Kallyr’s light bringer quest

[David Scott]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

One of the things about the LBQ is that when it resurrects someone,

Not a resurrection Quest. As previously mentioned it's about restoring the cosmic order.

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

there are frequently some kind of complications that work against a regular resurrect. Yelm doesn't want to come back, at least not by the hand of his enemy and without being given his dues. Sheng Seleris is locked in a Lunar hell. The Red Goddess is... it's complicated. I would be shocked to learn that Palangio didn't do something to make it hard for Arkat to resurrect normally.

May be Palangio did do something. Traditionally dismemberment is used to scatter the parts, there's a lot of that in the stories, that would stop self resurrection of all but the most powerful. The LBQ that brought Arkat back was a failure as he turned into a troll and Harmast did a second quest that returned with Talor. With enough worship, Arkat does return 5 times in the third age.

19 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

The LBQ is capable of cutting through all that.

If these are to be considered resurrection quests, then the two year time line and multiple dangerous steps do seem to be extreme. The plate and commentary in the Guide on page 122 would seem to confirm that. 

[Jeff]

17 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Not a resurrection Quest. As previously mentioned it's about restoring the cosmic order.

May be Palangio did do something. Traditionally dismemberment is used to scatter the parts, there's a lot of that in the stories, that would stop self resurrection of all but the most powerful. The LBQ that brought Arkat back was a failure as he turned into a troll and Harmast did a second quest that returned with Talor. With enough worship, Arkat does return 5 times in the third age.

If these are to be considered resurrection quests, then the two year time line and multiple dangerous steps do seem to be extreme. The plate and commentary in the Guide on page 122 would seem to confirm that. 

Harmast did not undertake his Lightbringers Quest seeking to resurrect Arkat. In his own words,

"In the thirty-third year of my life, because of the many wrongs which I had done to women, and because of the savage oppression delivered upon my people, and because of my desire to heal the errors of my life, I chose to attempt a pilgrimage to Redemption Edge, where Orlanth, our God had righted the errors of his own life. No one had made this entire journey before, but with the assistance of my servants and my friends, I determined to attempt it , or die trying.

The trip to the edge of the world is lengthy and difficult. It took us years to prepare and even then I thought myself ill equipped. Only the urgency of our need drove us to undertakeit this way, and I believe that greater preparations would ensure easier success."

Harmast emphasised that he was undertaking the journey to regain "the Grand Order" - with no mention of Arkat at all. In fact, I am not even sure Harmast planned to go as deep as he did (his quest failed in the Forest of Wonders and he was lost in the God World). But in the end, he (and his new companions) did regain the Grand Order, unreleashing a torrent of pent-up energies, releasing suppressed gods and spirits, and emboldening many peoples to wage war against Nysalor-Gbaji, against the Broken Council and the Bright Empire, and against hated oppressors. It just happened that the vehicle for this was the return of Arkat to the world.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

 The LBQ that brought Arkat back was a failure as he turned into a troll and Harmast did a second quest that returned with Talor.

I don’t think the first was a failure. The entity brought back is typically trouble after a while and not your friend - you get that on a successful LBQ. Cf. Sheng Seleris again.

Getting Talor seems a lot less impressive and decisive than gaining Arkat.

Not sure how productive it is to say that the LBQ isn’t a resurrection quest when that’s always the outcome, and frequently that intent, of a full LBQ. It’s just not only a resurrection quest.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

By the way, quick thought - can you imagine the stuff the God Learners would have done with the LBQ had they ever cracked the formula? The mind boggles...

[David Scott]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don’t think the first was a failure.

Fortunately you aren't Harmast or his fellow Lightbringers present at the time:

GtG page 130

Quote

In 448, Arkat joined the cult of Kyger Litor, taking the name Kingtroll, and then joined Zorak Zoran as well to bring mighty devastation against his foes.

This last act horrified many, especially the Lightbringers who had brought him to central Genertela and who now saw their quest a failure, since they had brought darkness instead of light. The survivors set off again to find proper help. The Humakti were shocked to see their once-revered leader acting trollish,

 

Edited June 24, 2020 by David Scott

[David Scott]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

By the way, quick thought - can you imagine the stuff the God Learners would have done with the LBQ had they ever cracked the formula? The mind boggles...

