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Are there tribes in Pavis area?


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There are defined clans in Pavis GTA (and earlier) products:

Dorosar Clan, destroyed by the Lunars, but hopefully an heir will reappear to form it.

Left, there there is the Garhound, Bullford and Althimandi clans and a few other minor clans.

As @metcalph said treat the riverfolk and old Pavis families as non-sartarite clans.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, David Scott said:

There are defined clans in Pavis GTA (and earlier) products:

Dorosar Clan, destroyed by the Lunars, but hopefully an heir will reappear to form it.

Left, there there is the Garhound, Bullford and Althimandi clans and a few other minor clans.

As @metcalph said treat the riverfolk and old Pavis families as non-sartarite clans.

You mean Dorasar Tribe? And are the citizens of Pavis also clanmembers?

Edited by Brootse
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8 minutes ago, Brootse said:

You Dorasar Tribe? And are the citizens of Pavis also clanmembers?

No tribes in Pavis area.  Just the three Sartarite clans in Pavis county.  Garhound clan has folk living in Pavis.  The Ingilli, Eiskolli, and Indagos (IIRC) would all be non-Sartarite clans as David noted similar to other Oasis folk.  Those clan members residing in Pavis will likely have Loyalty (clan) and Loyalty (Pavis).

The Patroma are a Lunar family (part of some larger Lunar/DH family) who nominally "lead" or take tribute from varied folk who've come from the Lunar Empire (Borderlands noted folk from the Redlands, Carmania, and Talastar as settling either in the Grantlands under Duke Raus or in Pavis).

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The way I imagine how a Sartarite mindset would see/equate it in their mind is that Pavis County is their "tribe." The actual ruling council of Pavis is the tribal ring, since they fulfill much the same duty that an actual tribe would fulfill, mediating conflicts between different clans and giving them all a voice and so on.

So instead of Loyalty (Tribe), a Pavisite would have Loyalty (Pavis) instead.

Edited by Leingod
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Posted (edited)
On 6/17/2020 at 6:23 AM, Leingod said:

The way I imagine how a Sartarite mindset would see/equate it in their mind is that Pavis County is their "tribe." The actual ruling council of Pavis is the tribal ring, since they fulfill much the same duty that an actual tribe would fulfill, mediating conflicts between different clans and giving them all a voice and so on.

So instead of Loyalty (Tribe), a Pavisite would have Loyalty (Pavis) instead.

I'm not sure about this. Iirc they only decided on stuff happening in the city and Badside. There was an Orlanthi high priest in the city, but I doubt that he was an Orlanth Rex member like the kingly high priests in Sartar.

Edited by Brootse
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On 6/17/2020 at 4:23 AM, Leingod said:

The actual ruling council of Pavis is the tribal ring, since they fulfill much the same duty that an actual tribe would fulfill, mediating conflicts between different clans and giving them all a voice and so on.

This is all covered in Pavis GtA (along with all the politics), the actual ruling council is not a tribal ring, but the Pavis city council, made up of

Quote

The ruling clans, guilds, and high priests of the leading temples appoint the thirteen members of the council,

These 13 in 1621 are

the High Priest of Pavis,

the Mayor of New Pavis (Cloth and Leatherworkers Guild)

High Priestess of Ernalda

a humakti loyal to the Lunar governor

Ginkizzie, leader of Dwarftown (appointed to the city council by Duke Dorasar.)

High Priest of the Knowledge Temple

An Ingilli family head (riverfolk)

Priestess of Irrippi Ontor

Chief of the Indagos clan.

Chief of the Redsmith guild

a Priest of Yelmalio.

an Issaries Priest

High Priestess of Chalana Arroy

Previously (up to 1472 it had Praxian members too).

In 1625 I imagine little will have changed, except lunar factions would have been replaced, the humakti and irrippi ontor priest replace by others. I imagine that Argrath as King of Pavis maintains the council do keep everything working smoothly. I'm sure one o the replacements would be an Orlanth/white bull priest and I suspect that he will have restored a Praxian to the council again.

On 6/17/2020 at 4:23 AM, Leingod said:

So instead of Loyalty (Tribe), a Pavisite would have Loyalty (Pavis) instead.

I think Loyalty (clan) is much more important, Loyalty (New Pavis) is a bit different (There are two different kinds of Pavisite - old and new.) That's something a council member would have. In 1625, it would also have Loyalty (King of Pavis).

