Minor holy days

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, GAZZA said:

An interesting side point: if I have Worship Orlanth 5, and via expenditure of magic points and sundry bonuses on a High Holy Day have an effective skill of 95+, I will likely succeed at my roll. Does this garner a skill check, even though if rolled say 45 (which would not otherwise have been a success)? RAW seems to suggest it is, and I allow it IMG, but it is a bit cheaty.

The skill check is done if there is a "crisis". If you worship just to worship (or to replenish rune pools) I consider it is not a crisis :

you have 95% effective and it is just a standard ceremony => no xp check

you have only 5% at effective, you don't want to show your clan how weak you are, it is a crisis => xp check

you have 95% effective and the ceremony is done to save the clan / family / heroquest => xp check

Remember that with occupational xp, you can increase your worship skill even without xp check

[Thaz]

17 hours ago, Joerg said:

LIke I said, I think that the weekly rites are more or less optional. You go there if you want some meat you can't usually afford, or if you want a specific blessing, or if you want to support a specific blessing.

Likewise, the priesthood will have an idea how long it takes to transform a holy sacrifice into a palatable meal, and they will shrewdly have adjusted their ceremony to make the best out of that time.

A piglet for fifty will be no more than a few mouthful per person. A feast if all you can afford is thin gruel, but everyday food for a free household.

I think you've got two points there that contradict yourself. I in no way think that weekly worship is optional, it's not mandatory per se, but every one attends unless there is a really pressing reason not to. A sick child. A cow in calf. People will ask why so and so inst here today and offer help, sympathy or scorn as a result. This is the core of oralthi Cultural society and everyone attends their local shrine on their weekly holy day in most cases. Now I dont think they treck into the City or Clan tula temple, I think they attend their local village shrine which isn't far off. People don't live far from these as the world is a dangerous place. People live in villages with walls not on remote farms by and large. Villages have shrines. walking an hour or so to your village? Normal. 

Your right about the sacrifices being eaten of course and the congregation is going to be trying to make sure they feed themselves. Looks a lot like a pot luck to me.

Also I'd agree that the split of faiths has an interesting factor. Mostly the women will meet on one day, the men on others depending on their craft and inclinations. These will resemble sewing circles, lodge meetings and the dreaded women's institute. They really are the glue that binds the community together. And of course having all the farmers off one afternoon has less impact on households that _everyone_ and so on. 

These weekly small rituals of worship are what binds villages and steadings together.

The high holy and seasonal holy days are what binds the Clan and Tribe together and when you renew your oaths to your Chief and the Wyter and are much bigger and grander affairs. 

[Akhôrahil]

Related issue: to what extent do people in Glorantha know that they are "low on Rune Points" and "need a refresh"? They obviously don't count the points (Paulis Longvale notwithstanding), but they are presumably aware that worship is necessary to replenish rune magic. Can they tell when the tank is getting low? In this case, they should do minor worship whenever they need to fill up.

[Thaz]

On 6/11/2020 at 1:53 AM, GAZZA said:

Many adventures take longer than a week - indeed, many adventures the travel time alone is more than a week. These become unreasonably complicated to schedule if, in a party of 4, there are 4 different minor holy days that have to be respected each week or risk invoking spirits of retribution.

<snip>

So at least IMG I'm going to rule that for initiates, you are required  to attend the High Holy Day and Sacred Time events, you are expected to attend Holy Day events, and you are merely welcome to attend minor holy day events. That seems fair to me, while still being reasonably playable.

I agree having the impests show up for missing a minor weekly holy day is harsh. Missing all of them perhaps. I think it would just get raised eyebrows in your community unless it there were a good reason. "Varlanth? Oh he's hiding up in the hills somewhere since raiding the rival clans lands and they swore blood vengeance on him' , ' Idressa is off tending to her nieces family, their youngest slipped and broke his leg and took sick'. 'That band of young un's ? The Chief asked them to look into the cattle raids....I hope they find whoever took our best cow'

51 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Remove the 1 adventure per season, and replace it by 3 weeks of extraordinary activities per season. This solve several problems: The one you noticed and the very short duration adventures. It also force players (and the GM) to plan the longer adventures.

It's a good way of looking at it. I think we need some restrictions on regaining RP, otherwise players just burn all of theirs in the first fight. The constant hoarding of Rune Magic made RQ2 and 3 poorer places IMHO but there should be a reliance on spirit magic first and RP gets used for serious challenges. Having to be a little cautious because recovery is handy. Recently my players had to play things VERY differently having burnt all of their RP in one situation and then encountering a larger threat elsewhere.  