I don't believe it was of any use to them, its aim of restoring balance would have undone all their work... They may have used some the steps to achieve certain ends, but doing the whole thing may have backfired. They knew what Harmast had done and had seen the results. Maybe be one group did use it hastening the end of the Second Age.

[dumuzid]

 

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately you aren't Harmast or his fellow Lightbringers present at the time:

Serves them right for thinking of it in terms of the Lightbringers quest, not Lifebringers.  Shame on Harmast for forgetting it was no human who gathered the Unity Army to vanquish Wakboth's horde.  Shame on his companions for forgetting the debt all humans owe to Ezkankekko and the Darkness people, less than five hundred years since the Dawn.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately you aren't Harmast or his fellow Lightbringers present at the time:

GtG page 130

 

Yeah, I don't think people appreciate the depth of Arkat's betrayal. He rejected the Light (making the Lightbringers' name a mockery), betrayed Humakt to Zoran Zoran, and then betrayed humanity itself to the trolls. 

But the Grand Order was able to be restored - Nysalor was destroyed by his Shadow. The Broken Council was overthrown, and for a while at least, mortals stopped trying to create their own new gods.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately you aren't Harmast or his fellow Lightbringers present at the time:

GtG page 130

But this is what LBQ success looks like! It's not as though Argrath's meant he didn't have to fight Sheng Seleris later, or that Orlanth's created lasting peace with the Sun. That whoever gets brought back is trouble later is part of the package (although Harmast might not have figured that out - Argrath likely did, though, and thought that was acceptable).

Edited June 24, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I don't believe it was of any use to them, its aim of restoring balance would have undone all their work... They may have used some the steps to achieve certain ends, but doing the whole thing may have backfired. They knew what Harmast had done and had seen the results. Maybe be one group did use it hastening the end of the Second Age.

I believe it's said somewhere that the God-Learners never managed to fully penetrate the Orlanthi mysteries, but not sure. I think we would have heard if they went around doing full LBQs.

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

trouble after a while and not your friend

This might be the heart of it, as it were. The "best friend" tantra always seems to break down sooner or later. But people keep trying to connect the pieces and start again.

24 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I believe it's said somewhere that the God-Learners never managed to fully penetrate the Orlanthi mysteries, but not sure. I think we would have heard if they went around doing full LBQs.

Probably a question of whether "fully" means complete or just good enough for government work. They had a lot of the recombinant elements (this is deep lore indistinguishable from YGWV) but seem to have lacked the right fundamental perspective and, as others have said, the motive to make anything more than the surface math happen. I wouldn't be surprised if Umathela in particular functioned as a kind of storm lab hoping to reverse engineer what the LBQ does. A kind of manhattan project. This would explain Sandy's rumors of variant lightbringer rings down there historically when we know they use the same seven as everyone else now.

I don't know if I could do a full-fledged LBQ with all the trimmings myself at this stage for what that's worth. It's a huge commitment. 

One stinger there might be how EWF (as what amounts to the home team) developed the system or whether they threw it away for something completely different.

EDIT I will also stick up for the Laughing Man, who may never have measured up to his "dad" but we have to trust he was the right guy for that time and place. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by scott-martin
TALOR

[David Scott]

51 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I believe it's said somewhere that the God-Learners never managed to fully penetrate the Orlanthi mysteries, but not sure.

I'd be interested in the source.

51 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think we would have heard if they went around doing full LBQs.

They were destroyed - from where ?

[Eff]

Really, Harmast and company, dealing with the Empire of Light, should have been able to figure out that restoring the Grand Order meant bringing Darkness back into the world...

[Jeff]

3 minutes ago, Eff said:

Really, Harmast and company, dealing with the Empire of Light, should have been able to figure out that restoring the Grand Order meant bringing Darkness back into the world...

Why? That sounds like the sort of rear vision theorising that comes long after the fact.

[Eff]

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Why? That sounds like the sort of rear vision theorising that comes long after the fact.

