Clarifying Spirit Binding and POW storing crystals

[claycle]

I searched for and found another thread related to this topic, but it was almost a year old. I just want to clarify and make sure I understand the interactions between "regular" spirit binding (RQG p249) and POW storing crystals (GM Adventure Book p121).

1. POW storing crystals may be used to either store magic points or store a spirit. The owner may select what the crystal is storing (magic or spirit) and change it.
2. POW storing crystals are natural objects, not created via enchantments, but through mythic processes (dead gods).
3. To store magic points, the user must only concentrate (like casting a spell) to inject the desired magic into the crystal.
4. To store a spirit, the user must use either Spirit Binding or an appropriate Command [Spirit] spell to force the spirit into the crystal.
5. Unlike normal binding enchantments (RQG p249) which may allow the user to use the spells and knowledge (but not magic points) of the bound spirit while it still remains within the binding enchantment [the rules fuzzy here], the spirit within a POW storage crystal can only provide magic points to the user, not cast spells or provide any useful intelligence (GMAB p122) while it remains within the crystal, although the user may release the spirit to perform one action (and depart) or use a Command spell to order it to perform several actions and return to the crystal (just like a normal binding enchantment).
6. Spirits in normal binding enchantments and POW storage crystals count against the users CHA limits for bound entities and all such entities are released when the user dies.

Edited June 12, 2020 by claycle

[Psullie]

RQG p366 adds: "The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells."

So I'd say you good with 1-4 & 6. With 5, the binder has access to spells and MP. If you want the spirit to cast spells or use it's powers, it must be released followed by a control spell.

[Joerg]

17 minutes ago, Psullie said:

RQG p366 adds: "The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells."

So I'd say you good with 1-4 & 6. With 5, the binder has access to spells and MP. If you want the spirit to cast spells or use it's powers, it must be released followed by a control spell.

The established sequence for releasing a bound spirit and then commanding it back is to use the Command, Control or Dominate spell on the creature in the binding. That way it has no resistance against the spell, and for the duration of the spell the caster of said spell can change the command, including a last minute "return to your binding".

If you release your spirit first and then cast your spell to return it, you need to overcome its POW with your own. For the Control Spirit Magic, that requires you to beat it down to zero MP in spirit combat, which requires you to discorporate or otherwise initiate and maintain spirit combat. Rune Magic and sorcery need to overcome the POW of the spirit, Rune Magic with the POW of the caster, sorcery with the MP in the Dominate spell. While the Rune Magic command can earn you a POW check, you risk to lose hold over your spirit (elemental, whatever).

 

One thing that came up (again) in a game this week is how to call your cult spirit elemental into action using the rules as written. (There are ways to house-rule a precedent quite easily, but you'll need to communicate that house rule every time you play with a new set of players. And it won't be the only one.)

Summon Cult Spirit can call it in from the other side, allowing you to place it anywhere within sight/150 meters (whichever is less). Only that leaves it without any command what to do (like who to attack), and you may already have spent up to 3 rune points calling it forth. To give it combat instructions requires a Command Cult Spirit rune spell (or some other such magic applicable to the type of the spirit), to overcome its POW with yours (why not your CHA?), for another 2 rune points. And as you can only cast a single rune spell in a melee round, you can't really trap a moving adversary in your Large Earth Elemental unless you have a very good idea where the adversary will be at the end of the next melee round.

What you can do with the rules as written is have one character summon the entity and another character of the same cult commanding it in the same melee round. The Earth elemental may start to manifest at SR1, but it can attack only at SR 12, meaning you'll have to predict the trajectory of an unengaged adversary for that melee round.

It isn't quite clear where an elemental that you release from a binding object like a crystal will manifest. Does it have to manifest in the location of the binding object, or can it reach out to a sufficient amount of element within (what?) reach?

Sorcerers releasing an elemental from a binding can do so easily as fast as rune or spirit magicians. A single intensity is sufficient to affect the entity inside the binding, and additional points can be put into duration if you think it will last long enough to be of service later on. With a spell SR of 2 or 3 the sorcerer can use up to 5 MP and still have the elemental attacking on SR 12.

 

Oh, and one clarification, please: are cult spirit elementals bound to that cult only, or could a Yelmalian use his Yelmalian Command Cult Spirit to control a fire elemental summoned by a Seven Mothers cultist? Does this spell have authority over spirits provided by this cult, or does it give you the ability to command any spirit of that type regardless of its cultic affiliation?

[claycle]

1 hour ago, Psullie said:

RQG p366 adds: "The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells."

So I'd say you good with 1-4 & 6. With 5, the binder has access to spells and MP. If you want the spirit to cast spells or use it's powers, it must be released followed by a control spell.

I think this must be where POW storing crystals and binding enchantments differ, because the POW storing rules (as written) does not explicitly state that the user can access the abilities or knowledge of the contained spirit. It explicitly states that the user may access the magic points and that the spirit, if released from the binding via the loss of control, cannot use it spells of abilities "itself" (a problematic word).

 

I think it is implicit that the user may release (and Control) the spirit from the POW storing crystal, as per the rules for spirit binding (RQG p249). I am not so sure that the user may implicitly access the spirit spells and knowledge without first releasing it. Are we to assueme that the user may also access the spirit's spells (although this is not stated in the RAW for POW storage crystals, because in RAW only magic points may be accessed), since this is something that described as being possible with a "normal" binding enchantment?

 

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

46 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Sorcerers releasing an elemental from a binding can do so easily as fast as rune or spirit magicians. A single intensity is sufficient to affect the entity inside the binding, and additional points can be put into duration if you think it will last long enough to be of service later on. With a spell SR of 2 or 3 the sorcerer can use up to 5 MP and still have the elemental attacking on SR 12.

IIRC all sorcery spells take a minimum of 1 round plus 2 SR per MP spent in a spell after the first. So, even a single point to effect a creature in a binding wouldn't go off until SR 1 or SR 3 of the next round at the very fastest. 

[Joerg]

50 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

IIRC all sorcery spells take a minimum of 1 round plus 2 SR per MP spent in a spell after the first. So, even a single point to effect a creature in a binding wouldn't go off until SR 1 or SR 3 of the next round at the very fastest. 

Right, forgot about that. But then, a well-prepared sorcerer could have cast the Dominate spell weeks ago with good duration, and just need to utter the command.

Still takes until the end of that melee round for the elemental to attack.

 

I'd still appreciate opinions, house rules or an official ruling on where exactly such a bound and released elemental would form. Does the binding object need to touch the bunch of element?

And do your summoned cult spirits require the command rune spell to do what the cultist wants them to do after summoning them?

[Psullie]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

The established sequence for releasing a bound spirit and then commanding it back is to use the Command, Control or Dominate spell on the creature in the binding. That way it has no resistance against the spell, and for the duration of the spell the caster of said spell can change the command, including a last minute "return to your binding".

Yes of course, thanks