[Thaz]

 

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Related issue: to what extent do people in Glorantha know that they are "low on Rune Points" and "need a refresh"? They obviously don't count the points (Paulis Longvale notwithstanding), but they are presumably aware that worship is necessary to replenish rune magic. Can they tell when the tank is getting low? In this case, they should do minor worship whenever they need to fill up.

In my game rune points show in the brightness and clarity of the foci Runes and markings on your body. But more importantly the character knows their connection to their gods is weak. Obviously I don't know when personally a psychomotor vigilance task test would show scientifically that I am tired and need to take a knee from the fight but over the years I've figured out when I cant go on any further and I'd be taking a desperate risk . Your characters knows how much magic they can hurl about be it spirit or rune and knows when the tank is getting empty or is indeed empty. Character dont know how many hitpoints they have either but they know when they're gravely injured or had the crud beaten out of them

[BlindPumpkin]

1 hour ago, Thaz said:

These weekly small rituals of worship are what binds villages and steadings together.

The high holy and seasonal holy days are what binds the Clan and Tribe together and when you renew your oaths to your Chief and the Wyter and are much bigger and grander affairs. 

I think that could vary depending on wether or not you think a full, day long worship ritual is required for one to reap the benefits of a worship roll. Consider this: maybe the village doesn't get together every Clayday to perform a full-on worship ritual, but if a villager for some reason is looking to get some special blessing before the next holy day, or the village is under unusual duress and is in urgent need of their god, the priest may hold a ritual during a day of minor yet some significance to their deity, a minor holy day.

I think both interpretations are valid.

[Thaz]

1 minute ago, BlindPumpkin said:

I think that could vary depending on wether or not you think a full, day long worship ritual is required for one to reap the benefits of a worship roll. Consider this: maybe the village doesn't get together every Clayday to perform a full-on worship ritual, but if a villager for some reason is looking to get some special blessing before the next holy day, or the village is under unusual duress and is in urgent need of their god, the priest may hold a ritual during a day of minor yet some significance to their deity, a minor holy day.

I think both interpretations are valid.

I think there are some assumptions in there I would like to challenge. 

First off I'm pretty sure that spending the entire day in worship _isnt_ spending the entire day standing around in temple singing or whatever. I think it includes the hobnobing with friends, eating the meal, preparing it as an act of worship, all part of the deal. 

Benefits of worship? For most people attending the worship they are not going to have burnt through rune points every week or so. So no they don't need to spend the entire day on it but likely do spend most of the day on it. It's effectively their day off for the week. Their Holy day. Holiday. 

Again people are thinking about this far far too much like a transactional deal rather than a religious faith and social event. 'If I don't get to turn water into wine myself why should I go to church?' is not an attitude you'd have found much in 19th Century rural Europe/North America. Are we honestly saying we think the Orlanthi farmer is going to say "Ack I've got time in the bank with Himself so I dont need to go" Your looking at worship as some onerous task that must be done to get the goodies rather than the thing that farmer or housewife or hunter looks forward to all week as a day off the hard grind and a chance to catch up with their peers and get the gossip and .....

This is different if there's some crisis or major event going on. But I've known farmers that will allow a crop to sit while in desperate need of harvest because they had to go to church on Sunday even in my lifetime....

[Joerg]

8 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I think you've got two points there that contradict yourself.

I did say that doing your religious obligations on those days is a thing, but I also say that attendance to the services held by the priests or the local caretaker of the shrine is optional.

8 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I in no way think that weekly worship is optional, it's not mandatory per se, but every one attends unless there is a really pressing reason not to. A sick child. A cow in calf.

I do think that weekly worship is more or less mandatory, but weekly communal worship is not. The individual is expected to observe religious practices. The individual is not obliged to do so under supervision of the priest - the relationship to one's primary deity is very much a personal affair. Intercession of godtalkers or priests can be helpful, but is not required for the weekly stuff.

The initiate has their personal uplink to the deity. In RQ rules that is the point of POW sacrificed upon initiation into the cult. And yes, that sacrifice gives the initiate a rune point, and further rune points acquired will deepen that uplink.

Weekly services are a different entity, IMO. There will be sacrifice - some lesser routine sacrifice (maybe just some poultry), or sacrifices in order to make a bargain with the deity, asking for a blessing - which may mean prompting the godtalker or priest to take action on behalf of the petitioner and the deity. Summoning a cult spirit, for instance.

The rules talk about 20L for a rune point spent. This sacrifice and creating enough of a crowd for the holy person to regain the rune point spent on behalf of the petitioner in the service is how I interprete such a weekly communal service. Some thing will always come up, and the local poor will be willing to attend for some meat rather than just groats.

8 minutes ago, Thaz said:

People will ask why so and so inst here today and offer help, sympathy or scorn as a result. 

In all likelihood, people won't have to ask. Privacy in Heortling society is not much within the household, and the grapevine will carry news faster than a casting of Wind Words can. Gossip will carry these news.