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56 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Is Pavis Half-elf the wyter of the city, or is there a proper cult about him in RQG?

Not as yet. Although it might be in the Gods or Pavis books which are in the pipeline. 

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52 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Is Pavis Half-elf the wyter of the city, or is there a proper cult about him in RQG?

There's likely a Wyter for New Pavis, Dorosar was a Sartarite after all. I'm pretty sure it's not Pavis himself. Given how the city was built with cooperation from all groups (see above), it's likely the Wyter is made up of lots of different parts brought together. See Pavis GtA page 44 for the building of New Pavis.

Old Pavis clearly has no Wyter due to its ravaged history, however the refuges likely do. The New City likely has Pavis himself as protector.

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My players are in the process of unifying the Rubble to provide the basis for the expulsion of the Lunars. The newly-crowned Queen has appointed a Ring and Seal that includes her loyalists (including half the Pavis priesthood), the Survivors/Royal Guard, Orlanthi like Garrath, the Flintnail Dwarves, and representatives of the enclaves, and is in the process of securing delegates from The Garden and the Troll clans. Keeping them from squabbling and the whole effort from falling apart is going to be fun.

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3 hours ago, Brootse said:

I'm not sure about this. Iirc they only decided on stuff happening in the city and Badside. There was an Orlanthi high priest in the city, but I doubt that he was a Orlanth Rex member like the kingly high priests in Sartar.

 

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

This is all covered in Pavis GtA (along with all the politics), the actual ruling council is not a tribal ring, but the Pavis city council, made up of

Notice I didn't say "Pavis County is a tribe and its council is a tribal ring," I said "The Sartarite settlers living there probably see it as 'close enough,' in that it does most of the same things, that there isn't really a reason for them to form a tribe. So you wouldn't have Loyalty (Tribe) in Pavis, but Loyalty (City)."

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

There's likely a Wyter for New Pavis, Dorosar was a Sartarite after all. I'm pretty sure it's not Pavis himself. Given how the city was built with cooperation from all groups (see above), it's likely the Wyter is made up of lots of different parts brought together. See Pavis GtA page 44 for the building of New Pavis.

Old Pavis clearly has no Wyter due to its ravaged history, however the refuges likely do. The New City likely has Pavis himself as protector.

Pavis: Gateway to Adventure says that the wyter for both Old and New Pavis (which are considered "the same" city magically to allow this, with New Pavis being referred to as "Pavis Outside the Walls" as a sort of extension of the original city) is in fact Lord Pavis himself.

Edited by Leingod
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On 6/17/2020 at 5:23 AM, Leingod said:

The way I imagine how a Sartarite mindset would see/equate it in their mind is that Pavis County is their "tribe." The actual ruling council of Pavis is the tribal ring, since they fulfill much the same duty that an actual tribe would fulfill, mediating conflicts between different clans and giving them all a voice and so on.

So instead of Loyalty (Tribe), a Pavisite would have Loyalty (Pavis) instead.

I’m not sure whether the clans accept any Orlanthi superiors following the Lunar occupation, although I’m sure they sometimes work together.

Their stance re: Pavis might be more like local clans towards the towns in Sartar. They don’t wield authority over you.

Following Argrath’s conquest, who knows, though?

Edited by Akhôrahil
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6 hours ago, Brootse said:

Is Pavis Half-elf the wyter of the city, or is there a proper cult about him in RQG?

He’s a full city god (although a weird one), but the cult will probably only come in the Pavis book.

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Based on the revelations of the HQ rules, there are a lot of questions we need to ask about Pavis.  I can seriously think of few more equivocal characters in RQ except perhaps Belintar.  For example, is Pavis even really a god, or is his cult simply a school of sorcery, or a bit of column A and a bit of column B?  And who the hell was Iffinbix in this picture?  Quite apart from the Green Age conspiracy element, the whole chaos element in Pavis is quite weird and disturbing too.  For example, given that Pavis is quite probably one of the few people who actually knew Delecti before he was a vampire, is it just happenstance that the Rubble is filled with vampires?  Then there is the issue that Pavis was founded with connivance by the EWF, and yet the city built a series of structures that were dedicated towards killing dragons.  You get the distinct impression that Pavis was a sort of Second Age "Cold War Istanbul" where the EWF and Jrusteli both pushed their agendas, and Pavis was performing a balancing act between them.  Remember too that Delecti was a Jrusteli defector to the EWF, a veritable Kim Philby, choc full of Hero Quest secrets.

