake]

On 6/15/2020 at 11:24 PM, Jeff said:

The Lightbringers Quest is about restoring the cosmic order by returning the Sun from Hell. It certainly shouldn't be treated as a resurrection spell.

When it resurrects a mortal, I think what comes back is more than they were before. At the very least a Kaelith as per the Xeotam dialogues (as Harmast, Arkat and Talor all explicitly are) but a bit more as well. They've been in the underworld, they've confronted gods, they have connections to the world of the gods they can draw on. 

[Lordabdul]

18 hours ago, Jeff said:

And yet what? It is not my problem if some people on these forums do that. That's not how it appears in mythology or in any stories Greg or I have written.

FWIW, my perception of using the LBQ in a game was influenced by the last adventure in the Colymar Campaign of S:KoH. In that adventure, the heroes go on the LBQ to effectively bring back a specific person (Hofstaring Treepleaper). So just like @Sir_Godspeed I was a quite disappointed to see the LBQ used as a "cheap resurrection spell", and I ended up ignoring these scenarios, thinking that there must be something better to do with that myth... I was just not quite sure what.

Some of us are also not quite clever or literate enough to perceive the intended underlying symbolism and significance of Gloranthan myths   It really helps a lot (at least for me) when someone comes out and spells it out! This kind of goes back to something you said once... which is that "in world" documents can be as obscure and contradictory and vague as needed, but when it comes to writing a game book, it has to be clear and usable. So thanks for making it clear what the LBQ is for!

(to be clear: it is kinda spelled out in things like the Glorantha Sourcebook, but are there any other practical examples of using the LBQ in an adventure, except for that S:KoH scenario?)

Edited June 21, 2020 by lordabdul

[Stephen L]

31 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

last adventure in the Colymar Campaign of S:KoH

Thanks - I was originally after material to involve my players in Kallyr's light bringer quest, and being able to grab something from S:KoH would be very useful in getting the creative juices going, so the pointer is very useful.

 

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

FWIW, my perception of using the LBQ in a game was influenced by the last adventure in the Colymar Campaign of S:KoH. In that adventure, the heroes go on the LBQ to effectively bring back a specific person (Hofstaring Treepleaper). So just like @Sir_Godspeed I was a quite disappointed to see the LBQ used as a "cheap resurrection spell", and I ended up ignoring these scenarios, thinking that there must be something better to do with that myth... I was just not quite sure what.

Some of us are also not quite clever or literate enough to perceive the intended underlying symbolism and significance of Gloranthan myths   It really helps a lot (at least for me) when someone comes out and spells it out! This kind of goes back to something you said once... which is that "in world" documents can be as obscure and contradictory and vague as needed, but when it comes to writing a game book, it has to be clear and usable. So thanks for making it clear what the LBQ is for!

(to be clear: it is kinda spelled out in things like the Glorantha Sourcebook, but are there any other practical examples of using the LBQ in an adventure, except for that S:KoH scenario?)

The heroquest in the Colymar Campaign is not the Lighbringer's Quest, but at most a single small step in that quest (and given that none of the previous steps are made, I'd say it is not even that). Orlanthi use the Lightbringers as vehicles to make that descent because the Lightbringers are well-known for their descent into the Underworld - and we all know that they make it out. But Orlanthi use the Lightbringers as vehicles for most of their heroquesting (and even some non-Orlanthi do as well). That doesn't make this the LBQ.

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

The heroquest in the Colymar Campaign is not the Lighbringer's Quest, but at most a single small step in that quest

Ok thanks for the clarification!

[Akhôrahil]

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

FWIW, my perception of using the LBQ in a game was influenced by the last adventure in the Colymar Campaign of S:KoH. In that adventure, the heroes go on the LBQ to effectively bring back a specific person (Hofstaring Treepleaper). So just like @Sir_Godspeed I was a quite disappointed to see the LBQ used as a "cheap resurrection spell", and I ended up ignoring these scenarios, thinking that there must be something better to do with that myth... I was just not quite sure what.

Also, isn't "cheap resurrection spell" what Argrath's LBQ at the very least looks like? He sets out to bring Sheng Seleris back in order to open up a second front against the Lunar Empire for strategic reasons, with little obvious thought about spiritual content or cosmic order. Or am I missing something?

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, isn't "cheap resurrection spell" what Argrath's LBQ at the very least looks like? He sets out to bring Sheng Seleris back in order to open up a second front against the Lunar Empire for strategic reasons, with little obvious thought about spiritual content or cosmic order. Or am I missing something?

You probably are. And if Sheng is the Red Emperor's Shadow (see Fortunate Succession), then his absence is a missing part of the cosmic order.