There are plenty of jobs which will take people away from these activities. Often jobs that the community prioritizes over their attendance. Nobody expects the charcoal burner to attend that much while there is a batch of hot coal simmering in the forest. The poor guy will probably wish to come, as his food allowance isn't the best, and will be willing to walk the extra mile just for something substantial into his belly.

The nursing mother is expected to do so during the rites. Especially if it is an Earth rite.

Herders will be absent from the weekly communal rites for much of the year. They will have their private rites in their small communities in the hills, probably taking the various genii locorum as intercessors as they change pasture. While it may be only a few hours brisk hike or cross-country run to their home stead or the clan center (may very well be a few days if they use the high valleys of the Quivin or Storm Mountains or places atop sharp ridges or plateaus), they have an important job to do that they cannot abandon.

In Esrolian society, this is cause for scorn and low reputation as these individuals spend way too much time outside of direct grandmother control. In the freedom-loving society of the former Hendriki clans that make up a significant portion of the Sartarites, this kind of life has quite high reputation, and the consequences are well accepted.

In harvest situations, the rites will be held well before or well after work on the fields or pastures reserved for hay making is done. Someone performing a lengthy sacrifice while the rest of the people sweat cutting, shifting or carrying cut grass will be seen as an idiot - a selfish and self-centered person, unless the sacrifice deals with even more urgent stuff (like life-and-death health concerns).

8 minutes ago, Thaz said:

This is the core of oralthi Cultural society and everyone attends their local shrine on their weekly holy day in most cases. Now I dont think they treck into the City or Clan tula temple, I think they attend their local village shrine which isn't far off.

Clans have quite variant settlement structures. The neighbors of the Telmori will have rather fortified steads, and their herders may have hurdles for their beasts over night with defenses like thorny hedges, nasty spikes etc. creating a defensive bonus. Less organized wild beasts or dragonewt neighbours ask for a mobile response rather than fortification.

Looking at hamlets like the one in The Rattling Wind, I don't have the impression that these folk mingle much with the people in Fairjowl (the central settlement of the Antorlings) outside of clan festivals. The lack of fortification may be a reaction to having dragonewts as neigbours - trying to keep them out may cause more problems than them wandering through the hamlet and picking up an occasional chicken or similar.

That hamlet may have a small spot for communal worship, but not enough for an actual shrine as per RQG rules. Like with the herders, that may be different if they have the aid of a local minor deity or spirit associated with the cult taking over much of the role a godtalker or priest would take, with a local initiate acting as intercessor with such an entity. By inviting in "wild" worshipers, the congregation might actually get enough magic for an actual worship service ever now and then, with actual sacrifice beyond what you describe as pot luck below.

8 minutes ago, Thaz said:

People don't live far from these as the world is a dangerous place. People live in villages with walls not on remote farms by and large. Villages have shrines. walking an hour or so to your village? Normal. 

As per RQG, hamlets of less than 50 people (including some surrounding outlier cottages) have no business maintaining a permanent shrine. Their acts of devotion at an actual shrine will have to be done via votive figurines etc. most of the time, something alluded in the RQG rules.

There will be weekly pious acts. How much of that will be in the shape of a service, or in the shape of a private sacrifice, is a different question.

And yes, I think discussing this is a good exercise to explore the mindset of this "Bronze Age" culture.

8 minutes ago, Thaz said:

Your right about the sacrifices being eaten of course and the congregation is going to be trying to make sure they feed themselves. Looks a lot like a pot luck to me.

The necessary preparation time for this act of cooking will make a communal activity last for a couple of hours. You don't start your service with hacking off a few chicken heads and hanging them to bleed out before even having a communal invocation, ritual (and very mundane) cleansing observances, etc.

8 minutes ago, Thaz said:

Also I'd agree that the split of faiths has an interesting factor. Mostly the women will meet on one day, the men on others depending on their craft and inclinations. These will resemble sewing circles, lodge meetings and the dreaded women's institute. They really are the glue that binds the community together. And of course having all the farmers off one afternoon has less impact on households that _everyone_ and so on. 

These weekly small rituals of worship are what binds villages and steadings together.

As is meeting up in the drinking hall or the steam bath after sunset. The Romans managed to make the visit of the lavatory a social interaction...

8 minutes ago, Thaz said:

The high holy and seasonal holy days are what binds the Clan and Tribe together and when you renew your oaths to your Chief and the Wyter and are much bigger and grander affairs. 

They replace birthday parties or visits to the cinema, theatre, concert, whatever.

One aspect of those weekly meetings is training for the big events - ritual dance instruction, getting the costumes and masks into shape, memorizing the words or the tunes. All of these are quite social activities.