Edited by Darius West
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7 hours ago, Darius West said:

For example, is Pavis even really a god, or is his cult simply a school of sorcery, or a bit of column A and a bit of column B?

In HeroQuest, at least, the worship of Pavis grants no magic, but his cult teaches sorcery through grimoires. The same goes for Flintnail.

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5 hours ago, Leingod said:

In HeroQuest, at least, the worship of Pavis grants no magic, but his cult teaches sorcery through grimoires.

Pavis uses the Man Rune Affinity (Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p363) which would be rune magic in RQG.

 

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40 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Pavis uses the Man Rune Affinity (Pavis: Gateway to Adventure p363) which would be rune magic in RQG.

 

True, but it's specifically noted as being "a result of Lord Pavis's experiments in the Second Age" and it can only be used within the boundaries of Pavis (both Old and New) and only to do two things: placate beings who share the Man Rune, and reproduce with beings who share the Man Rune. Everything else you can learn from the Pavis cult is all sorcery.

So, even though Pavis does provide some kind of rune magic, it's noted as being this weird edge case that comes about as much from his weird EWF-inspired experiments as normal theistic sources. It's also notable that an affinity with the Man Rune (or any Rune) isn't at all necessary to become an initiate or even a devotee/priest in the Cult of Pavis.

Moreover, there's a box titled "Isn't This A Wizardry School Under the HeroQuest Rules?" in that cult write-up. And the very first word under that is "Yes."

Quote

Yes. Pavis is not a god that you can gain magic from by emulating. He is not a cosmic god or even a personal one; his cult is merely the social glue that holds the people of his city together. However, Pavis himself was a magically powerful magician attempting a Great Experiment with the support of the Third Council. His city was a sideline to that goal; a place where the Great Experiment could take place.

 

Edited by Leingod
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5 hours ago, Leingod said:

True, but it's specifically noted as being "a result of Lord Pavis's experiments in the Second Age" and it can only be used within the boundaries of Pavis (both Old and New) and only to do two things: placate beings who share the Man Rune, and reproduce with beings who share the Man Rune. Everything else you can learn from the Pavis cult is all sorcery.

Your original statement was "In HeroQuest, at least, the worship of Pavis grants no magic".  Do you concede that was wrong?

 

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3 hours ago, metcalph said:

Your original statement was "In HeroQuest, at least, the worship of Pavis grants no magic".  Do you concede that was wrong?

 

Yes, but that specific wording isn't really the important part to me. What I was trying to get at is that Pavis isn't considered a rune/divine cult in HeroQuest.

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On 6/21/2020 at 2:19 AM, Leingod said:

In HeroQuest, at least, the worship of Pavis grants no magic, but his cult teaches sorcery through grimoires. The same goes for Flintnail.

I am aware about the sorcery Pavis grants in HQ, and in fact I really like the idea, but it was not the case in RQ2. (Surprise surprise, there were no sorcery rules until RQ3).  The question remains somewhat open as to whether Pavis is now an actual god who gives divine magic, or whether his so-called cult is all just a sorcery school in RQG. 

Again this raises the issue of Iffinbix, the odd little earth cult that deals in sorcery and has strange little square temples that require the ingesting of Agipith root to enter safely.  Iffinbix seems to have involved the use of teleport magic to traverse the rubble when it was otherwise unsafe to do so, and gradually became taken over by vampires (Again with the vampires).  I fervently hope that any future RQ Pavis based write up answers a few questions about Iffinbix, and some of the other loose threads in Pavis, like the related little cults that never got a write up.

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Since Pavis:GtA, we've developed the background. Pavis is a good example of a worshipped entity returning Rune magic. In RQG he'll give city god Rune magic. The cult of Pavis isn't the same as Pavis's magical ability. (Think of it the same way as christianity - christianity wasn't the religion of jesus).

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On 6/16/2020 at 8:58 PM, Brootse said:

Are there tribes in Pavis area? Or do the characters originating from there get a Loyalty (city) instead?

There are no tribes in Pavis County. Loyalty beyond the clan is to the city of Pavis.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jeff said:

There are no tribes in Pavis County. Loyalty beyond the clan is to the city of Pavis.

What kind of power did the Pavis High Priest of Orlanth have over the clans during the Lunar occupation?

Edited by Brootse
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