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Peace between the Red Moon and Orlanth


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On 6/12/2020 at 6:02 PM, Elcid321 said:

Hi everyone, i'm here asking a few questions that came to my head.

1.- would it be possible for orlanth and the red moon to find peace? and how?

2.- what would be the effects in the world if peace was managed?

now, this question came to me after reading some adventure or campaign idea that i found in 4chan /tg/, that is about an orlanthi warrior and a red moon priestess that fell in love (like romeo and juliet), and initially they are running away from the war, trying to find someplace to live in peace, but after sometime, they decide to do a heroquest so that Sedenya and Orlanth married, thus, maybe putting an end to their conflict.

so, i was curious if any of this is possible, how it would be acheived, and what would be the effects on the setting, specifically the example that i wrote.

sorry for the bad english.

A single hero quest will not remake the world.  Both Sedenya and Orlanth have multiple spouses in any case.  Peace between the two sides is pretty much impossible.  Orlanthi will never tolerate a deity made after time that worships chaos.  That is another manifestation of Wakboth to them, and a breach of the Compromise.  Similarly, the Lunars are not about to stop until they have conquered all of Glorantha and filled everyone's heads with irreconcilable 1984-style contradictions masquerading as enlightenment.

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Orlanth: "Chaos is utterly antithetical to existence. So the Gods made a Great Compromise to bind Chaos into its place within the world of Glorantha, creating the new world of Time." Sedenya: "Chao

The way I understood it was like this: Think of a hand fan,  The guard at one end is KoS, the guard at the other end is the never written Lunar book.  Both of them leave the world in a

There is actually a part of the empire where Orlanthi and the Red Moon coexist peacefully; Riskland, the border between Dorastor and the Empire. The Emperor promised Orlanthi they could live in peace

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44 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Peace between the two sides is pretty much impossible.  Orlanthi will never tolerate a deity made after time that worships chaos.  That is another manifestation of Wakboth to them, and a breach of the Compromise.

Always remember that Darius is an extremist, who ignores swathes of known facts about Glorantha every time he makes one of his sweeping statements. He seems to operate in a full-on "No True Scotsman" mode, in which the only true Scotsman left standing after the dust settles will be him. (A bit like Argrath, maybe?)

I like your story, @Elcid321. Keep working on it!

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On 6/17/2020 at 6:56 PM, Crel said:

Perhaps this reaction to the canon is intentional? 

At least at one time, indeed so. Hopefully still now.  If your  player doesn't like the future in KoS (and I certainly don't) then it is up to them to make a different future.  Remember, at least when it was written, KoS was not meant to be the 'canoncial', this is the way the world goes, future.

You want peace between Orlanth and the Red Goddess? People in this thread have given ideas, maybe some of them work for you. You think it can't happen? Well, that's the way you tell your stories.  In the end we all make our own stories. YGMV.  Just don't tell me something I want to do in my Glorantha is impossible. You can say 'against canon' but I've said what I think KoS  is (just to be clear - it's what happens in an Orlanthi victory if there are no PCs).

Although, in my stories, anyone who supports Sheng is going to find themselves on the losing side.

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1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

Always remember that Darius is an extremist, who ignores swathes of known facts about Glorantha every time he makes one of his sweeping statements. He seems to operate in a full-on "No True Scotsman" mode, in which the only true Scotsman left standing after the dust settles will be him. (A bit like Argrath, maybe?)

I like your story, @Elcid321. Keep working on it!

We both know that Illuminated Master is a synonym for Lunar Simp.:P

Illumination is just a racist misinterpretation of Zen Buddhism.

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HA! This thread was entertaining.

I come down fully on the side of Nuke Orlanth from Orbit and paint the whole northern continent red...but the setting is more interesting with both contradictory societies existing in opposition to one another. Both cultures have enviable traits and both cultures are nightmarishly backward in some respects.

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12 hours ago, tedopon said:

HA! This thread was entertaining.

I come down fully on the side of Nuke Orlanth from Orbit and paint the whole northern continent red...but the setting is more interesting with both contradictory societies existing in opposition to one another. Both cultures have enviable traits and both cultures are nightmarishly backward in some respects.

I often think that the Crimson Bat exists to remind everyone that the Lunars aren't the good guys - because they have so many appealing features if you lose sight of the things like the Bat.

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1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

I often think that the Crimson Bat exists to remind everyone that the Lunars aren't the good guys - because they have so many appealing features if you lose sight of the things like the Bat.

Because policies like the forced relocations of entire populations when they object to the whole "being conquered" thing and such just isn't enough when it isn't happening right there in Dragon Pass, I suppose.