All of these take up a lot of time, and the demands of the agricultural year tops the ritual demands (to the extent that the ritual demands within sowing, irrigation or harvesting time will involve work in the fields or ditches. Ritual as well as practical.

[Thaz]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

All of these take up a lot of time, and the demands of the agricultural year tops the ritual demands (to the extent that the ritual demands within sowing, irrigation or harvesting time will involve work in the fields or ditches. Ritual as well as practical.

I think it's more your religion (or the communities at least) does not top the ritual demand but instead drives it. There is no separation of church and state. You don't alter your religion to suit your agricultural needs but more your religion says "And now it's time for us to bless the fields" and yes as you say it will involve work in them. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

I consider that worship is both act of devotion and sociability / community

people need to be in contact with the rest of their community. Worship is a good way for that

in rules aspects I would say if you are strong in man rune and or strong in god devotion / love clan / ... you have to join the ceremony each time you can.  => if you are far of any ceremony, you cannot, it s ok, if the baby is ill, take care (but maybe the ceremony will heal her), if you can join, roll against your passion if you don"t want to join

 

after the rune pool management is another story. More GP perspective than RP. your table may vary

 

 

[Joerg]

5 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I think it's more your religion (or the communities at least) does not top the ritual demand but instead drives it. There is no separation of church and state. You don't alter your religion to suit your agricultural needs but more your religion says "And now it's time for us to bless the fields" and yes as you say it will involve work in them. 

This even goes for urban rites. Only metropolitan (Nochet, perhaps even Boldhome) rites may be sufficiently remote from agricultural activities that those come in a purely or at least mainly ritual activity.

Worship of Sartar or Pavis includes road maintenance and/or building projects, and vice versa.

 

Looking at the population numbers for Sartar, those up to 10% "urban" people will include urban farmers and herders. Especially for places like Clearwine or Runegate.

2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the rune pool management is another story. More GP perspective than RP. your table may vary

IMG an initiate or rune level wishing to recover rune points through a minor holy day rite needs to sponsor such an event, providing sacrifice, food and entertainment to attend a crowd that is willing to stay for hours.

The act of regaining rune points IMG requires ritual purification and intense forms of worship, leaving little room for other holy day service activities. Meditation or similar while the crowd enjoys the fair elements of the service. Although ritual re-enactment of the divine feat that the rune point was spent on or acquired for may provide a limited form of entertainment, too.

Taking on a support role in those re-enactments (strictly this side, IMO) will entitle the participant to choice cuts of the sacrifice or special libations. One reason why I believe that the less well-to-do in a clan are more likely to take on such ritual roles.

[BlindPumpkin]

10 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I think there are some assumptions in there I would like to challenge. 

First off I'm pretty sure that spending the entire day in worship _isnt_ spending the entire day standing around in temple singing or whatever. I think it includes the hobnobing with friends, eating the meal, preparing it as an act of worship, all part of the deal. 

Benefits of worship? For most people attending the worship they are not going to have burnt through rune points every week or so. So no they don't need to spend the entire day on it but likely do spend most of the day on it. It's effectively their day off for the week. Their Holy day. Holiday. 

Again people are thinking about this far far too much like a transactional deal rather than a religious faith and social event. 'If I don't get to turn water into wine myself why should I go to church?' is not an attitude you'd have found much in 19th Century rural Europe/North America. Are we honestly saying we think the Orlanthi farmer is going to say "Ack I've got time in the bank with Himself so I dont need to go" Your looking at worship as some onerous task that must be done to get the goodies rather than the thing that farmer or housewife or hunter looks forward to all week as a day off the hard grind and a chance to catch up with their peers and get the gossip and .....

This is different if there's some crisis or major event going on. But I've known farmers that will allow a crop to sit while in desperate need of harvest because they had to go to church on Sunday even in my lifetime....

In my games Sartarites don't "go to church", the clan IS the church; their culture and way of life itself is already based around their gods and their way of life is already exceedingly social and they demonstrate their devotion by simply living their gods preferred lifestyle. If you believe they should put aside a day every week to be exceptionaly pious, then that is a fine interpretation of minor holy days. In my game I see worship rituals more as exceptional, involved events where worshipers specifically ask for blessings from their gods, and minor holy days as days when rituals are not expected, but welcome by the gods.

Also I don't usually like drawing parallels to abrahamic worship practices, since Glorantha is based on something completely different.

[French Desperate WindChild]

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

This even goes for urban rites. Only metropolitan (Nochet, perhaps even Boldhome) rites may be sufficiently remote from agricultural activities that those come in a purely or at least mainly ritual activity.

Worship of Sartar or Pavis includes road maintenance and/or building projects, and vice versa.

 

Looking at the population numbers for Sartar, those up to 10% "urban" people will include urban farmers and herders. Especially for places like Clearwine or Runegate.