Well, they had a good enough understanding of the myths on a symbolic level to Heroquest them, so it doesn't seem like a huge leap from "Orlanth goes to seek the Grand Order because the world is growing dark and discovers that recovering it means making peace with the Emperor and bringing the light of the sun back into the world" to "The world is growing overly light, recovering the Grand Order means bringing darkness back into the world." 

Obviously, we don't have enough information on how the people involved would have viewed the universe, so they might well have not made that connection between the lack of the Grand Order, the disruption of the world by excess or lack, and the need to make good the excess or lack to restore the Grand Order. 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Eff said:

Well, they had a good enough understanding of the myths on a symbolic level to Heroquest them, so it doesn't seem like a huge leap from "Orlanth goes to seek the Grand Order because the world is growing dark and discovers that recovering it means making peace with the Emperor and bringing the light of the sun back into the world" to "The world is growing overly light, recovering the Grand Order means bringing darkness back into the world." 

Obviously, we don't have enough information on how the people involved would have viewed the universe, so they might well have not made that connection between the lack of the Grand Order, the disruption of the world by excess or lack, and the need to make good the excess or lack to restore the Grand Order. 

I'm not sure the Orlanthi viewed the world as becoming overly light. I think they were concerned that like Lokamayadon had tried to usurp Orlanth, the Heortling Kingdom had been suppressed, their traditional freedoms had been replaced with slavery, and stories of Chaos grew harder and harder to ignore. The trolls on the other hand saw it as such - as did Arkat.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

One stinger there might be how EWF (as what amounts to the home team) developed the system or whether they threw it away for something completely different.

At a guess, I would imagine they kept it with modifications - Draconic Orlanth is still Orlanth, after all. Perhaps with saps like "Orlanth and Yelm discover their shared Draconic natures" or something, down in Hell.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think we would have heard if they went around doing full LBQs.

The critical stage was when they started doing their massively resourced Power HeroQuests. It was only 79 years or so until the reversal snapped back. 79 years of concerted effort in destroying the non-sorcerous otherworlds. I find it hard to imagine that they had not plundered the LBQ for effects and artefacts, considering it's position in the myths of world. Don't forget, we know of only one thing they didn't manage to do, and that was the 10 year ritual to successfully open the Book Secrets (success being able to use it).

[Stephen L]

Gosh the thread that just keeps on giving.  But back to Kallyr’s short Light Bringer Quest…

I’ve got some pointers for the stages for a light bringer quest, King of Startar – thanks Jajagappa.

And indeed whom might still be amongst Kallyr’s accomplices (lacking Minaryth Purple, eaten dead, and Orlaront Dragon Friend, exiled perhaps because Kallyr’s not happy with the whole Dragon business.  On top of endless winters and all the rest, having dragons awaking in the Pass and eating everyone, whilst it might get rid of the Lunars, if it becomes a theme, I suspect she’d rather there was something left afterwards).

I’m beginning to have some inkling as to a scenario for my players.

The players, having just killed (or possibly been eaten, in which case this thread is rather academic, apologies for kicking it off!) by the dragon of Thunder Hills (and having some impressive Loyalty Kallyr passions), Kallyr looks about to find a replacement for Orlaront.  Hmm, that new Thane of Apple Lane is mighty fine looking, she thinks.  And they've killed a dragon.  That’s just whom I need!

And if her light bringers quest fails because there is a draconic element, and Orlaront isn’t there, then that would be great, because it throws the players right in the middle of things.  There was a sea dragon in the light Bringers Quest, but if Orlaront is the scout I’m not sure how he'd tie in.  Actually I’m not sure how a scout ties in at all.  The darkness ambush is foiled by Issaries protection of the camp, and most of the tracking is Eurmal following flesh man, but I’m sure something will come to me.  

Also, any handy hints for Questing rules?  I was planning to get Humakt, Raven, Wolf and also Six Seasons in Sartar, are these the best sources?

Thanks,

Stephen.
 

[scott-martin]

11 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

At a guess, I would imagine they kept it with modifications - Draconic Orlanth is still Orlanth, after all. Perhaps with saps like "Orlanth and Yelm discover their shared Draconic natures" or something, down in Hell.