[Akhôrahil]

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

(to be clear: it is kinda spelled out in things like the Glorantha Sourcebook, but are there any other practical examples of using the LBQ in an adventure, except for that S:KoH scenario?)

The big heroquest in Red Cow has that same "go into the Underworld to bring someone back" schema that we see a lot. Regaining Hara Orane in the HGQ rulebook does the same kind of thing in its heroquest. 

I'm thinking this schema was a mythic structure that already existed when Harmast pieced the LBQ together, and he used it as an important part of it.  

I believe there is a way to just perform the Westfaring and jump off on the way in order to get yourself transportation westwards?

Edited June 21, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

@Jeff , is the manuscript for the Big Campaign book already finalized? I assume it includes Kallyr's LBQ attempt? In which case there might be a good opportunity there for giving tips and context for how to satisfyingly use the LBQ in practice in a game? (along with its many variants and sub-parts) Or maybe that could go in the GM Guide with the heroquesting rules...

[Darius West]

On 6/20/2020 at 9:00 PM, Jeff said:

And yet what? It is not my problem if some people on these forums do that. That's not how it appears in mythology or in any stories Greg or I have written. 

And yet, look at what people actually use the LBQ for?  You say that people should use it as a way of restoring the cosmic balance, but let's face facts, the little proto-godlearners out there see it as a deep-dive long-term resurrections spell for people who have been dead for more than a week, and not much else.  I thought that went without saying, but I guess one man's obvious is not anothers'.

[Stephen L]

29 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Big Campaign book already finalized

Yes, yes please. 

My campaign is getting perilously close to Sacred time 1625, and I really don't want Kallyr to make her big exit without player involvement!

[Stephen L]

On 6/14/2020 at 2:09 PM, jajagappa said:

perhaps Kallyr doesn't really want to be associated with dragon powers

As good speculation as anything I can come up with.  Thanks.

 

On 6/14/2020 at 2:09 PM, jajagappa said:

Most should still be with her

I can work with that assumption.  I was worrying about missing something obvious, which it sounds as if there isn't.

[Jeff]

19 minutes ago, Darius West said:

And yet, look at what people actually use the LBQ for?  You say that people should use it as a way of restoring the cosmic balance, but let's face facts, the little proto-godlearners out there see it as a deep-dive long-term resurrections spell for people who have been dead for more than a week, and not much else.  I thought that went without saying, but I guess one man's obvious is not anothers'.

I don't think anyone tries to use it as a deep-dive resurrection for people who have been dead more than a week. It is way too fricking dangerous. Maybe if you said it gets used to try to bring back dead gods and demigods that have been killed by gods or god-like entities, then maybe you'd be standing on better ground. But even then it is not really that. The dead god/demigod is almost always an enemy of the quester (Yelm, Arkat, Talor, and Narnarra), and never a friendly entity. 

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, Stephen L said:

My campaign is getting perilously close to Sacred time 1625, and I really don't want Kallyr to make her big exit without player involvement!

Time to play some flash-back mini-campaign, or other spin-off using other characters!  Because that book definitely isn't coming soon enough for you.

(or, you know, spin it all yourself)

Edited June 21, 2020 by lordabdul

[Stephen L]

7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

or, you know, spin it all yourself

My intent.  Or indeed the original post, to see what I can crib for all the good folk here! 

[Darius West]

15 hours ago, Jeff said:

I don't think anyone tries to use it as a deep-dive resurrection for people who have been dead more than a week. It is way too fricking dangerous. Maybe if you said it gets used to try to bring back dead gods and demigods that have been killed by gods or god-like entities, then maybe you'd be standing on better ground. But even then it is not really that. The dead god/demigod is almost always an enemy of the quester (Yelm, Arkat, Talor, and Narnarra), and never a friendly entity. 

Well, given there is no other way of resurrecting someone dead for more than a week, you save the LBQ for someone important/skilled enough to warrant the risk.  Surprised?

[DrGoth]

17 hours ago, Jeff said:

You probably are. And if Sheng is the Red Emperor's Shadow (see Fortunate Succession), then his absence is a missing part of the cosmic order.

Does that mean the Red Emperor is part of the cosmic order? So when he goes missing something is out of whack?

Or to look at it another way, if both are gone, neither is needed any more?

Edited June 22, 2020 by DrGoth
forgot something

[Nick Brooke]

In Glorantha today, the Red Emperor embodies Yelm Imperator.

If you kill him, you bring back the Darkness, with Chaos following on its heels.

At first members of the Storm Tribe rejoice. And then they weep. And then they must atone.