IMG an initiate or rune level wishing to recover rune points through a minor holy day rite needs to sponsor such an event, providing sacrifice, food and entertainment to attend a crowd that is willing to stay for hours.

The act of regaining rune points IMG requires ritual purification and intense forms of worship, leaving little room for other holy day service activities. Meditation or similar while the crowd enjoys the fair elements of the service. Although ritual re-enactment of the divine feat that the rune point was spent on or acquired for may provide a limited form of entertainment, too.

Taking on a support role in those re-enactments (strictly this side, IMO) will entitle the participant to choice cuts of the sacrifice or special libations. One reason why I believe that the less well-to-do in a clan are more likely to take on such ritual roles.

I agree

I just say that player motivation could be GP (rune pool) or RP (devotion, social interaction) but at the end of the day pc have to manage to join or to organize ceremonies

[Thaz]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I did say that doing your religious obligations on those days is a thing, but I also say that attendance to the services held by the priests or the local caretaker of the shrine is optional.

I do think that weekly worship is more or less mandatory, but weekly communal worship is not. The individual is expected to observe religious practices. The individual is not obliged to do so under supervision of the priest - the relationship to one's primary deity is very much a personal affair. Intercession of godtalkers or priests can be helpful, but is not required for the weekly stuff.

The initiate has their personal uplink to the deity. In RQ rules that is the point of POW sacrificed upon initiation into the cult. And yes, that sacrifice gives the initiate a rune point, and further rune points acquired will deepen that uplink.

Weekly services are a different entity, IMO. There will be sacrifice - some lesser routine sacrifice (maybe just some poultry), or sacrifices in order to make a bargain with the deity, asking for a blessing - which may mean prompting the godtalker or priest to take action on behalf of the petitioner and the deity. Summoning a cult spirit, for instance.

The rules talk about 20L for a rune point spent. This sacrifice and creating enough of a crowd for the holy person to regain the rune point spent on behalf of the petitioner in the service is how I interprete such a weekly communal service. Some thing will always come up, and the local poor will be willing to attend for some meat rather than just groats.

In all likelihood, people won't have to ask. Privacy in Heortling society is not much within the household, and the grapevine will carry news faster than a casting of Wind Words can. Gossip will carry these news.

There are plenty of jobs which will take people away from these activities. Often jobs that the community prioritizes over their attendance. Nobody expects the charcoal burner to attend that much while there is a batch of hot coal simmering in the forest. The poor guy will probably wish to come, as his food allowance isn't the best, and will be willing to walk the extra mile just for something substantial into his belly.

The nursing mother is expected to do so during the rites. Especially if it is an Earth rite.

Herders will be absent from the weekly communal rites for much of the year. They will have their private rites in their small communities in the hills, probably taking the various genii locorum as intercessors as they change pasture. While it may be only a few hours brisk hike or cross-country run to their home stead or the clan center (may very well be a few days if they use the high valleys of the Quivin or Storm Mountains or places atop sharp ridges or plateaus), they have an important job to do that they cannot abandon.

In Esrolian society, this is cause for scorn and low reputation as these individuals spend way too much time outside of direct grandmother control. In the freedom-loving society of the former Hendriki clans that make up a significant portion of the Sartarites, this kind of life has quite high reputation, and the consequences are well accepted.

In harvest situations, the rites will be held well before or well after work on the fields or pastures reserved for hay making is done. Someone performing a lengthy sacrifice while the rest of the people sweat cutting, shifting or carrying cut grass will be seen as an idiot - a selfish and self-centered person, unless the sacrifice deals with even more urgent stuff (like life-and-death health concerns).

Clans have quite variant settlement structures. The neighbors of the Telmori will have rather fortified steads, and their herders may have hurdles for their beasts over night with defenses like thorny hedges, nasty spikes etc. creating a defensive bonus. Less organized wild beasts or dragonewt neighbours ask for a mobile response rather than fortification.

Looking at hamlets like the one in The Rattling Wind, I don't have the impression that these folk mingle much with the people in Fairjowl (the central settlement of the Antorlings) outside of clan festivals. The lack of fortification may be a reaction to having dragonewts as neigbours - trying to keep them out may cause more problems than them wandering through the hamlet and picking up an occasional chicken or similar.

That hamlet may have a small spot for communal worship, but not enough for an actual shrine as per RQG rules. Like with the herders, that may be different if they have the aid of a local minor deity or spirit associated with the cult taking over much of the role a godtalker or priest would take, with a local initiate acting as intercessor with such an entity. By inviting in "wild" worshipers, the congregation might actually get enough magic for an actual worship service ever now and then, with actual sacrifice beyond what you describe as pot luck below.