Love it. Probably needs its own thread to avoid clouding this one but "dragon orlanth" would lean into utuma math in ways I don't think Kallyr was set up to handle. Ultimately a left-handed argrath steps up who can.

[Nick Brooke]

58 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

Also, any handy hints for Questing rules?  I was planning to get Humakt, Raven, Wolf and also Six Seasons in Sartar, are these the best sources?

Six Seasons in Sartar is brilliant, and does a really good job of showing you how heroquests work as part of the religion. I’d also recommend looking at 13th Age Glorantha, which has loads of non-system-specific advice about running heroquests.

If you can wait a week or two, the third volume of Sandheart will include a fully fleshed-out heroquest that’s rather cleverly presented. (Disclaimer: I’m doing layout on this; we’re just waiting for the cover and one last illustration to come in, and then it’s in the bag)

My usual advice is that you shouldn’t tie yourself down to one set of rules for heroquesting, and should try to be maddeningly vague about what’s going on whenever players find they’ve stepped outside their mundane reality.

Is The Duel at Dangerford a heroquest? Well, the adventurers have to cross perils to reach a sacred liminal place that’s protected by a magical guardian, then oppose what might be the symbolic personifications of their enemies (grunt, officer, demon) in ritual combat... but I never come out and say that’s what’s happening, because I like to keep you guessing.

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

My usual advice is that you shouldn’t tie yourself down to one set of rules for heroquesting, and should try to be maddeningly vague about what’s going on whenever players find they’ve stepped outside their mundane reality.

I’ll expand on this briefly, because it might be helpful. As a somewhat seasoned RuneQuest gamemaster (and a recovering simulationist), I have reached the point where I take the RQ rules as being binding on my players, only. Those rules explain, in detail, how those guys think the world works. Every detail of progression, every use of their powers, is nailed down.

My NPCs, on the other hand, can be whimsically concocted so as to provide entertaining opposition, rather than vigorously and faithfully simulated from the ground up; and any mind-boggling otherworld excursions (including heroquests) can be run in a way that’s pleasantly unhinged from the mundane reality simulated by the rules... which then becomes a feature, not a bug.

YGWV, of course. This is what works for me. Essentially, my players are playing within a fairly rigid RuneQuest simulation, while the world they’re in can be run using HeroQuest’s more narrativist assumptions.

[Leingod]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

At a guess, I would imagine they kept it with modifications - Draconic Orlanth is still Orlanth, after all. Perhaps with saps like "Orlanth and Yelm discover their shared Draconic natures" or something, down in Hell.

If we relate it to the way the Elements are believed to derive from the Cosmic Dragon in the Dragonewt's cosmology, the reconciliation could come from them first recognizing their draconic nature, and then realizing that this means they are actually part of the same whole and their initial conflict was self-defeating and pointless as a result. Which is more or less just an elaboration of the lesson already inherent in the Compromise and so not a particularly hard sell if you can get people to accept those premises in the first place.

[Sir_Godspeed]

44 minutes ago, Leingod said:

If we relate it to the way the Elements are believed to derive from the Cosmic Dragon in the Dragonewt's cosmology, the reconciliation could come from them first recognizing their draconic nature, and then realizing that this means they are actually part of the same whole and their initial conflict was self-defeating and pointless as a result. Which is more or less just an elaboration of the lesson already inherent in the Compromise and so not a particularly hard sell if you can get people to accept those premises in the first place.

Potential additions/angles: 

- Orlanth unknowingly helped Yelm achieve utuma by dismembering him. 

- He started off thinking he had to atone for his ills, but instead he realized that he had to perform utuma too. 

- Together they were liberated and achieved draconic illumination, thus reviving the world so as to open the way for lesser souls to achieve it as well. 

Just some loose ideas.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Potential additions/angles: 

- Orlanth unknowingly helped Yelm achieve utuma by dismembering him. 

- He started off thinking he had to atone for his ills, but instead he realized that he had to perform utuma too. 

- Together they were liberated and achieved draconic illumination, thus reviving the world so as to open the way for lesser souls to achieve it as well. 

Therefore, the correct way to handle the Red Moon issue is to help it perform Utuma...