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1 hour ago, Leingod said:

Because policies like the forced relocations of entire populations when they object to the whole "being conquered" thing and such just isn't enough when it isn't happening right there in Dragon Pass, I suppose.

This being the nature of empire it's not restricted to the Lunars.
That said, the opposite seems just as bad. The times of greatest peace, stability, and prosperity are under strong empires. (NB this is not to say EVERYONE got peace etc, just a greater proportion).

For my money these conflicts are an important part of the Gloranthan dichotomies. 'We are all us'/ 'no one can make you do anything' and we'll kill you to make you recognise that.

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53 minutes ago, Rob Darvall said:

This being the nature of empire it's not restricted to the Lunars.
That said, the opposite seems just as bad. The times of greatest peace, stability, and prosperity are under strong empires. (NB this is not to say EVERYONE got peace etc, just a greater proportion).

1. Hence "empires are bad" being something I'd consider an entirely valid argument.

2. Sartar was doing a pretty good job of building cities and roads, minting its own coins, and engaging in trade without needing to be the possession of an empire, so to argue that the slaughters at Boldhome and Runegate, for example, are justified or at least ameliorated because that means more money for the Sartarites in the long run... eh. I'm not convinced. Most of Sartar seemed to be doing just fine for itself, and the argument that it was for their own good that they be conquered and forcibly assimilated is getting perilously close to "White Red Man's Burden" rhetoric.

3. As to the argument elsewhere that Argrath's empire was worse than the Lunar one and that they were thus the ones in the right or at least less in the wrong, while that's not entirely wrong, IMO there's something important in the fact that Argrath and his empire were, in many ways, created by the actions and policies the Lunar Empire pursued in Dragon Pass. That's not to say the Lunars are somehow directly responsible for the actions and policies of Argrath's empire, but I think it's important to realize those (and the anti-Lunar sentiment a lot of them arose from) didn't emerge out of a vacuum.

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3 minutes ago, Leingod said:

3. As to the argument elsewhere that Argrath's empire was worse than the Lunar one and that they were thus the ones in the right or at least less in the wrong, while that's not entirely wrong, IMO there's something important in the fact that Argrath and his empire were, in many ways, created by the actions and policies the Lunar Empire pursued in Dragon Pass. That's not to say the Lunars are somehow directly responsible for the actions and policies of Argrath's empire, but I think it's important to realize those (and the anti-Lunar sentiment a lot of them arose from) didn't emerge out of a vacuum.

Empires beget Empires.  Argrath's Empire was a response to the Lunars, which were a response to the Carmanians, which were a response to Spol, which was a response to Nysalor & Dara Happa, etc, etc, etc.

 

This has all happened before and it will all happen again. 😟

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Just now, Nevermet said:

This has all happened before and it will all happen again. 😟

That's the likely outcome. But it's important to remember that "There is always another way," especially when PCs get involved.

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5 minutes ago, Leingod said:

 perilously close to "White Red Man's Burden" rhetoric.

 

 

Re: Various persons burden rhetoric. This generalisation about empires and stability has been made for everything from Hamurabi onward. The examples I have seen are mostly drawn from research into the Mongol Empire. How the Mongols managed the white man's burden I have yet to discover.

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1 hour ago, Rob Darvall said:

 

Re: Various persons burden rhetoric. This generalisation about empires and stability has been made for everything from Hamurabi onward. The examples I have seen are mostly drawn from research into the Mongol Empire. How the Mongols managed the white man's burden I have yet to discover.

The Mongol version of the White Man's burden is the necessity of generating as many corpses and burnt out ruined cities as possible.

They contemplated genociding all of China to use it as pasture, but got talked out of it.

***********

I don't think Argath's trail of destruction is due to him being an emperor, though.  Argath's central goal isn't to create some lasting kingdom, it's to kill the Red Goddess and destroy the Lunar Empire.  He's an Arkat-style monomaniac.  Anything state-like is a way to get power to destroy the Lunars/Red goddess.  If there was a button and it would destroy the Lunar Empire and the Red Goddess without him having to rule anything, he'd hit it.  But since there is no easy button, he builds up power, but after him, the Deluge.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Ahem. The Deluge happens during his reign.

Also, "He let the Ice come, because it suited him."

The Metaphorical deluge (It's a Louis XIV reference).

And to be fair, the deluge you mention isn't his fault, assuming it's the one triggered by the Trolls.

 

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There is actually a part of the empire where Orlanthi and the Red Moon coexist peacefully; Riskland, the border between Dorastor and the Empire. The Emperor promised Orlanthi they could live in peace in Riskland, subject to his rule, so Orlanthi who accept the Emperor's offer take the brunt of fighting whatever chaotic horrors sometimes emerge from Dorastor.

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