As per RQG, hamlets of less than 50 people (including some surrounding outlier cottages) have no business maintaining a permanent shrine. Their acts of devotion at an actual shrine will have to be done via votive figurines etc. most of the time, something alluded in the RQG rules.

There will be weekly pious acts. How much of that will be in the shape of a service, or in the shape of a private sacrifice, is a different question.

And yes, I think discussing this is a good exercise to explore the mindset of this "Bronze Age" culture.

The necessary preparation time for this act of cooking will make a communal activity last for a couple of hours. You don't start your service with hacking off a few chicken heads and hanging them to bleed out before even having a communal invocation, ritual (and very mundane) cleansing observances, etc.

As is meeting up in the drinking hall or the steam bath after sunset. The Romans managed to make the visit of the lavatory a social interaction...

They replace birthday parties or visits to the cinema, theatre, concert, whatever.

One aspect of those weekly meetings is training for the big events - ritual dance instruction, getting the costumes and masks into shape, memorizing the words or the tunes. All of these are quite social activities.

All of these take up a lot of time, and the demands of the agricultural year tops the ritual demands (to the extent that the ritual demands within sowing, irrigation or harvesting time will involve work in the fields or ditches. Ritual as well as practical.

Many many excellent points here.

I do think looking at how very remote steadings (which I dont think are that common, it IS a dangerous place) and transient populations worship is really interesting. I think one answer maybe ancestor worship by these remote or transient types. By bringing in the dead as part of worship you get a numbers boost.  

I also think that some gods cults may be set up to cater to this. Sanctify isn't just there for players. God talkers and holy people/shaman exist in the community. So when the herds are taken up to the high pastures (as the Grazelanders make extensive use of and also sheep herders and cattle herds in Orlanthi culture) some of these will go with. I would expect the high mountain camps of both peoples to conduct worship regularly. Sky and Storm gods all love the high places and portable or regularly established high altitude camps for the herders may well have shrines. A fair chunk of the community will be spending it's time out of the lowlands for Fire/Earth seasons at least. Maybe Sea Season as well?

[Joerg]

13 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I do think looking at how very remote steadings (which I dont think are that common, it IS a dangerous place) and transient populations worship is really interesting. I think one answer maybe ancestor worship by these remote or transient types. By bringing in the dead as part of worship you get a numbers boost.  

Given the newly available detail maps for parts of Sartar and for some hamlets, unfortified small settlements seem to dot the landscape.

The danger of the place is relative. Like I said above, neighbours of the Telmori are more likely to wall up than neighbours of dragonewts. Wild beasts like the first adversaries in the Varmandi scenario in the Colymar Adventure Book are fairly rare, and a major event The adversaries in the Apple Lane scenario or the inevitable outlaw bands are another problem. 

But then, out of the way steads make for excellent scenario locations and drama. You find them everywhere - famously e.g. Asborn's stead in Annmagarn/Hiording parts of the Colymar Wilds, or Alebard's Tower, or a certain shamaness' cave southeast of Pegasus Plateau.

Isolated steads have economic advantages that balance social disadvantages, and for some families, isolation is a social advantage.

Hunter families with a minor farm managed by the non-hunter portion of the family are better located away from the main settlement. Fertile spots too far from the main village can be farmed by a smaller steading or hamlet. The more remote, the less competition for the place inside the clan, allowing a farmer descended from a rather poor family to gain economic liberty it couldn't achieve staying in the tenant's plot.

Cat witches don't do too well in the center of a village. Some distance and access to nearby herders may be a better set-up than bearing with all the slander and gossip in town.

 

Bringing in your ancestors is one way to "cheat" the permanent shrine requirements, bringing in local minor divinities and their entourage is another. You might have quite unlikely allies in your earth rites and defense if you live in an isolated clearing of a forest. Pixies and possibly even runners may attend your weekly sacrifices, also for the foodstuff you bring.

 

13 minutes ago, Thaz said:

I also think that some gods cults may be set up to cater to this. Sanctify isn't just there for players. God talkers and holy people/shaman exist in the community. So when the herds are taken up to the high pastures (as the Grazelanders make extensive use of and also sheep herders and cattle herds in Orlanthi culture) some of these will go with. I would expect the high mountain camps of both peoples to conduct worship regularly. Sky and Storm gods all love the high places and portable or regularly established high altitude camps for the herders may well have shrines.

Orlanth cultists among the herders have the sacred hilltops, yes. Heler cultists can enter the clouds for their rites, or possibly walk on or swim them.

Sun worshipers may make use of the horse herds, and involve the stallion or the dominant mare of their herd as participants in their solar rites. And possibly birds.

13 minutes ago, Thaz said:

A fair chunk of the community will be spending it's time out of the lowlands for Fire/Earth seasons at least. Maybe Sea Season as well?

There are other distant pursuits for a clan - resource-gathering panning for metal, digging for gems or high-quality clay, cutting specially-grown branches for purpose carpentry (or barrels, or arrows and javelins, or collecting bast for ropes and seams, or simply for basket-making), collecting truffles, gathering nuts for winter fodder (acorns, beechnuts, chestnuts, hazel), collecting mushrooms, flowers, herbs, roots in the wild for all manner of purposes (medical, flavour, dyeing, scents).

It would be interesting to know the exact duties and tithes of tenant farmers. How many side jobs can they get away with?

[Thaz]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There are other distant pursuits for a clan - resource-gathering panning for metal, digging for gems or high-quality clay, cutting specially-grown branches for purpose carpentry (or barrels, or arrows and javelins, or collecting bast for ropes and seams, or simply for basket-making), collecting truffles, gathering nuts for winter fodder (acorns, beechnuts, chestnuts, hazel), collecting mushrooms, flowers, herbs, roots in the wild for all manner of purposes (medical, flavour, dyeing, scents).

It would be interesting to know the exact duties and tithes of tenant farmers. How many side jobs can they get away with?

I think of the Orlanthi as much more like Scottish Crofters than tenant farmers. They do rent the land. But it comes with certain rights and traditions that go both ways and access to common land. So "Your" sheep and cows are out with the clan herd, possibly you spend some time herding/shepherding or maybe your brother or son or daughter does. And you plough. And You help with harvest. And you gather nuts. And you hunt a bit. And some people craft some and do these other things as well.  And today maybe you'll go gather acorns or hunt in the woods. Or do some weeding. Or make a spear. or you might not. This lack of specialism makes Orianthi very adaptable but it frustrated the heck out of Lunars who wanted to maximise production not freedom. 

 

[Kloster]

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

How many side jobs can they get away with?

A lot. I had some 20 years ago some people in my family that lived that way, farming, cutting wood (for money, for carpentry and furniture, ...), collecting herbs and mushrooms, hunting, making their bread, and sometime even working in a steel factory (to pay for salt, coffee, oil and ammunition mainly).

Edited June 12, 2020 by Kloster
typing mistake

[Thaz]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

A lot. I had some 20 years ago some people in my family that lived that way, farming, cutting wood (for money, for carpentry and furniture, ...), collecting herbs and mushrooms, hunting, making their bread, and sometime even working in a steel factory (to pay for salt, coffee, oil and ammunition mainly).

Very traditional lifestyle based on Crofting. My Father made his living more or less this was till about 2000. I'm sorta hedging back to it currently as is he to supplement his retirement. An aside but as I see it very much the independent Oralanthi lifestyle which as a lot of personal freedom still mixed with Clan obligations. 

[Ultor]

7 hours ago, Kloster said:

Remove the 1 adventure per season, and replace it by 3 weeks of extraordinary activities per season. This solve several problems: The one you noticed and the very short duration adventures. It also force players (and the GM) to plan the longer adventures.

I've been tending towards something like this. I suspect that it'll involve something like an En Garde order sheet for activities like training and research as well.

[Kloster]

5 hours ago, Ultor said:

I suspect that it'll involve something like an En Garde order sheet for activities like training and research as well.

Good idea.

[GAZZA]

19 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

The skill check is done if there is a "crisis". If you worship just to worship (or to replenish rune pools) I consider it is not a crisis :

you have 95% effective and it is just a standard ceremony => no xp check

you have only 5% at effective, you don't want to show your clan how weak you are, it is a crisis => xp check

you have 95% effective and the ceremony is done to save the clan / family / heroquest => xp check

Remember that with occupational xp, you can increase your worship skill even without xp check

Well, as far as the crisis is concerned, given that the likely only times you're making Worship rolls is to regain RP, I would consider it a bit harsh not to allow a check for that.

For the rest, you seem to be implying that if I boost my skill by 90%, I don't get the check. OK, what about by 80? By 50? By 5? By 1? What happens if my skill is normally 85, and I boost it by 10 with an MP? Compare that to if my skill is normally 5, and I boost it with an MP? In the first case I moderately increased my chance of success, in the latter I tripled it. Do we award a check in one case and not the other?

Worship is only the most obvious example, of course. Basically any skill roll that has a bonus or penalty comes under scrutiny. IMG I say if you succeed at the modified skill roll, you get a check; that means if there was a penalty and your roll would have succeeded without it, tough, but if you can find a creative way to get a one time bonus and succeed only with that bonus, good for you. Mostly because it's too much mucking about to try and keep track otherwise. It probably results in a bit of skill inflation, but honestly getting to Rune status before aging penalties is tough with RAW, so I already have plenty of skill inflation house rules anyway.

[Thaz]

I tend to Skill check if it was really important if you make it. Meditation roll every morning for an hour. no check. Meditating on a tricky riddle you only get one more go at before the final answer is given and the result of a fail will be death at the hands of the sphinx.....skill check. 

Likewise I think Worship is tricky. Roll boosted to 100% after a adventure but no threat and an entire season with no bg issues...probably not. The evening before a battle and your currently on empty...yeah...even though boosted. 

Also note that Worship is a Cult skill and so can go up from occupation/cult skill checks

[BlindPumpkin]

I've been thinking about this and rereading the rules on holy days and worship rituals. I think I'd go with RQG RAW  when determining what consists as a holy day. The book makes it pretty clear that a worship ritual is intended to be an involved, day-long affair, lead by a rune priest or god-talker at a shrine or temple. This is clear both in the description of worship rites, and in the explicit example of an adventurer regaining her rune points during a holy day. The book further states that holy idols stay safely hidden away from public view "most of the year" and is only taken out and displayed during worship rituals, which seems to imply that weekly rituals are not the expected norm for most cults.

Now I'd argue the frequency of such rites varies greatly from deity to deity, obviously. The book explicitly states Clayday as being a minor holy day for Ernalda (and I believe she is the only deity with a weekly holy day in the rulebook) so it is possible that some or many or all settlements with Ernalda worshipers would hold weekly rituals, but no weekly holy day is given to Orlanth. I believe this works especially well when taking game balance into consideration: Non-adventuring worshipers of Ernalda would have rune spells related to blessing their crops, maintaining healthy pregnancies, dealing with livestock, etc. They would be praying for good blessings and favors frequently in those areas, as those are their daily activities. Orlanthi magic is almost entirely focused on battle and warfare, and that is powerful magic indeed. No one is going to be munchking their way around this- there is no way to regain Orlanth rune points weekly if we follow holy days by RAW: Orlanth has no established weekly holy days, and participating in Ernalda rituals only regains Orlanth rune points during High and Seasonal Holy Day rites.

Of course this is all easily ignorable, and if you want to give weekly minor holy days for other deities in the core book then for all intents and purposes go ahead, just keep in mind the rules implications of changing such things and it should be fine.

[Rob Darvall]

7 hours ago, BlindPumpkin said:

there is no way to regain Orlanth rune points weekly if we follow holy days by RAW: Orlanth has no established weekly holy days, and participating in Ernalda rituals only regains Orlanth rune points during High and Seasonal Holy Day rites.

Which works to put time pressure on the party. They have adventured. Now they have to bolt back to the nearest shrine to recover the RP they expended. Or they have to keep enough RP in reserve to create their own temporary shrine and worship ceremony. Which means they discover WHY worship is communal and Priests are serious players in the world.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 6/11/2020 at 8:54 AM, Joerg said:

Let's say we take the piglet Vasana and Yanioth offer. (And look at Yanioth's choice of clothing, or lack thereof, for the bloody rite...)

After the ritual bleeding, you will want to let it hang a little longer, and then you may disembowel and spit it, apply some herbs and salt, and maybe roast it, or you chop it up and create a strong broth from it. Either way, this will take a while, so if you came here to get some better food, you'll have to endure some more service (unless you already volunteered for cooking service).

Likewise, the priesthood will have an idea how long it takes to transform a holy sacrifice into a palatable meal, and they will shrewdly have adjusted their ceremony to make the best out of that time.

A piglet for fifty will be no more than a few mouthful per person. A feast if all you can afford is thin gruel, but everyday food for a free household.

If the barbecue is already lit, then skewer the chunks of meat and proceed to cook shish-kabob.  Smaller chunks will cook faster.  On a hot fire the meat will be ready when the sermon is done if you don't scamp the rite.   This makes me want to fire up my BBQ and time the task.

This does imply that a team is ideal:  the presiding priest (or initiate if no priest is present) to kill the sacrifice and preach the sermon.  And a couple of initiates to do the butchering and cooking.  Maybe another initiate or lay member to serve the pieces of meat.  If there is a big animal or few  worshippers everyone gets a skewer, otherwise everyone gets a chunk or two.  Even a rabbit will give many bites.   As Joerg indicates, even a couple of bites is good if you spent the week eating mush and gruel.

I do recall that sacrifices don't have to be an animal.  They can be wine or beer.  I suggest a libation to the altar, then the assembled worshipers get the rest, perhaps the celebrating priest first.  BBQ goes well with a beer. 

Sacrifices can also be valuable objects (see RQG  p.316-317).   I suggest that burning or melting will be the method of sacrifice.  However  this type of sacrifice won't fill the stomachs of the congregation.   What do you think happens to  objects as offerings, for a GM's description of the event?

 

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